Charismatics

[Yet]

I can see leaving if you need to because you are uncomfortable, but just be sure you understand that leaving to find God elsewhere almost never works.

Willie, I agree fully. God has left the building. Been saying it forever.

 

[Yet]

I think some things do get a bit out of hand, but I don't think I ever want to go back to a church that limits God to only what they have decided He is allowed to do. Been there, done that, and I don't want the "T" shirt.

Thats what I'm talking about!

 

[Willie-T]

Willie, I agree fully. God has left the building. Been saying it forever.

I think You may have gotten what I said, backward. We don't go someplace to find God. He finds us whenever we are thinking right, and let Him in.... even if we are sitting in a Muslim building.

 

[Willie-T]

Thats what I'm talking about!

But didn't you say you won't go to ANY church?

 

[shotgunner]

I didn't read every post but I think you guys are too worried about the worship not being Spiritual enough, whatever that means. Jesus said
Luke 10:27King James Version (KJV)[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

So, all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind, yet you are getting upset about worshipers getting too excited.

Let them worship as loud and boisterous as they want as long as they aren't attempting to put on a show to impress others. The Holy Spirit will let you know if that's going on and the pastor should correct it.

After worship, the word needs to be taught so that lives can be changed.

 

[dcontroversal]

Look...you want to know what a true chirch does when it meets...the people sat down and Jesus opened his mouth and taught them the word of God!

 

[Patnubay]

What are your thoughts on the Charismatic movement? The whole thing which can include lively worship, tongues, people being slain, laughing, crying, rolling about - you know the whole thing. My church is Charismatic but I am becoming increasingly uncomfortable with some of the "goings on" there, it's not as bad as some but it seems to be becoming more Charismatic. I love the lively worship, I believe that worship should be spontaneous, heartfelt and enthusiastic and at times I do get emotional but it's more personal for me - I don't feel the need to let everyone know. Some of the other stuff that goes on at times I'm not so enthused about. I have spoken to like-minded people at the church and we all seem to feel that we aren't "spiritual" enough but then at other times I wonder if it's all real. I think it can be but for sure not always and not everyone is always being real.

Please I respectfully ask to respect the opinions of all and keep this thread on topic and civilised, thank you.

I think this is the reason we have different kind of Churches. We are all different kind of people. Our preferences are different.
A Pastor I know well told me this: Different kind of Churches are like different kinds of chicken. Some are raised for their eggs, some are for their meat, some are for pets and some are just for anything. And as long as they remain "chicken"meaning "alive", when the flood comes, all of them will float and be raised as one.

 

[wattie]

Look...you want to know what a true chirch does when it meets...the people sat down and Jesus opened his mouth and taught them the word of God!

Yeah man..

So my church.. we will sing a few songs and then the pastor will get up.. open his bible up and refer to a book straight off.. eg.. 'turn to John 3' and then go thru a passage.

Congregation will look on attentively with their own bibles in hand following along.

Sometimes the pastor will prompt the congregation for answers from questions he has.

When the pastor has done his sermon.. then we sing one more song.

We then meet in the back and talk and socialise.

The younger people in the church will usually go out after church and continue fellowship. Older ones sometimes to.


And some charismatics will call this 'spiritually dry'

The faith is not in the emotional.. 'out-there' .. showiness..

It's deep inside.. that develops with endurance.. study and quietness with God.

So a church like mine may 'look' quiet.. old fashioned.. but what is going in the hearts of the congregation between them and God is an entirely different matter!

So what do I think of the charismatics..

I was one for a time... and then I tried New Age beliefs..

And now I am non-charismatic independent missionary baptist..

There wasn't a lot of difference experientially from the New Age and Charismatic beliefs. Differences in teaching? Ya.. differences in the emotional experience? Not much.

 

[Magenta]

I am non-charismatic independent missionary baptist.

That's a lot of syllalables.

 

[Willie-T]

The main emphasis with the Vineyard is worship. We sing our heads off. But, our particular congregation also happens to have one of the best preachers I have ever heard...... and at my age, that's a lot of "hearing."

 

[Dino246]

The church described in the OP sounds like a church I attended for a few years. We had all the craziness, and if there was a special speaker, more craziness arrived. That said, there were times when "crazy" things happened which brought good fruit, like when a man cried, wailed and snotted publicly for quite a while during a "service". Afterward he described what happened... he got set free of himself, and went on to be an effective and godly (and generally peaceful/rational/orderly) deacon in that congregation, and a much more loving person generally. That didn't happen with everyone who "acted out" though.

One thing to consider; our world is very disorderly when compared with God's holiness and perfect order; that's why we are called out of it. So when "crazy" things happen, we might pause to consider by whose perspective they are crazy... God's, or the world's. I don't hold for a second that God must use craziness to touch people, but He is not forbidden from doing so either. This is why there is need for godly oversight in the congregation, so that those who have shown themselves wise and faithful and who know their people can help discern what is going on. Not everyone will have developed their own discernment adequately.

There are many things which happened then (about 18 years ago) which I would not now affirm. There are some I would. If similar things happened in my congregation today, I might offer my experience to help the elders oversee them. Yes, the enemy can and often does get in and mix error with truth, and sometimes the error gets out of hand, but it is still God's church and He can do as He pleases. Even when it looks crazy to us.

 

[Magenta]

The main emphasis with the Vineyard is worship. We sing our heads off. But, our particular congregation also happens to have one of the best preachers I have ever heard...... and at my age, that's a lot of "hearing."

It was co-founded by one of the Righteous Brothers (John Wimber) for the very purpose of bringing worship and music/singing together

"The worship at Vineyard Christian Church combines modern music with the truths of God to provide an atmosphere where we are comfortable relating to God in a way that we’re familiar with. We sing and play loudly and passionately because we love God in a very personal way. Worship is a core value to us and so you will find that we include it in our weekend services, our community groups, and our special events."

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Oh boy,I hear the can of worms,opening now!! Well you're going to get a lot of people tearing up the charismatics. As Ive mentioned before here I use to travel and sing.I come from a Pentecostal background myself,AofG. But there are no name brands of Pentecostals and they kind of go hog wild.Not all,but some.For instance Benny Hinn was kicked out of the AofG fellowship because of some of his practices.

I grew up in a church in Canada that was AofG. We believed in tongues,we were lively in worship,once in a long while you'd see someone slain in the spirit but pretty normal.Well we had a pastor voted in that had a more charismatic view,less doctrine.Well talk about hog wild! People came from all these other churches and invaded our church.They were rolling on the floor,laughing like hyenas,they call it drunk in the spirit.They would lay on the floor acting like they were giving birth,which they called birthing something spiritual.We were stunned!! They were even praying for gold in their teeth.Needless to say the pastor was voted out after that debacle. Ive been all kinds of Pentecostal services and seen all kinds of things I tell ya.If they are independent you are usually going to see strange things going on. Sounds like your church may be the independent sort.If people are focusing on themselves and carrying on as you say I think you should find another church to worship in.Not all of us are nuts.

That nuttiness that you described sounds just like the first church that I attended for about 5 years when I first got saved about 27 years ago. Things got so bad there that they actually removed the first 5 rows of pews just so people could roll around on the floor laughing their heads off. Needless to say, I didn't find it the least bit funny and I tried to help to fix the problem (s) from within for a few years. Finally, the Lord told me to get out and I never looked back.

 

[Willie-T]

It was co-founded by one of the Righteous Brothers (John Wimber) for the very purpose of bringing worship and music/singing together

"The worship at Vineyard Christian Church combines modern music with the truths of God to provide an atmosphere where we are comfortable relating to God in a way that we’re familiar with. We sing and play loudly and passionately because we love God in a very personal way. Worship is a core value to us and so you will find that we include it in our weekend services, our community groups, and our special events."

Sort of....
Actually John did own part of their franchise, arranged for them, and sometimes played keyboard and clarinet in some of their songs. In the early days, quite a few California rock singers and instrumentalists attended the Vineyard.

 

[Jruiz]

I been raised in a Spirit filled church,so when I go to these quiet well regulated churches...its b-o-r-i-n-g....I wanna see God move and I never seen him move like in a Pentecostal church. To be honest I never seen anyone act too crazy like birthing on the floor lol. However there's this woman my mom knows who prances around at her woman's retreat with a wand in her hand and it drives my mom nuts. She feels like she just putting on a show for attention. So yes some people are not authentic.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

What are your thoughts on the Charismatic movement? The whole thing which can include lively worship, tongues, people being slain, laughing, crying, rolling about - you know the whole thing. My church is Charismatic but I am becoming increasingly uncomfortable with some of the "goings on" there, it's not as bad as some but it seems to be becoming more Charismatic. I love the lively worship, I believe that worship should be spontaneous, heartfelt and enthusiastic and at times I do get emotional but it's more personal for me - I don't feel the need to let everyone know. Some of the other stuff that goes on at times I'm not so enthused about. I have spoken to like-minded people at the church and we all seem to feel that we aren't "spiritual" enough but then at other times I wonder if it's all real. I think it can be but for sure not always and not everyone is always being real.

Please I respectfully ask to respect the opinions of all and keep this thread on topic and civilised, thank you.

In 17 verses in the New Testament, the underlying Greek word "charisma", from which we derive "charismatic", is translated as either "gift" or "gifts":

Greek Lexicon :: G5486 (KJV)

With such being the case, I definitely believe in that type of "charisma", but the question remains of whether or not the "charisma" manifesting within so many of these "charismatic" meetings matches the "charisma" of the Bible. In my estimation, based upon my own experiences and observations, I'd say that more often than not it doesn't match up. The Bible does warn of "another Jesus", "another gospel" and "another spirit" and I've personally found that the "Jesus" and the "gospel" which is being preached at many (most) of these meetings simply doesn't align itself with either the Jesus or the gospel as revealed in scripture. As such, it doesn't surprise me to find "another spirit" at work in such situations. I'm not denying that there are real "gifts" or real "charisma", but I simply don't believe that much of what transpires within today's churches is the real deal.

 

[lihle]

I also feel uncomfortable, some people seem to fake it or push it. Some make a lot noise and shout but you don't even get the message. And if you not is the same zone as them they see you as not Christian enough. I had an exeriance when someone was praying for me and she kept pushing me hard like wanting me to fall, I couldn't even focus on what was going on because I was busy trying to keep my balance well I couldn see that she was disappointed in me because people usually fall when she prays for them. So stay away form such, not because they not real or faked just because they make me uncorrectable. I think it's a good advice to find a church where you are comfortable and feel the sense of belonging.

 

[Kaycie]

God calls for orderly worship, that doesn't seem very orderly to me. Those who think that they can worship in however way feels right to them are being mislead. God is the only audience of worship, and it must go how He commanded it to be, otherwise He says "They worship Me in vain" (not resulting in salvation).

 

[crossnote]

Been to a Vineyard both morning (twice) and night (three times), when (1985)John Wimbur was pastoring in Anaheim, Ca..
The morning service was passable, the evening never got into the teaching due to the so caleed 'spirit falling' followed by swooning, braying, prophesying, person to person praying...if you went in the evening to hear God's Word chances are you wouldn't....overall, not impressed.

Been to a Living Waters when they were in Monterey Park, Ca. in '74 and '75 (now in Pasadena, Ca.) ok, danced and sang about 1 hour before the hour message then danced and sang for about 1 1/2 more...good fellowship afterwards.

Been to a Christ Chapel in Lawndale, Ca. (no longer exists) for about 8 years, teaching was ehh, so-so, tongues and prophesying and stuff, lots of egos running around, pastor ended up in a homosexual relationship leaving his wife and two children, sad.

Haven't been to a Charismatic Church now in 25 years, no love lost.

 

[MikkoAinasoja]

Think about David and how he danced before the Lord, how his wife criticized, and the consequences.


Having said that, the word must also go forth without hindrance.

There is only one part in the whole Bible where man of God has ever "dance"

When I see those dancing christians I feel shame for them, and I know that our Lord's name will come blasphemed, be cause of them, and it is wrong.

Our Lord's name should not come to subject of blasphemed because of us.