Obsession with Confession (1 John 1:9, sin confession)

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jul 4, 2015
648
6
0
OSAS is a Truth in the Scriptures. OSAS is all about True Christians who walk with God.

Now one has to ask by which sin we commit that takes away our Salvation? Salvation is based on two conditions only. One is by the Grace of God and the other is our Faith that Jesus Christ is God.

Ephesians 2:8 (
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God

Salvation is a Gift from God based on our Faith in His Son Jesus Christ. Salvation was NOT received by not sinning. The only way one can lose their Salvation is by losing their Faith that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

But once you stop believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God how then can you again believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

Once you lose your Salvation you can never receive it again. This is why OSAS is true because once you lose your Salvation you can never receive it again, its gone forever.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
OSAS is a Truth in the Scriptures. OSAS is all about True Christians who walk with God.

Now one has to ask by which sin we commit that takes away our Salvation? Salvation is based on two conditions only. One is by the Grace of God and the other is our Faith that Jesus Christ is God.

Ephesians 2:8 (
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God

Salvation is a Gift from God based on our Faith in His Son Jesus Christ. Salvation was NOT received by not sinning. The only way one can lose their Salvation is by losing their Faith that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

But once you stop believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God how then can you again believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

Once you lose your Salvation you can never receive it again. This is why OSAS is true because once you lose your Salvation you can never receive it again, its gone forever.
Salvation is "saved from sin."

The salvation you speak of is akin to some kind of ticket you think you possess because you have "faith in Jesus."

The reality though is that true faith in Jesus is an abiding state of walking in the light as he is in the light.

Saved by grace through faith is the mechanic by which we are quickened unto life through yielding ourselves wholeheartedly to the grace of God. In order to yield wholeheartedly one must lay aside all known wickedness in order to receive the implanted word within. This is why James connects this...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

...with this...

Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Two verses which are completely ignored by those in the false church system today. The false church system will never tell anyone that they MUST lay aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness because that would mean people have to HEAR AND DO and they simply cannot teach such a thing. Instead they view the death of Christ as providing a "provision" by which they are "saved IN sin" if they merely "trust in it." Hence they can contend for "faith in Jesus" and "believe" and at the same time be promoting rebellion to God.


Jesus came to literally save us FROM sin. Jesus did not come to save people IN sin.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The salvation of OSAS and even the salvation of much of what purports to be non-OSAS is no salvation at all. Being redeemed from all iniquity and being made pure, whereby we are made zealous of righteousness is utterly absent from theological system which promotes this false and absurd notion of being saved IN sin.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
 
Last edited:

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
981
113
34
If we confess our sins...1 John 1:9 is IN CONTRAST to 1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
Okay, but no one here is saying they do not sin, nor stating that they have no sin. They are actually stating they do have sin, however such sin is washed in the blood of Christ. They are saying if we are walking in the light then the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. They are coming in agreement with the Word of God.

How is it not clear that John is not speaking towards believers but addressing non-believers (though believers be in the audience)? He is proclaiming to someone outside of the fellowship, he is inviting them into that fellowship. It couldn't be any clearer, without even looking into the historical aspect of it all (in regards to Gnosticism).

[h=1]1 John 1:3King James Version (KJV)[/h]3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
It is the HEARERS AND DOERS whom have the love of God perfected in them.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Thus if one is not WALKING AS JESUS WALKED (walking in righteousness) and yet claims to know Jesus they are lying.

Life is to be found in WALKING AFTER THE SPIRIT...

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

The false gospel of this modern perversion of Christianity totally disconnects any WALK from SALVATION and that is why the churches are full of sin today. The people are comforted in their rebellion to God and taught that all they have to do is "trust in Jesus and the finished work of the cross" when Jesus himself clearly taught that one must HEAR AND DO.

Without HEAR AND DO there can be no quickening (Eph 2:5) of an individual by the grace of God which is why Paul taught that if one does not WORK TOGETHER WITH GOD then grace is received in vain (2Cor 6:1).
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
981
113
34
[/I]
[/B][/I][/I][/B][/B]How can people like you buy into that kind of rubbish so easily?

John 1:7 specifically states that IF WE WALK IN THE LIGHT (ie. conduct ourselves in accordance with the truth as opposed to conducting ourselves in rebellion to it) THEN we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

Your article twists the plain and obvious words of John and inserts "ARE SAVED" and COMPLETELY IGNORES the "IF WE WALK."



"To put it another way" means "let's pretend this verse says something else." John doesn't say anything remotely close to this "another way."

For you to uphold and promote this article, which is full of perverted twisting throughout, is simply proof that you do not believe the Bible. Instead you prefer the fiction and fantasy of "put it another way."
Hey Skinski7, can we take a moment to read over what you said and put two and two together? I don't know if you are missing the glaring issue with what you just said, but lets put it plainly. If we walk in the light the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. You agree? Right? So, let me ask you, does sin take you out of the light? If you are out of the light, how then does the blood of Christ cleanse you? Does not the verse say that in the light the blood of Christ cleanses you from all sin?

These are just some questions that may give you something to ponder. I understand that you are saying that there is a striving to be in the light, as we must walk in the light. I suppose we would need to ask you to define this striving and how one gets out of the light. It can't be sin, however, as sin is washed in the light by the blood of Christ. Keep that in mind. If sin is the means by which we are not walking in the light, how then can sin be cleansed in the light?

Looking forward to your response. :)
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
I think you have missed what "walking in the light" is. You seem to equate it as "rule keeping".


No I don't.

I clearly speak that we are to walk according to the Spirit by a faith that works by love by which we fulfill the righteousness of the law.

I challenge you to find a single post made by me that refers to "rule keeping." You won't be able to because I clearly do not advocate "rule keeping." In fact I have contended against "rule keeping" many times because "rule keeping" is EXTERNAL ONLY and the faith that God reckons as righteousness is INTERNAL.

Jesus taught that Pharisees (who were rule keeping advocates) that they must CLEANSE FIRST THAT WHICH IS WITHIN that the external may be clean also. In other words the message of the Bible has to do with the HEART not rule keeping.

So why is it that people like you will repeatedly refer to my contention of "walking in the light as he is in the light" (which I clearly emphasise as something we do via a faith that works by love in yielding wholeheartedly to the grace of God by which we are quickened) as "rule keeping."

Why twist my words into this "rule keeping" strawman? So many of you do it instead of directly responding to the points I make.

It is one thing to ignore me, it is quite another to manufacture fictions and address those fictions as if it is those fictions which I promote.



What IS "the light?" It is Jesus. What is "walking?" It is living your life.

They are talking about living "in Christ", not checking off a list of rules to follow.
That is right. Please show me where I have advocated anything else?

Living our life is how we conduct ourselves. We have to conduct ourselves in accordance with the light. To walk in opposition to the light is rebellion to God and there is no forgiveness of sin whilst one is in rebellion to God.


In other words (I know you hate that, but Jesus explained Scripture that way all the time.) it is a heart matter, not a regimented lifestyle.
I hate that? Really? Do you even read my posts?

Everything I write is in the context a HEART MATTER as opposed to a regimented lifestyle.
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
Okay, but no one here is saying they do not sin, nor stating that they have no sin. They are actually stating they do have sin, however such sin is washed in the blood of Christ. They are saying if we are walking in the light then the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. They are coming in agreement with the Word of God.

How is it not clear that John is not speaking towards believers but addressing non-believers (though believers be in the audience)? He is proclaiming to someone outside of the fellowship, he is inviting them into that fellowship. It couldn't be any clearer, without even looking into the historical aspect of it all (in regards to Gnosticism).

1 John 1:3King James Version (KJV)

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
John was head of seven or so churches. And He was writing to his churches that were not face to face with him.

He was writing this so the other churches(that were not face to face with him) could fellowship with his face to face congregation in Ephesus.

The oral tradition was turning into the written word.

Fellowship is for believers only. Unbelievers do not have fellowship with the Father. If John was addressing unbelievers he would gave them the gospel..........the carnal mind can only understand the Gospel.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
Hey Skinski7, can we take a moment to read over what you said and put two and two together? I don't know if you are missing the glaring issue with what you just said, but lets put it plainly. If we walk in the light the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. You agree? Right?
A WALK is how we conduct ourselves and is reflective of the true intent of our hearts.

God is willing to cleanse us of our past sins IF we come clean with God in repentance and faith. Hence we are to WALK in the light as He is in the light with no darkness at all. Jesus leads and we follow. We are to hear and do.

So, let me ask you, does sin take you out of the light?
Yes it does which is why sin (unto death), ie rebellion to God, has to be forsaken in repentance once and for all.

If you are out of the light, how then does the blood of Christ cleanse you?
It doesn't. There is no cleansing for anyone who refuses to WALK in the light. We have to repent.

Does not the verse say that in the light the blood of Christ cleanses you from all sin?
If you WALK in accordance with that light. Remember the condemnation is the rejection of light.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

We have to DO THE TRUTH and the light will make manifest our deeds that they are wrought in God (ie. we are conducting ourselves in accordance with the revealed light of God).

John is speaking of this...
No he is not. John is not speaking of an automatic cleansing of any sort irrespective of how you conduct yourself. John uses the term WALK which is a reference to how you conduct yourself.

We are set free from sin via obedience to the truth. If there is no obedience then there is no walking in the light, there is no cleansing from sin, nor is there any being set free from sin.

We have to approach God in repentance and faith and that is inclusive of confessing wickedness, forsaking wickedness, and yielding to God wholeheartedly.




These are just some questions that may give you something to ponder.
I ponder how you can so easily ignore the very plain meaning of the text and uphold utter absurdities.

I understand that you are saying that there is a striving to be in the light, as we must walk in the light. I suppose we would need to ask you to define this striving and how one gets out of the light.
One would leave the light simply by walking carnally as opposed to walking according to the Spirit. There is nothing complicated here.

It can't be sin, however, as sin is washed in the light by the blood of Christ.
The truth is that you don't want it to be sin because you believe in a PROVISIONAL CLEANSING disassociated from a PURE HEART. You want to believe in a PROVISIONAL CLEANSING which cannot be undone due to it being PURELY POSITIONAL. You are deceived.

God reckons faith as righteousness, a faith that works by love by which we uphold true righteousness. An individual engaged in rebellion to God does not have a faith that works by love and is therefore God does not reckon them as righteous.

Your problem is that you have bought, hook, line and sinker, into the modern false provisional salvation message rooted in Augustinian theology and the subsequent developments through the Reformation. That is why you will often refer to "articles" instead of engage directly from an understanding of Scripture.

Keep that in mind. If sin is the means by which we are not walking in the light, how then can sin be cleansed in the light?
Rebellion to God is the means by which we are not WALKING In the light. Is that not obvious?

If God reveals light to you and you refuse to WALK in accordance with the light then how can you claim to be cleansed in the light? Your contention is logically absurd.

The Bible is clear, we approach God in repentance and faith. Repentance is where our mind is changed via the crisis of conviction wrought by godly sorrow and faith is our walk whereby we are wholeheartedly yielded to the lead of God because we trust Him. If we approach God in this manner He is willing to forgive us of our past rebellion and not count it against us. We then have to endure in faithfulness to the end in order to inherit eternal life.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
I will quote a previous response I made to you Ben which clearly demonstrates your error.

See how you cling to the notion that "walk in the light" can be rephrased as "saved" whereby the notion of the WALK (ie. how we conduct ourselves) is removed?

Again it demonstrates that you want to believe in a cleansing which cloaks ongoing rebellion to God. In other words you want to believe that you can in fact sin and not surely die, the very first lie of Satan.

In order to believe that satanic lie you have to uphold the twisting of the Bible, thus you contend that "sin" (rebellion to God) does not remove one from the light, whereby you advocate a perpetual ongoing cleansing of the ongoing sin. Basically you believe in a "license to sin" although I doubt you would be so blunt about it.


Originally Posted by BenFTW




"If we walk
in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from all sin" (verse 7).
In other words, if we walk in the light (are saved) we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. To put it another way, once we are saved, we are permanently in the fellowship because the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from all sin. Therefore, we aren't forgiven because we confess our sins.We are forgiven because of what Christ did for us on the cross.
How can people like you buy into that kind of rubbish so easily?

John 1:7 specifically states that IF WE WALK IN THE LIGHT (ie. conduct ourselves in accordance with the truth as opposed to conducting ourselves in rebellion to it) THEN we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

Your article twists the plain and obvious words of John and inserts "ARE SAVED" and COMPLETELY IGNORES the "IF WE WALK."
To put it another way, once we are saved, we are permanently in the fellowship because the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from all sin.
"To put it another way" means "let's pretend this verse says something else." John doesn't say anything remotely close to this "another way."

For you to uphold and promote this article, which is full of perverted twisting throughout, is simply proof that you do not believe the Bible. Instead you prefer the fiction and fantasy of "put it another way."
 
S

shotgunner

Guest
A WALK is how we conduct ourselves and is reflective of the true intent of our hearts.

God is willing to cleanse us of our past sins IF we come clean with God in repentance and faith. Hence we are to WALK in the light as He is in the light with no darkness at all. Jesus leads and we follow. We are to hear and do.


Yes it does which is why sin (unto death), ie rebellion to God, has to be forsaken in repentance once and for all.


It doesn't. There is no cleansing for anyone who refuses to WALK in the light. We have to repent.



If you WALK in accordance with that light. Remember the condemnation is the rejection of light.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

We have to DO THE TRUTH and the light will make manifest our deeds that they are wrought in God (ie. we are conducting ourselves in accordance with the revealed light of God).


No he is not. John is not speaking of an automatic cleansing of any sort irrespective of how you conduct yourself. John uses the term WALK which is a reference to how you conduct yourself.

We are set free from sin via obedience to the truth. If there is no obedience then there is no walking in the light, there is no cleansing from sin, nor is there any being set free from sin.

We have to approach God in repentance and faith and that is inclusive of confessing wickedness, forsaking wickedness, and yielding to God wholeheartedly.




I ponder how you can so easily ignore the very plain meaning of the text and uphold utter absurdities.


One would leave the light simply by walking carnally as opposed to walking according to the Spirit. There is nothing complicated here.


The truth is that you don't want it to be sin because you believe in a PROVISIONAL CLEANSING disassociated from a PURE HEART. You want to believe in a PROVISIONAL CLEANSING which cannot be undone due to it being PURELY POSITIONAL. You are deceived.

God reckons faith as righteousness, a faith that works by love by which we uphold true righteousness. An individual engaged in rebellion to God does not have a faith that works by love and is therefore God does not reckon them as righteous.

Your problem is that you have bought, hook, line and sinker, into the modern false provisional salvation message rooted in Augustinian theology and the subsequent developments through the Reformation. That is why you will often refer to "articles" instead of engage directly from an understanding of Scripture.


Rebellion to God is the means by which we are not WALKING In the light. Is that not obvious?

If God reveals light to you and you refuse to WALK in accordance with the light then how can you claim to be cleansed in the light? Your contention is logically absurd.

The Bible is clear, we approach God in repentance and faith. Repentance is where our mind is changed via the crisis of conviction wrought by godly sorrow and faith is our walk whereby we are wholeheartedly yielded to the lead of God because we trust Him. If we approach God in this manner He is willing to forgive us of our past rebellion and not count it against us. We then have to endure in faithfulness to the end in order to inherit eternal life.
1 John 1:7King James Version (KJV)[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


1 John 1:7Amplified Bible (AMP)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if we [really] are living and walking in the Light, as He [Himself] is in the Light, we have [true, unbroken] fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses (removes) us from all sin and guilt [keeps us cleansed from sin in all its forms and manifestations].

1 John 1:7Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]and if in the light we may walk, as He is in the light -- we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son doth cleanse us from every sin;

You can read from every translation and they all say the same, that when we walk in the light, the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. If we had to have no sin to walk in the light, then there would be no reason to cleanse us from sin.

With your post above, you have truly fulfilled this scripture.
2 Corinthians 4:4King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
 
W

WoundedWarrior

Guest
See how you cling to the notion that "walk in the light" can be rephrased as "saved" whereby the notion of the WALK (ie. how we conduct ourselves) is removed?

Again it demonstrates that you want to believe in a cleansing which cloaks ongoing rebellion to God. In other words you want to believe that you can in fact sin and not surely die, the very first lie of Satan.

In order to believe that satanic lie you have to uphold the twisting of the Bible, thus you contend that "sin" (rebellion to God) does not remove one from the light, whereby you advocate a perpetual ongoing cleansing of the ongoing sin. Basically you believe in a "license to sin" although I doubt you would be so blunt about it.
Skinski -

How is a "perpetual ongoing cleansing of the ongoing sin" equivalent to a "license to sin" by your understanding?

Do you understand that we disagree with your interpretation of our understanding of sin and salvation?
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
You can read from every translation and they all say the same, that when we walk in the light, the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. If we had to have no sin to walk in the light, then there would be no reason to cleanse us from sin.
The sin in question is PAST SIN, not ongoing present rebellion to God. We all have PAST SIN and we have to come clean about it.

The Bible is very clear on this issue...

Approaching God in repentance and faith, ie. coming clean with God.
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The cleansing is a ONE TIME cleansing as opposed to being an ongoing cleansing of ongoing rebellion.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


The statement of "if we say we have no sin" is in the context of "denying that one ever sinned." It is not John teaching that everyone is perpetually in rebellion to God. John also wrote...

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

People like you Shotgun ignore what John writes elsewhere. Instead you rip 1Joh 1:8-9 out of its context and use it as a proof text for perpetual ongoing rebellion to God. To do that is dishonest.

The true children of God are MANIFEST in that they do not sin (sin willfully) but instead DO RIGHTEOUSNESS. John is not contradicting himself because 1Joh 1:8-9 is a reference to PAST SIN not present ongoing sin.

We have to WALK as Jesus walked.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1Jn 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
1Jn 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jn 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

They key here is LOVE.

He that loveth his brother abideth in the light. The message we have heard from the beginning is that we should love one another.

The children of God LOVE and love negates rebellion to God. One cannot love God and be in rebellion to God at the same time. God is willing to forgive us of our PAST SIN if we confess our sin and forsake our sin. To walk in the light is to simply yield ourselves to God.

We MUST yield ourselves wholeheartedly to God. Those who refuse to do so simply have not repented.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
981
113
34
A WALK is how we conduct ourselves and is reflective of the true intent of our hearts.

God is willing to cleanse us of our past sins IF we come clean with God in repentance and faith. Hence we are to WALK in the light as He is in the light with no darkness at all. Jesus leads and we follow. We are to hear and do.


Yes it does which is why sin (unto death), ie rebellion to God, has to be forsaken in repentance once and for all.


It doesn't. There is no cleansing for anyone who refuses to WALK in the light. We have to repent.



If you WALK in accordance with that light. Remember the condemnation is the rejection of light.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

We have to DO THE TRUTH and the light will make manifest our deeds that they are wrought in God (ie. we are conducting ourselves in accordance with the revealed light of God).


No he is not. John is not speaking of an automatic cleansing of any sort irrespective of how you conduct yourself. John uses the term WALK which is a reference to how you conduct yourself.

We are set free from sin via obedience to the truth. If there is no obedience then there is no walking in the light, there is no cleansing from sin, nor is there any being set free from sin.

We have to approach God in repentance and faith and that is inclusive of confessing wickedness, forsaking wickedness, and yielding to God wholeheartedly.




I ponder how you can so easily ignore the very plain meaning of the text and uphold utter absurdities.


One would leave the light simply by walking carnally as opposed to walking according to the Spirit. There is nothing complicated here.


The truth is that you don't want it to be sin because you believe in a PROVISIONAL CLEANSING disassociated from a PURE HEART. You want to believe in a PROVISIONAL CLEANSING which cannot be undone due to it being PURELY POSITIONAL. You are deceived.

God reckons faith as righteousness, a faith that works by love by which we uphold true righteousness. An individual engaged in rebellion to God does not have a faith that works by love and is therefore God does not reckon them as righteous.

Your problem is that you have bought, hook, line and sinker, into the modern false provisional salvation message rooted in Augustinian theology and the subsequent developments through the Reformation. That is why you will often refer to "articles" instead of engage directly from an understanding of Scripture.


Rebellion to God is the means by which we are not WALKING In the light. Is that not obvious?

If God reveals light to you and you refuse to WALK in accordance with the light then how can you claim to be cleansed in the light? Your contention is logically absurd.

The Bible is clear, we approach God in repentance and faith. Repentance is where our mind is changed via the crisis of conviction wrought by godly sorrow and faith is our walk whereby we are wholeheartedly yielded to the lead of God because we trust Him. If we approach God in this manner He is willing to forgive us of our past rebellion and not count it against us. We then have to endure in faithfulness to the end in order to inherit eternal life.
I see how to address this. The error is in the assumption that the blood of Christ cleanses us of only past sins. That is where you are getting this idea of repentance and of being clean instead of always being clean because you are in Jesus Christ. Rather than holding to the reality as Jesus as High Priest you would rather mimic the sacrifices of Israel with your sin confession. The idea is fresh sin equals fresh blood. Each year a covering of the sin, until next year. So similar to the concept of sin confession, whereby you wish to sin and repent. Sin and then repent. Instead of resting in the reality that is the finished work of the cross whereby Jesus took sin away once and for all.

I think you should give Hebrews a read. See Jesus as High Priest, who is able to save us completely as he is always interceding on our behalf. If He is always interceding on our behalf that means even into eternity we are secure. Not only secure in arriving there, but residing there (Hebrews 7:25).
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
Skinski -

How is a "perpetual ongoing cleansing of the ongoing sin" equivalent to a "license to sin" by your understanding?
A license to sin is simply any notion that one can engage in rebellion to God and not be condemned for it.

Modern theology basically teaches "sin you will and sin you must" due to the "born a sinner" false teaching and thus the gospel message has to be twisted into a cloak for the ongoing sin.

I'll make it even clearer with a question to you. If you engage in an act of sexual immorality (porn watching for example) would you be under condemnation?

If you believe you can engage in wickedness and not be under condemnation then you would have to believe that you have a license to engage in wickedness and not be condemned. The modern presentation of Jesus us such a sin license because the cross is perceived as providing a PROVISIONAL CLOAK as opposed to the truth of a MEANS by which we can approach God.


Do you understand that we disagree with your interpretation of our understanding of sin and salvation?
You are forced to disagree with it because to acknowledge what I say is true would undermine everything you believe in. Your world would unravel.

Yet my claims are factual and they stand very stark in the fact that not a single person chooses to address them directly. People instead prefer to either ignore me or create fictional strawmen which they then address, strawmen like "law keeping" or "saving yourself" or "not trusting Jesus" and many others.
 
W

WoundedWarrior

Guest
We MUST yield ourselves wholeheartedly to God. Those who refuse to do so simply have not repented.
My tummy grumbled just before lunch hour, I ate some food and the hunger feeling went away.

Just before dinner time, the grumbly hunger feeling came back.
 
S

shotgunner

Guest
The sin in question is PAST SIN, not ongoing present rebellion to God. We all have PAST SIN and we have to come clean about it.

The Bible is very clear on this issue...

Approaching God in repentance and faith, ie. coming clean with God.
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The cleansing is a ONE TIME cleansing as opposed to being an ongoing cleansing of ongoing rebellion.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


The statement of "if we say we have no sin" is in the context of "denying that one ever sinned." It is not John teaching that everyone is perpetually in rebellion to God. John also wrote...

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

People like you Shotgun ignore what John writes elsewhere. Instead you rip 1Joh 1:8-9 out of its context and use it as a proof text for perpetual ongoing rebellion to God. To do that is dishonest.

The true children of God are MANIFEST in that they do not sin (sin willfully) but instead DO RIGHTEOUSNESS. John is not contradicting himself because 1Joh 1:8-9 is a reference to PAST SIN not present ongoing sin.

We have to WALK as Jesus walked.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1Jn 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
1Jn 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jn 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

They key here is LOVE.

He that loveth his brother abideth in the light. The message we have heard from the beginning is that we should love one another.

The children of God LOVE and love negates rebellion to God. One cannot love God and be in rebellion to God at the same time. God is willing to forgive us of our PAST SIN if we confess our sin and forsake our sin. To walk in the light is to simply yield ourselves to God.

We MUST yield ourselves wholeheartedly to God. Those who refuse to do so simply have not repented.
We MUST yield ourselves wholeheartedly to God. Those who refuse to do so simply have not repented
This I agree with, but it however does not mean that we will never sin while yielded.


In your explanation above you have disagreed with yourself. Let me show you how.
You say.
"The sin in question is PAST SIN, not ongoing present rebellion to God. We all have PAST SIN and we have to come clean about it."

you say
God is willing to cleanse us of our past sins IF we come clean with God in repentance and faith. Hence we are to WALK in the light as He is in the light with no darkness at all. Jesus leads and we follow. We are to hear and do.
Yet the scripture says that if we walk in the light His blood cleanses us from all sins


You also say.
A WALK is how we conduct ourselves and is reflective of the true intent of our hearts.

Now look at the scripture again.
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

It says, according to you, that if we conduct ourselves in the light, which according to you is to walk without sin, then the blood of Christ cleanses us from sin. How can his blood cleanse us from sin that you say we cannot have to walk in the light?

This isn't speaking of past sins but our walk, which you say is how we conduct ourselves.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
I see how to address this.
No you don't and I will unpack your words again. Also note that you don't directly respond to anything I wrote but only allude to it in a very vague manner. Your theological framework is a house of cards and it collapses when the foundation removed.

The error is in the assumption that the blood of Christ cleanses us of only past sins.
It is not an assumption, it is the truth.

The blood of Jesus Christ PURGES us of our past sin once and for all.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Our conscience is purged from our previous conduct once and for all in order that we may serve the living God.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

It is old sins that are purged, not new ones.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

It is past sins that are remitted.

You don't want to believe that, instead you want to believe that all sins, past, present and future are covered. You want to believe that because you believe in a CLOAK FOR SIN which is simply the PROVISION you think Jesus effected on your behalf on the cross (ie. you think Jesus paid your sin debt).


That is where you are getting this idea of repentance and of being clean instead of always being clean because you are in Jesus Christ.
Repentance in the Bible involves a clearing of wrongdoing resulting in purity. In other words the iniquity in the heart is destroyed once and for all. Here the scriptural proof...

Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

The word for "clear" means PURE. We are to come before God in repentance (whereby the iniquity within has been purged) whom is then willing to purge us of our past sins. That is what the Bible teaches. You don't want to believe that.

"Being IN Jesus Christ" is an ABIDING STATE OF WALKING ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT, which is why Paul connects "no condemnation" to "walking according to the Spirit and not walking according to the flesh."

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Your doctrine makes an allowance for being able to walk according to the flesh and not be under condemnation.

Rather than holding to the reality as Jesus as High Priest you would rather mimic the sacrifices of Israel with your sin confession.
That is you twisting my words and implying something I have not stated.

Jesus Christ is our high priest but He is not a high priest whom provides a cover for ongoing rebellion to God. Jesus is the mediator between God and man and in order to partake in the reconciliation process we have to come clean with God in not only in confessing wickedness but forsaking wickedness to.

Why do people like you have such an issue with the notion of having to forsake rebellion to God? The Bible teaches that we have to forsake wickedness from cover to cover, yet people like you despise such a notion. Why is that?

The idea is fresh sin equals fresh blood. Each year a covering of the sin, until next year. So similar to the concept of sin confession, whereby you wish to sin and repent. Sin and then repent. Instead of resting in the reality that is the finished work of the cross whereby Jesus took sin away once and for all.
The finished work of the cross is not a provision you rest in whilst you continue to engage in rebellion to God. That notion is a myth.

Jesus died for this reason...

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

Jesus died so you can enter into the New Covenant through repentance and faith and be reconciled to God.

Rebellion to God is out of the question for anyone who enters into the New Covenant. To argue in favour of being able to spit in the face of God and still remain clean is utterly absurd.

I think you should give Hebrews a read.
I think you should give Hebrews a read because it does not teach anything remotely close to what you are implying.

See Jesus as High Priest, who is able to save us completely as he is always interceding on our behalf. If He is always interceding on our behalf that means even into eternity we are secure. Not only secure in arriving there, but residing there (Hebrews 7:25).
That verse says...

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

In other words the mercy seat is open to anyone who will come unto God by Jesus Christ. One does not come to God by Jesus Christ still in rebellion to God, it is through repentance and faith. That verse says nothing of being able to sin and not surely die, you just rip it from its context and attempt to utilise it as such. Why do you do that?

You contention is that you can in fact sin willfully and still have a remaining sacrifice which continually cleanses you and thus you cannot come under condemnation.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

You obviously do not really believe the Bible.
 
W

WoundedWarrior

Guest
WoundedWarrior said:
Skinski -

How is a "perpetual ongoing cleansing of the ongoing sin" equivalent to a "license to sin" by your understanding?
A license to sin is simply any notion that one can engage in rebellion to God and not be condemned for it.

Modern theology basically teaches "sin you will and sin you must" due to the "born a sinner" false teaching and thus the gospel message has to be twisted into a cloak for the ongoing sin.

I'll make it even clearer with a question to you. If you engage in an act of sexual immorality (porn watching for example) would you be under condemnation?

If you believe you can engage in wickedness and not be under condemnation then you would have to believe that you have a license to engage in wickedness and not be condemned. The modern presentation of Jesus us such a sin license because the cross is perceived as providing a PROVISIONAL CLOAK as opposed to the truth of a MEANS by which we can approach God.
A "license to sin" implies that one can sin whenever and without ever needing to repent -- this understanding is the same as your understanding (above). However, I cannot agree with your accusations against "modern theology" -- I consider myself to be modern and hear modern theology preached during worship services and I have never heard a preacher imply that the modern Christian holds a license to sin. Furthermore, I have yet to see a single person on CC who holds this view. Yet I see you and others challenging people, as if they do.

To answer your question (above): Yes -- I would need to repent once I realized my sin.

WoundedWarrior said:
Do you understand that we disagree with your interpretation of our understanding of sin and salvation?
You are forced to disagree with it because to acknowledge what I say is true would undermine everything you believe in. Your world would unravel.

Yet my claims are factual and they stand very stark in the fact that not a single person chooses to address them directly. People instead prefer to either ignore me or create fictional strawmen which they then address, strawmen like "law keeping" or "saving yourself" or "not trusting Jesus" and many others.
I'm not asking if you understand that we disagree with you -- I am asking if you understand that we disagree with YOUR INTERPRETATION of our belief.
 
Feb 26, 2015
737
7
0
Its interesting Skinski7 that you advocate Salvation by Works. If Salvation is received by doing what James 1:21,22 says then how do you explain the Thief on the Cross entering into Heaven?

Luke 23:39-43
[SUP]39 [/SUP] Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us."
[SUP]40 [/SUP] But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?
[SUP]41 [/SUP] And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong."
[SUP]42 [/SUP] Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
[SUP]43 [/SUP] And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

The Thief did no Works, he was NOT Baptized, but yet he entered into Heaven.

It sounds to me you are teaching what the Corrupted Catholic Church loves to teach and that is Salvation by our own Works.