The Absolutism of Verb Tense

[dcontroversal]

One thing I have noticed on this site as well as with people I have dealt with is the simple rejection of verb tense so as to hold onto a doctrine that is false. God inspired every word of the bible as originally written primarily in Hebrew and Koine Greek. The verb tenses applied in the bible have been INSPIRED by God and cannot, yea must not be chunked under the table so as to espouse any one doctrine. If the verb tense does not jive with your theology, then your theology is flawed or in error....There are numerous examples found throughout scriptures where verb tense is rejected in favor of a flawed doctrine....The present tense application of "HAS" and "HATH" as applied unto salvation, eternal life, justification and sanctification is one example of how verb tense is rejected when it comes to the current possession of the 4 listed....

When it comes to the coming (parousia) I.E. Body presence of Christ the bible is clear on this as well....In Revelation we find the following as applied unto Christ..

WAS<---Past tense
Is<------Present tense
IS to COME<---Future Tense

There is but ONE coming of JESUS left and ALL things written must JIVE with his ONE coming that was yet future when John under inspiration penned the Book of Revelation.....

It is a crying shame that many are led astray by false teachers who reject the verb tenses that have been inspired by God....John 3:16 is one such example....the verb tense used indicates a present continuing result from a past completed action!

Those who have exercised saving faith (Whosoever believes in Him) should not be perishing, but is HAVING everlasting life...

I had everlasting life when I believed
I have everlasting life right now
I will continue to have everlasting life into the future

ALL based upon the continuing result of my past completed action<---I believed in HIM!

 

[wattie]

One thing I have noticed on this site as well as with people I have dealt with is the simple rejection of verb tense so as to hold onto a doctrine that is false. God inspired every word of the bible as originally written primarily in Hebrew and Koine Greek. The verb tenses applied in the bible have been INSPIRED by God and cannot, yea must not be chunked under the table so as to espouse any one doctrine. If the verb tense does not jive with your theology, then your theology is flawed or in error....There are numerous examples found throughout scriptures where verb tense is rejected in favor of a flawed doctrine....The present tense application of "HAS" and "HATH" as applied unto salvation, eternal life, justification and sanctification is one example of how verb tense is rejected when it comes to the current possession of the 4 listed....

When it comes to the coming (parousia) I.E. Body presence of Christ the bible is clear on this as well....In Revelation we find the following as applied unto Christ..

WAS<---Past tense
Is<------Present tense
IS to COME<---Future Tense

There is but ONE coming of JESUS left and ALL things written must JIVE with his ONE coming that was yet future when John under inspiration penned the Book of Revelation.....

It is a crying shame that many are led astray by false teachers who reject the verb tenses that have been inspired by God....John 3:16 is one such example....the verb tense used indicates a present continuing result from a past completed action!

Those who have exercised saving faith (Whosoever believes in Him) should not be perishing, but is HAVING everlasting life...

I had everlasting life when I believed
I have everlasting life right now
I will continue to have everlasting life into the future

ALL based upon the continuing result of my past completed action<---I believed in HIM!

Yeah this is one of things about the KJV that gives it great credentials for study, is the thees, thous, hath, cometh, haveth etc.. actually give more specific context than modern English.

Many of the words look on the surface to be one their own eg.. believeth.. but actually is along the lines of 'is believing'.. which is more akin to the way the Greek word works.

 

[posthuman]

Yeah this is one of things about the KJV that gives it great credentials for study, is the thees, thous, hath, cometh, haveth etc.. actually give more specific context than modern English.

Many of the words look on the surface to be one their own eg.. believeth.. but actually is along the lines of 'is believing'.. which is more akin to the way the Greek word works.

what you point out here is one particular reason i like to look at Young's Literal Translation -- for example,

for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
(John 3:16, YLT)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(KJV)


​

 

[Galahad]

This subject of verbs...I get nervous, tense.

 

[Gr8grace]

One thing I have noticed on this site as well as with people I have dealt with is the simple rejection of verb tense so as to hold onto a doctrine that is false. God inspired every word of the bible as originally written primarily in Hebrew and Koine Greek. The verb tenses applied in the bible have been INSPIRED by God and cannot, yea must not be chunked under the table so as to espouse any one doctrine. If the verb tense does not jive with your theology, then your theology is flawed or in error....There are numerous examples found throughout scriptures where verb tense is rejected in favor of a flawed doctrine....The present tense application of "HAS" and "HATH" as applied unto salvation, eternal life, justification and sanctification is one example of how verb tense is rejected when it comes to the current possession of the 4 listed....

When it comes to the coming (parousia) I.E. Body presence of Christ the bible is clear on this as well....In Revelation we find the following as applied unto Christ..

WAS<---Past tense
Is<------Present tense
IS to COME<---Future Tense

There is but ONE coming of JESUS left and ALL things written must JIVE with his ONE coming that was yet future when John under inspiration penned the Book of Revelation.....

It is a crying shame that many are led astray by false teachers who reject the verb tenses that have been inspired by God....John 3:16 is one such example....the verb tense used indicates a present continuing result from a past completed action!

Those who have exercised saving faith (Whosoever believes in Him) should not be perishing, but is HAVING everlasting life...

I had everlasting life when I believed
I have everlasting life right now
I will continue to have everlasting life into the future

ALL based upon the continuing result of my past completed action<---I believed in HIM!

Oh, the Greek. You are spot on. The Greek will clear up a WHOOOLLLLLEEEEEEEE lot of misconception,preconceived ideas and religion we have in Christianity.

The Greek is exact and is hard to squirm out of. We can still squirm out of it, but we most likely are not being honest.

If we want to know the truth..............we can know it, but it takes work and diligent study.


90% of my study is unlearning what I thought I knew or what religion pounded into my head.

 

[dcontroversal]

This subject of verbs...I get nervous, tense.

HAHAH pun intended hey!

 

[Angela53510]

You are totally correct! Verb tenses count, but so do noun cases in Greek. And the root and the verb forms in Hebrew which are quite different than English, in some ways.

I have learned so much from studying the original languages. As for KJV, not so much. I would rather read the Bible in French, which still hangs onto 2 person singular! KJV has too many archaic words, and besides, I still have never learned to conjugate verbs in early modern English, so all those haths and believeths mean nothing to me.

Loving this post!

 

[Willie-T]

Oh, the Greek. You are spot on. The Greek will clear up a WHOOOLLLLLEEEEEEEE lot of misconception,preconceived ideas and religion we have in Christianity.

The Greek is exact and is hard to squirm out of. We can still squirm out of it, but we most likely are not being honest.

If we want to know the truth..............we can know it, but it takes work and diligent study.


90% of my study is unlearning what I thought I knew or what religion pounded into my head.

A double AMEN!

 

[Dino246]

This prompts a thought: ever wonder why God chose Hebrew and Koine Greek? I suspect this thread is on the right track. English can be precise, but it can also be confusing with all its double meanings and exceptions. Thanks for this!

 

[crossnote]

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Joh 3:16)

"For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not be lost but have eternal life. (Joh 3:16)

Only thing is 'hath/has' is in the present tense but so is 'believeth/believes' is also in the present tense, so the argument is..
"It doesn't say whoever 'believed' but 'believes', therefore you must continually believe in order to have eternal life"

So sometimes we must go elsewhere in addition to verb tenses or one verse to make our case.

 

[wattie]

Only thing is 'hath/has' is in the present tense but so is 'believeth/believes' is also in the present tense, so the argument is..
"It doesn't say whoever 'believed' but 'believes', therefore you must continually believe in order to have eternal life"

So sometimes we must go elsewhere in addition to verb tenses or one verse to make our case.

Yeah this is a very common objection bought up by people who believe in everlasting life given only when you die, and not when you receive Christ as saviour.

They will say.. AH HA ! Look! 'Continues to believe....!'

Course.. they miss the part of HATH everlasting life.

But yes.. it does need to be put with other scripture to support it when people bring up 'this means is continuing to believe!'

My pastor put it to me that this really means the person's spirit.. once sealed by the Holy Spirit.. is 'always believing' 'continuing to believe'

This would harmonise with other verses that talk about the Holy Spirit keeping our salvation.

 

[Gr8grace]

Only thing is 'hath/has' is in the present tense but so is 'believeth/believes' is also in the present tense, so the argument is..
"It doesn't say whoever 'believed' but 'believes', therefore you must continually believe in order to have eternal life"

So sometimes we must go elsewhere in addition to verb tenses or one verse to make our case.

maybe Angela will jump in Here.

IMO, we can't use this verse to prove that we need to continually believe and we can't use this verse to prove that the moment one believes one is saved......Acts 16:31 with the aorist tense of believe proves that the moment we believe we are saved.

In John 3:16 the reason believe is in the present tense and may have eternal life is in the subjunctive mood is because "that" makes this a purpose clause.

John 3:16 is not talking about the condition of the believer or stating the present condition of the believer, " So that" introduces the PURPOSE of God sending His Son. May have eternal life is in the subjunctive mood because the indicative mood can't be used in a purpose clause. Because God is stating the reason or purpose or probability of what He will accomplish by sending His Son.

God is stating His purpose for sending us His Son. Not the present condition of a particular believer.

 

[crossnote]

Yeah this is a very common objection bought up by people who believe in everlasting life given only when you die, and not when you receive Christ as saviour.

They will say.. AH HA ! Look! 'Continues to believe....!'

Course.. they miss the part of HATH everlasting life.

But yes.. it does need to be put with other scripture to support it when people bring up 'this means is continuing to believe!'

My pastor put it to me that this really means the person's spirit.. once sealed by the Holy Spirit.. is 'always believing' 'continuing to believe'

This would harmonise with other verses that talk about the Holy Spirit keeping our salvation.

You, too, have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed in the Messiah, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
(Eph 1:13)

is a good example where 'believed' is an active aorist participle and 'sealed' is a passive aorist participle.
There are no verses pointing to God 'unsealing' us.

 

[Gr8grace]

And Crossnote, I understand what you were saying. I was just elaborating or running on your thought.

post #12

 

[crossnote]

And Crossnote, I understand what you were saying. I was just elaborating or running on your thought.

post #12

I didn't see yours until after I posted my response to Wattie.Thx, very informative.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Only thing is 'hath/has' is in the present tense but so is 'believeth/believes' is also in the present tense, so the argument is..
"It doesn't say whoever 'believed' but 'believes', therefore you must continually believe in order to have eternal life"

So sometimes we must go elsewhere in addition to verb tenses or one verse to make our case.

Which, of course, is supported by verses such as these:

"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (Colossians 1:21-23)

"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." (Hebrews 3:6-15)

Let the Greek and scriptural gymnastics begin...

 

[wattie]

Which, of course, is supported by verses such as these:

"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (Colossians 1:21-23)

"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." (Hebrews 3:6-15)

Let the Greek and scriptural gymnastics begin...

Both passages are warnings not to return to old ways. Not about eternal damnation if they fail. Colossians.. I think may have been infected by nostics.. so they were warned to remain in Christ.

Hebrews..they were into Judaism and were starting out in the Christian faith..they were warned not to go back into that.

The consequences for going back.. God turns His face from them.. but they as individuals would still have the seal of the Holy Spirit.

As Crossnote pointed out-- you have no verse at all speaking of 'un-sealing'

 

[posthuman]

Which, of course, is supported by verses such as these:

"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (Colossians 1:21-23)

"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." (Hebrews 3:6-15)

Let the Greek and scriptural gymnastics begin...

Both passages are warnings not to return to old ways. Not about eternal damnation if they fail. Colossians.. I think may have been infected by nostics.. so they were warned to remain in Christ.

Hebrews..they were into Judaism and were starting out in the Christian faith..they were warned not to go back into that.

The consequences for going back.. God turns His face from them.. but they as individuals would still have the seal of the Holy Spirit.

As Crossnote pointed out-- you have no verse at all speaking of 'un-sealing'

both are conditioning on continuing in the 'hope' and 'confidence' of the gospel too -- not in 'works' but faith in the One who has done the one work that saves us

 

[JesusistheChrist]

As "prophesied", the scriptural gymnastics have begun. The Hebrews passage, contextually, has absolutely nothing to do with returning to Judaism as wattie alleged. Instead, it has everything to do with Hebrew Christians being warned not to commit the same types of sins which their forefathers committed after God had delivered them from bondage. You know, sins like idolatry, murmuring, fornication, tempting Christ, etc., etc. Furthermore, spare me the nonsense of how the consequence of doing the same was merely having God turn His face from them. Again, contextually, the consequence was having God swear in His wrath that they would not enter into His rest.

Who said that a seal cannot be broken? You? Reality says otherwise. And what are we sealed with? The earnest of the Spirit. "Earnest" is a real estate term which speaks of the initial downpayment from somebody who "earnestly" expects to complete the purchase in the future. Who said that "earnest money" cannot be returned to the buyer? You? Again, reality says otherwise. In fact, I've personally had "earnest money" returned to me IN FULL twice in just the last five years.

 

[dcontroversal]

This prompts a thought: ever wonder why God chose Hebrew and Koine Greek? I suspect this thread is on the right track. English can be precise, but it can also be confusing with all its double meanings and exceptions. Thanks for this!

A few reasons....the fact that the Koine Greek is a dead language assures the N.T. as originally written cannot be changed and the fact that the languages are both so emphatic and reflective....very colorful and expressive.....God knows exactly what he is doing....