Rich and Famous Pastors

[Patnubay]

My experience has been that the HolySpirit is able to grow the believer in spite of the imperfect world we live in. To expect preachers and teachers to be perfect is a wrong expectation for anyone to have. Sooner or later the people fail us and we are devastated for a time. We have all gone through this at one time or another. It magnifies the perfection of Jesus and how He is the only one we can truly count on to always be right and all good at all times.

Our family was in a legalistic church that had a bunch of "bones" that we choked on but we survived and moved on. Some people argued that Billy Graham was not good because he didn't always send new Christians to a church after they got saved so they could grow in the faith., Billy Graham did the work of an evangelist and he did it very well and many people were saved and are still being saved because of this man.

There is no way to avoid imperfect people especially when we expect perfection. To think there are perfect people is just setting yourself and others up for a fall. If Billy Graham isn't good enough for some., how high are our expectations for people? Only God can meet our expectations for perfection. P.S. and don't look in the mirror!!

I think what people are trying to point out is not about looking for perfection in a preacher but rather trying to filter from whom people should listen. And sometimes you can't blame these people for being careful ( not judgmental ) because the Bible asked us to be so.

Matthew 7:15 (NKJV)

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

 

[shotgunner]

I think what people are trying to point out is not about looking for perfection in a preacher but rather trying to filter from whom people should listen. And sometimes you can't blame these people for being careful ( not judgmental ) because the Bible asked us to be so.

Matthew 7:15 (NKJV)


15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

Absolutely, but at the same time you need to be open to new ideas about scripture that your previous traditions might not have had. It's real simple. Don't be opposed to new teaching, but at the same time check it out by scripture and the leading of the Holy Spirit. Some things you have to think about and pray about for a while, but you might miss out of you are too stubborn and set in your own thinking to ever change.

 

[Stephen63]

My experience has been that the HolySpirit is able to grow the believer in spite of the imperfect world we live in. To expect preachers and teachers to be perfect is a wrong expectation for anyone to have. Sooner or later the people fail us and we are devastated for a time. We have all gone through this at one time or another. It magnifies the perfection of Jesus and how He is the only one we can truly count on to always be right and all good at all times.

Our family was in a legalistic church that had a bunch of "bones" that we choked on but we survived and moved on. Some people argued that Billy Graham was not good because he didn't always send new Christians to a church after they got saved so they could grow in the faith., Billy Graham did the work of an evangelist and he did it very well and many people were saved and are still being saved because of this man.

There is no way to avoid imperfect people especially when we expect perfection. To think there are perfect people is just setting yourself and others up for a fall. If Billy Graham isn't good enough for some., how high are our expectations for people? Only God can meet our expectations for perfection. P.S. and don't look in the mirror!!

Preachers can have bad doctrine in their beliefs..... but over time & with spiritual growth, many are discarded. Not with Graham..... He taught in the 60's till he retired that people can be saved in other religions & without knowing Christ.

This is NOT just a little "imperfection" in his doctrine..... It's total heresy to say one can get to heaven without knowing Jesus Christ.

Quotes by Graham over the years:

On the Phil Donahue show on 10-11-79, he said that pope John Paul II was someone that he could quote with "some real authority." He also said that the world was looking for a spiritual leader and that the pope didn't pull any punches.

The Lutheran Standard in October 1967....."I do believe that something happens at the baptism of an infant... we cannot fully understand the mysteries of God, but I believe that a miracle can happen in these children so that they are regenerated, that is, MADE CHRISTIAN, THROUGH INFANT BAPTISM."

The Orlando Sentinel, April 10, 1983....."I think people have a hard time believing God is going to allow people to burn in literal fire forever. I think the fire that is mentioned in the Bible is a burning thirst for God that can never be quenched."

United Church Observer, July 1, 1966- "While I certainly believe that Jesus Christy was born of a virgin, I do not find anywhere in the New Testament that the particular belief is necessary for personal salvation."

The Star, April 10, 1979- "I've never cast the demon out of anyone. I don't have the power, and I'm not sure anyone does."

March 8, 1979- National Enquirer- Regarding the Pope, Graham said, "He'll be warmly greeted because he's such a down-to-earth, fun-loving man who creates friends wherever he goes. I firmly feel Pope John Paul II will be the most respected pope of the century and he'll become the moral leader of the world."

The video that cannot be denied:

[video=youtube;axxlXy6bLH0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axxlXy6bLH0[/video]

So.... tell me HOW a christian with DECADES of ministry & experience NEVER change his beliefs & rid himself of heresy?

Tell me HOW the world, including the gay community, muslim countries, & the RCC all love this man, when the scriptures proclaim true christians will be hated?

Tell me HOW Graham could proclaim that Bill Clinton was a christian who missed his calling, & should have been an evangelist? Sheesh!

Anyone who can't see the truth about Graham obviously has their eyes closed.

 

[shotgunner]

I watched the video and I didn't hear Graham say that Jesus wasn't the only way. What I heard is that Jesus is the way even for those who are seeking him without having heard about him to even know his name.

 

[Stephen63]

1 John 2:22 (KJV) Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 John 5:11-12 (KJV) [SUP]11 [/SUP]And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [SUP]12 [/SUP]He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

 

[ladylynn]

Preachers can have bad doctrine in their beliefs..... but over time & with spiritual growth, many are discarded. Not with Graham..... He taught in the 60's till he retired that people can be saved in other religions & without knowing Christ.

This is NOT just a little "imperfection" in his doctrine..... It's total heresy to say one can get to heaven without knowing Jesus Christ.

Quotes by Graham over the years:

On the Phil Donahue show on 10-11-79, he said that pope John Paul II was someone that he could quote with "some real authority." He also said that the world was looking for a spiritual leader and that the pope didn't pull any punches.

The Lutheran Standard in October 1967....."I do believe that something happens at the baptism of an infant... we cannot fully understand the mysteries of God, but I believe that a miracle can happen in these children so that they are regenerated, that is, MADE CHRISTIAN, THROUGH INFANT BAPTISM."

The Orlando Sentinel, April 10, 1983....."I think people have a hard time believing God is going to allow people to burn in literal fire forever. I think the fire that is mentioned in the Bible is a burning thirst for God that can never be quenched."

United Church Observer, July 1, 1966- "While I certainly believe that Jesus Christy was born of a virgin, I do not find anywhere in the New Testament that the particular belief is necessary for personal salvation."

The Star, April 10, 1979- "I've never cast the demon out of anyone. I don't have the power, and I'm not sure anyone does."

March 8, 1979- National Enquirer- Regarding the Pope, Graham said, "He'll be warmly greeted because he's such a down-to-earth, fun-loving man who creates friends wherever he goes. I firmly feel Pope John Paul II will be the most respected pope of the century and he'll become the moral leader of the world."

The video that cannot be denied:

[video=youtube;axxlXy6bLH0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axxlXy6bLH0[/video]

So.... tell me HOW a christian with DECADES of ministry & experience NEVER change his beliefs & rid himself of heresy?

Tell me HOW the world, including the gay community, muslim countries, & the RCC all love this man, when the scriptures proclaim true christians will be hated?

Tell me HOW Graham could proclaim that Bill Clinton was a christian who missed his calling, & should have been an evangelist? Sheesh!

Anyone who can't see the truth about Graham obviously has their eyes closed.

listened to your link and it is lacking a lot. Especially since BillyGraham has more than proved himself all these years I would not throw him under the bus for the link you posted not by a long shot. I've listened to Joyce Meyer, Joel O. Billy Graham, David Jeremiah, Chuck Swindol., J.Vernon McGee., Radio Bible class., John MacGarther, WMHR radio., Charles Stanley, Andy Stanley., tons of others and as many as there are Christians who are in the public eye, there are even more people who find fault. We will never agree 100% with anyone because no one but God is perfect.

If someone had my life up on youtube and everything I ever said there for all to see I would certainly not be able to hold my head up. So for these Christians who are in the public eye 24/7 to even still be around I prefer to give them a lot of GRACE instead of a lot of condemnation.

 

[Stephen63]

listened to your link and it is lacking a lot. Especially since BillyGraham has more than proved himself all these years I would not throw him under the bus for the link you posted not by a long shot. I've listened to Joyce Meyer, Joel O. Billy Graham, David Jeremiah, Chuck Swindol., J.Vernon McGee., Radio Bible class., John MacGarther, WMHR radio., Charles Stanley, Andy Stanley., tons of others and as many as there are Christians who are in the public eye, there are even more people who find fault. We will never agree 100% with anyone because no one but God is perfect.

If someone had my life up on youtube and everything I ever said there for all to see I would certainly not be able to hold my head up. So for these Christians who are in the public eye 24/7 to even still be around I prefer to give them a lot of GRACE instead of a lot of condemnation.

And it won't change a thing, no matter what you throw at it..... it is what it is.

 

[ladylynn]

I think what people are trying to point out is not about looking for perfection in a preacher but rather trying to filter from whom people should listen. And sometimes you can't blame these people for being careful ( not judgmental ) because the Bible asked us to be so.

Matthew 7:15 (NKJV)

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

The problem is not because people are careful to listen but that they don't listen and are not careful ENOUGH and jump the gun sort of speak.
Tooooo often the words and phrases - Heretic - false teachers., wolves in sheeps clothing... etc... get typed out and instead of grace given there is condemnation given.

Remember, no one has to listen to other Christians on the radio or TV., just shut it off and listen to your favorite preacher instead. Why condemn them? People who can't stand even 93yr old Billy Graham must be almost perfect Christians since they have no problem judging so harshly the lives of all these people. I just can't join you. It's against my "religion"

 

[shotgunner]

Matthew 7:1-3King James Version (KJV)7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Romans 14:4King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

 

[Patnubay]

The problem is not because people are careful to listen but that they don't listen and are not careful ENOUGH and jump the gun sort of speak.
Tooooo often the words and phrases - Heretic - false teachers., wolves in sheeps clothing... etc... get typed out and instead of grace given there is condemnation given.

Remember, no one has to listen to other Christians on the radio or TV., just shut it off and listen to your favorite preacher instead. Why condemn them? People who can't stand even 93yr old Billy Graham must be almost perfect Christians since they have no problem judging so harshly the lives of all these people. I just can't join you. It's against my "religion"

Famous people attract all kinds of critics and followers alike. Some will be like you, a few like me and a bunch maybe like Stephen63. I'm just wondering why you looked very surprised. Read the Bible and you'd find out that even Jesus, our Savior, who had shown too many miracles and had proven so much was accused of being from the devil, a reincarnation of a prophet and rightfully God. Who is Bill Graham if I asked you now?

One thing though, grace shouldn't be given easily because the fact remains that false prophets in sheep's clothing exist. God's Word is infallible.

 

[Patnubay]

I watched the video and I didn't hear Graham say that Jesus wasn't the only way. What I heard is that Jesus is the way even for those who are seeking him without having heard about him to even know his name.

Fortunately, me too.

 

[ladylynn]

Famous people attract all kinds of critics and followers alike. Some will be like you, a few like me and a bunch maybe like Stephen63. I'm just wondering why you looked very surprised. Read the Bible and you'd find out that even Jesus, our Savior, who had shown too many miracles and had proven so much was accused of being from the devil, a reincarnation of a prophet and rightfully God. Who is Bill Graham if I asked you now?

One thing though, grace shouldn't be given easily because the fact remains that false prophets in sheep's clothing exist. God's Word is infallible.

Grace is given freely to us by God and we should follow suit and give it out too others. We are called to be imitators of Christ. We love Him because He first loved us. The only way we can love others is by experiencing His love ourselves.

 

[Elysian]

I was just watching some of Joyce this very morning, and thinking" "How very special and important she is to millions of people."

If she was poor and unknown, maybe a hundred people in the entire world would ever hear of the amazing things God has done in her life... and know that He will do the same for them.

It staggers me that so many people don't think God could easily just blink these people off the air if He didn't want them to be there. We give the devil so much credit and power, while thinking God is just helpless, and has to put up with something He doesn't want.

God warns us to beware of false teachers and wolves in sheep's clothing He also tells us to be wise a serpents.Just because God does not instantly blink these people of the air does not mean they have his blessing.

 

[ladylynn]

God warns us to beware of false teachers and wolves in sheep's clothing He also tells us to be wise a serpents.Just because God does not instantly blink these people of the air does not mean they have his blessing.

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Note 54 at Mt 7:15: Here are five ways to recognize false prophets. (1) Their prophecies don't come to pass (De 18:22); (2) by their fruit (Mt 7:16-20, 12:33-37; and Lu 6:43-45); (3) they fail to act in agreement with what they profess (Mt 7:21-27; Jas 2:17, 20, and 26); (4) by their doctrine (Mt 16:12; Ga 1:8-9; 1Ti 1:3-9, 4:1-6; 1Jo 4:1-3; and 2Jo 7-11); and (5) their motivation is covetousness (1Ti 6:10; 2Pe 2:1-3, and 15). A false prophet may not exhibit all five of these characteristics, and not everyone who exhibits one or two of these characteristics is a false prophet. However, these traits are associated with the false prophets who were identified in the Bible and should be questioned.
Bible commentary

 

[ladylynn]

RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT
​

Matthew 7:1, "Judge not, that ye be not judged."
​

MATTHEW 7:1-5
​

There are many examples of people judging others in the scriptures. Paul prayed that our love would abound more and more in all judgment (Phil. 1:9). In light of the scriptures where Jesus and the disciples spoke of judging, it is evident that there must be a right and a wrong type of judging.

In Luke 12:56-57, Jesus uses the words "discern" and "judge" interchangeably. A dictionary definition of "judge" can mean many things from "condemn" to "appraise, to form an opinion about; to think or consider." There is certainly nothing wrong with discerning or appraising a situation or person. Quite the contrary, we need to try the spirits (1 Jn. 4:1). Judging when done as discernment, is good.

It is the condemning type of judgment that is wrong. We can defer passing sentence on people to God, and know that He will make a perfect judgment (Rom. 2:2, Rev. 20:13). God is ultimately the only qualified judge.

Jesus is not forbidding judgment, but rather He is warning to be careful with our judgment because we will be judged accordingly. There are certain cases where we have to pass a condemning sentence as Paul did or as a judge would do today. Pastors and elders are charged with rebuking and even disciplining church members, but it is not something to be done lightly. Judging is not aimed at the person, but the actions of that person. This warning constrains us to be certain that we have heard from God. We must not simply vent our own frustrations.

Every Christian has a need for wisdom in making judgments about how to live from day to day. How wonderful to know that God through His Word has already equipped us to judge.

Bible commentary continued

 

[Patnubay]

Grace is given freely to us by God and we should follow suit and give it out too others. We are called to be imitators of Christ. We love Him because He first loved us. The only way we can love others is by experiencing His love ourselves.

Precisely hence we should take care of it by following His Word for His Word is infallible.

 

[Agricola]

Beware of false Prophets!


Yes very good, problem is anyone who gives a slightly incorrect interpretation of something is then accused of being a wolf in sheep clothing.

NO ONE, that is correct, No one on this earth has everything 100% correct, yes attack the real wolves and prophets for profit, but do not throw the baby out with bath water.

 

[Patnubay]

Beware of false Prophets!


Yes very good, problem is anyone who gives a slightly incorrect interpretation of something is then accused of being a wolf in sheep clothing.

NO ONE, that is correct, No one on this earth has everything 100% correct, yes attack the real wolves and prophets for profit, but do not throw the baby out with bath water.

This is the right thing to do.

 

[Stephen63]

[video=youtube;axxlXy6bLH0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axxlXy6bLH0[/video]

He says in 1:50- on the following:
Dr. Schuller: "Tell me, what is the future of Christianity?"
Dr. Graham: "Well, Christianity and being a true believer, you know, I think there's the body of Christ which comes from all the Christian groups around the world, or outside the Christian groups. I think that everybody that loves Christ or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the body of Christ. And I don't think that we're going to see a great sweeping revival that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time."
"What God is doing today is calling people out of the world for His name. Whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the body of Christ because they've been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus, but they know in their hearts they need something that they don't have and they turn to the only light they have and I think they're saved and they're going to be with us in heaven."
Dr. Schuller: "What I hear you saying is that it's possible for Jesus Christ to come into a human heart and soul and life even if they've been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you're saying?"
Dr. Graham: "Yes it is because I believe that. I've met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations that
they have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, have never heard of Jesus but they've believed in their hearts that there is a God and they tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived."
Dr. Schuller: "This is fantastic. I'm so thrilled to hear you say that. There's a wideness in God's mercy.
Dr. Graham: There is. There definitely is."

Now, how do you think people who believe in any god & live good moral lives are gonna go to heaven?

That means Jehovah's Witnesses & Mormons are going to heaven. Wiccans & white witches are going, too. Buddhists & Muslims are now going. New agers are going.

This video states plainly that people that don't know Christ at all, but are serving a god of some kind, are going to heaven because they're called by the God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob. That is blasphemy.

I wouldn't DARE insult my Heavenly Father or my Savior like that.

Now, what does that say for those who would dare stand with such an individual?

I'm not proving this to turn dissenters around..... no, no..... I'm showing all our dear readers what people will do to cover up such an obvious heretic as Graham. That's all. And now I'm done.

But..... it does makes one wonder why certain people would ignore & cover up such damning evidence, yes?

Another note: This video was done in 1997. Graham has NEVER made a single public statement denying it nor explaining it.

John 14:6 (KJV) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[shotgunner]

He says in 1:50- on the following:
Dr. Schuller: "Tell me, what is the future of Christianity?"
Dr. Graham: "Well, Christianity and being a true believer, you know, I think there's the body of Christ which comes from all the Christian groups around the world, or outside the Christian groups. I think that everybody that loves Christ or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the body of Christ. And I don't think that we're going to see a great sweeping revival that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time."
"What God is doing today is calling people out of the world for His name. Whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the body of Christ because they've been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus, but they know in their hearts they need something that they don't have and they turn to the only light they have and I think they're saved and they're going to be with us in heaven."
Dr. Schuller: "What I hear you saying is that it's possible for Jesus Christ to come into a human heart and soul and life even if they've been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you're saying?"
Dr. Graham: "Yes it is because I believe that. I've met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations that
they have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, have never heard of Jesus but they've believed in their hearts that there is a God and they tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived."
Dr. Schuller: "This is fantastic. I'm so thrilled to hear you say that. There's a wideness in God's mercy.
Dr. Graham: There is. There definitely is."

Now, how do you think people who believe in any god & live good moral lives are gonna go to heaven?

That means Jehovah's Witnesses & Mormons are going to heaven. Wiccans & white witches are going, too. Buddhists & Muslims are now going. New agers are going.

This video states plainly that people that don't know Christ at all, but are serving a god of some kind, are going to heaven because they're called by the God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob. That is blasphemy.

I wouldn't DARE insult my Heavenly Father or my Savior like that.

Now, what does that say for those who would dare stand with such an individual?

I'm not proving this to turn dissenters around..... no, no..... I'm showing all our dear readers what people will do to cover up such an obvious heretic as Graham. That's all. And now I'm done.

But..... it does makes one wonder why certain people would ignore & cover up such damning evidence, yes?

Another note: This video was done in 1997. Graham has NEVER made a single public statement denying it nor explaining it.

John 14:6 (KJV) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Do you even know his true name?