To comfort those who speak in tongues

[notuptome]

But isn't the epistle to the Corinthians addressed to the church? To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ--their Lord and ours: 1 Cor. 1:2 . . . so what is written within the Corinthian epistle would be for the church.

The church at Corinth was a church that was in disarray. Paul was disciplining them for their conduct not praising them. Paul is distinguishing the gifts to be desired and those of least importance and those that were being abused.
[quote[ Didn't Jesus pour out gift of holy spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues on the day of Pentecost - the birth of the church? Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. Acts 2:33[/quote]
No doubt Pentecost was an evidence of the filling of the disciples by the Holy Spirit so they would have power to minister as per the promise of Christ. The disciples were already baptized in the Holy Spirit in John 20 when Jesus breathed upon them the Holy Spirit. The promise of which Peter was speaking was again given to Israel in Joel. Peter makes it clear that Pentecost was only a partial fulfillment of Joel and the complete fulfillment would be at the end of the age often referred to as the latter rain.

Aren't tongues a sign for unbelievers? (NOT for believers) 1 Cor. 14:22

Yes more specifically unbelieving Jews. God has chosen the foolishness of preaching of the cross to bring men to salvation.

What is this instruction given to Paul by revelation to the church; the body of Christ? . . . I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, UNLESS he interprets so that the church may be edified. 1 Cor. 14:5

Prophesy is the speaking forth of the word of God. The prophets must agree with the prophets. In todays terms that is biblical preaching. I know of no evidence in the church especially in todays modern church where tongues are spoken like those on Pentecost. All understood what was said at Pentecost and that is the way God works. There is not one instance in the NT where we see an interpreter, not one. Tongues in the NT that require an interpreter are languages known to man. That is why it is necessary to have an interpreter or one who knows that language as well as the common language.

Paul cared for the church and that is why he was endeavoring to correct the church at Corinth. Paul knew tongues and Paul knew when they were being abused.

I am old enough to remember the sixties. It was a time when some thought that narcotics and other drugs could produce a higher level of awareness. To me it is shocking to see the similar philosophy about tongues in the NT church.

There is so much negative about tongues in the scriptures, so many warnings, it is hard to find any reason to claim that what the church today is doing is of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Then why were gifts given to the gentiles to be used among gentiles? Biblically, the purpose of the gift of tongues was to speak to people in a multitude of languages. Your line of thinking makes very little sense.

You claim is made wholly without scriptural support. There is no evidence that tongues in todays church is communication in a multitude of languages.

Your assertion is without basis in facts.
Gentiles in the NT spoke in tongues to certify before the Jews that the same Holy Spirit was saving Gentiles as was saving Jews. This fact is attested to in the book of Acts.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[BenFTW]

Tongues, if done in private, is a sign to Israel how? If what is said is between you and God and not for the understanding of man then how can it be for Israel only? If there are explanations of how tongues are to be used in a church service, are we to conclude only Israel was present in such services?

Notice that there are thee different types of gift of tongues according to scripture. We have tongues that speak to a people in their own language (such as at Pentecost), we then have tongues that need to be interpreted (in a congregational setting, notice the tongues werent interpreted at Pentecost they were just understood) and then we have verses speaking of tongues that are meant to be only between you and your Heavenly Father where the Holy Spirit gives you utterance and you speak mysteries in the Spirit (which can also be singing in tongues).

We have here instances of which tongues extend beyond the purpose of Pentecost, to other purposes of ministry and self edification. Also the edification of the body of Christ, along with prophecy. So how you can say the gift was only for the purposes of Israel when we have clear scripture that shows it has other purposes beyond Pentecost? The answer is you can't.

 

[Galatians2-20]

You claim is made wholly without scriptural support. There is no evidence that tongues in todays church is communication in a multitude of languages.

Your assertion is without basis in facts.
Gentiles in the NT spoke in tongues to certify before the Jews that the same Holy Spirit was saving Gentiles as was saving Jews. This fact is attested to in the book of Acts.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Sir, read my post again... IN CONTEXT. I said nothing about tongues today. I said that "Biblically, the purpose of the gift of tongues WAS to speak to people in a multitude of languages." Your comments are out of line and unnecessary.

 

[popeye]

Tongues, if done in private, is a sign to Israel how? If what is said is between you and God and not for the understanding of man then how can it be for Israel only? If there are explanations of how tongues are to be used in a church service, are we to conclude only Israel was present in such services?

Notice that there are thee different types of gift of tongues according to scripture. We have tongues that speak to a people in their own language (such as at Pentecost), we then have tongues that need to be interpreted (in a congregational setting, notice the tongues werent interpreted at Pentecost they were just understood) and then we have verses speaking of tongues that are meant to be only between you and your Heavenly Father where the Holy Spirit gives you utterance and you speak mysteries in the Spirit (which can also be singing in tongues).

We have here instances of which tongues extend beyond the purpose of Pentecost, to other purposes of ministry and self edification. Also the edification of the body of Christ, along with prophecy. So how you can say the gift was only for the purposes of Israel when we have clear scripture that shows it has other purposes beyond Pentecost? The answer is you can't.

There never was and never will be a cessationist with an in depth study on tongues.

They are oblivious of the word opened to the spirit filled believer.

Sad that they actually and eerily have no starting place.

 

[popeye]

Sir, read my post again... IN CONTEXT. I said nothing about tongues today. I said that "Biblically, the purpose of the gift of tongues WAS to speak to people in a multitude of languages." Your comments are out of line and unnecessary.

please clarify

 

[peacefulbeliever]

The church at Corinth was a church that was in disarray. Paul was disciplining them for their conduct not praising them. Paul is distinguishing the gifts to be desired and those of least importance and those that were being abused.

I agree that the church at Corinth was being reproved and corrected in their usage of the manifestation of the Spirit. He then pointed out to them where they were wrong and then corrected them on how the manifestation of the Spirit should be handled in the church. This epistle was not only written to the church but "to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ"--their Lord and ours:

No doubt Pentecost was an evidence of the filling of the disciples by the Holy Spirit so they would have power to minister as per the promise of Christ. The disciples were already baptized in the Holy Spirit in John 20 when Jesus breathed upon them the Holy Spirit. The promise of which Peter was speaking was again given to Israel in Joel. Peter makes it clear that Pentecost was only a partial fulfillment of Joel and the complete fulfillment would be at the end of the age often referred to as the latter rain. Yes more specifically unbelieving Jews. God has chosen the foolishness of preaching of the cross to bring men to salvation.

Yes, the infilling of the holy Spirit gave the disciples power, and boldness to be witnesses for Christ. The gift of holy Spirit was not given until the day of Pentecost - until Christ was glorified - Christ was glorified when he ascended and became a life giving spirit. - Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as Scripture as said, rivers of living water will flow from within them. By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified. John 7:37b-39
Where does scripture say "more specifically to unbelieving Jews" . . .?

Prophesy is the speaking forth of the word of God. The prophets must agree with the prophets. In todays terms that is biblical preaching. I know of no evidence in the church especially in todays modern church where tongues are spoken like those on Pentecost. All understood what was said at Pentecost and that is the way God works. There is not one instance in the NT where we see an interpreter, not one. Tongues in the NT that require an interpreter are languages known to man. That is why it is necessary to have an interpreter or one who knows that language as well as the common language.

True, prophecy is the speaking forth of God's word . . . the prophets in the OT spoke as they received revelation (word of wisdom, word of knowledge) from God. The manifestation of tongues on the day of Pentecost was miraculous in that the spirit they uttered words that could be understood by those present - it had a powerful impact because of that. The people there understood what was said but the disciples did not know the language . . . that's why they were all amazed. One that speaks in tongues should interpret . . . God gives the tongue and God gives the interpretation: "for greater is he that prophesies than he that speaks in tongues UNLESS HE interpret" . . .

Paul cared for the church and that is why he was endeavoring to correct the church at Corinth. Paul knew tongues and Paul knew when they were being abused.

I am old enough to remember the sixties. It was a time when some thought that narcotics and other drugs could produce a higher level of awareness. To me it is shocking to see the similar philosophy about tongues in the NT church.

There is so much negative about tongues in the scriptures, so many warnings, it is hard to find any reason to claim that what the church today is doing is of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I agree that the church at Corinth was misusing the manifestation of the Spirit and they were and it is similar to a lot of the churches today in that you see tongues manifested by more than two or at the most by three and that one interpreting . . . I have seen it but it is rare.

I really don't see any negativity regarding speaking in tongues, nor any warnings in fact I see - do not forbid . . . .

 

[posthuman]

So the manifestation of the Spirit is energized by one and the selfsame Spirit distributing the manifestation to each one's own as man wills or determines. God does not possess anyone . . . everything is done by man's own will - or as each individual wills.

these things are given and done by God's will, not man's.
you are misconstruing this, and making it conflict with other scripture --

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
(John 1:12-13)​

↑ born not of human will, but of God. and how born? by this Spirit, God's own, not men's.

Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
(James 1:18)
​

↑ by God's own will, not man's.
there are two witnesses for you; and there are more.

For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
(2 Peter 1:21)​

↑ prophecy -- a manifestation of His Spirit -- not by man's will, but by God.
so when you read this --

But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
(1 Corinthians 12:11)​

it is the Spirit who works these things, and distributes these things, according to His will - God's will - not man's will.
you do not chose for yourself, "i will be a prophet" -- but the Spirit determines this. the only thing you choose is "i will submit to God's will" or "i will resist God's will"
you do not choose for yourself "i will speak in tongues" -- but the Spirit will determine this.
you do not choose for yourself "i will work miracles" -- but it is done by the will and power of God.
you do not distribute these things. you do not work these things. the Spirit does this.

in addition to John, James & Peter, Paul is another witness to this truth:

But earnestly desire the greater gifts.
(1 Corinthians 12:31)
​

why did Paul not say "choose the greater gifts" or "determine for yourself the greater gifts" ? but he says "desire" them.

 

[posthuman]

But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
Therefore it says,
“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.”[SUP]
(Ephesians 4:7-8)

[/SUP]​

that's "gifts" -- not "gift cards" as though we can cash them in for whatever we want.

according to the measure of Christ's gift, not according to the measure of our wish list.

If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children,
how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
(Matthew 7:11)
​

Father knows best.

for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
(Philippians 2:13)
​

even if we desire and ask for good things, look at who works good will in us ↑
look at whose purpose it is! not ours, but the Lord's.
He is a perfect Giver - not a vending machine!

 

[Gr8grace]

1 Corinthians 13:8 (NASB95)
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

Tongues is plural, the pronoun "they" is plural. IF, there are varied forms of tongues, they ALL will cease.

If we take careful note of the words "Cease" for tongues and "done away with" for Prophecy and knowledge. We will notice that "cease" is in the middle voice and "done away with" is in the passive voice.

The middle voice indicates that tongues would work against itself to to bring about its own termination. And because of its nature of being a sign to "this people"(Israel), when the sign has served its purpose, they would end. They had a limited use,and when the usefulness ran its course, tongues ended in and of themselves.

Prophecy and knowledge, being in the passive voice, receives the action of being terminated.When the completed canon(The perfect/NEUTER gender) came.

Since tongues were a sign for the impending 5th cycle of discipline for "this People", Israel. And they received their last cycle of discipline in 70 AD, when Titus of ROME dispersed the nation of Israel.......ALL varied forms of tongues ceased.

 

[ember]

Here, you never once argued any concrete point. VW presented his views after he presented a brief chronological history of Paul's writings. Ember, you got hung up on the part where VW said these gifts serve no purpose today (except self-glorification) and failed to address the historical points VW presented.

Later, VW expands...but my point, here, is to show that VW was not attacking any individual's personal character here -- you were.

well, I seldom say I am done with a thread as sooner or later you may want to come back to it...I have thought about this, prayed about this and decided that I will, after all, respond again as other voices have joined, so excuse me for saying I would not be back here...but I changed my mind

with regards to what you wrote to me warrior, it seems you have taken up the cause of vigilant warrior to the extent that you accuse me of attacking him

I do not take such a thing lightly and I gave thought and weight to your words. Continuing to read more of your posts and continuing to read more of his posts...both here and in other threads, I do not accept your conclusion as valid...it may be valid to your own thought processes, but I have not attacked anyone in this thread...although some are quick to accuse others of attacking them, it is not a defense position I usually assume. However, if anyone in this thread has done some attacking it is actually VW...as far as Roger goes...well, he just chugs on pretty much the same in thread after thread...after a while it is kind of line white noise in the background, although I would hope he changes his mind and accepts ALL the Bible and not just the parts he is comfortable with.

Here is a sample post of VW's from this thread not addressed to me...it is to Ricky

Originally Posted by Viligant_Warrior

To accuse this man of "walking without the Spirit" is the height of arrogance and unwarranted abuse. It reveals your true character and should result in anyone on the fence about your so-called "doctrine" realizing that you do not speak any truth, and what you do speak is not in love, but with a bludgeon. You are undeserving of any attention from the membership here whatsoever. You should be ashamed, and you own Roger an apology. You are no one's spiritual judge! As Paul said, "Examine yourself."

you can find that in post 369...with Ricky's response

it seems to me that the arrogance is actually issuing from VW and not anyone else...you have not been arrogant, convallaria has not been arrogant, Roger has not been arrogant and I have not been arrogant.

The height of arrogance and unwarranted abuse? are you kidding me? This is a man who thinks he is the judge here...and you have decided he has not attacked anyone. His responses are similar throughout these forums to one and all on any subject a person may disagree with him on.

So, I reject your words to me ... they are protective of your own thought processes and do not represent a fair evaluation of my posts IMO.

Of course, you are certainly free to think what you want of me or anyone else and we are equally free to reject your conclusions.

I was also very disappointed that you chose to include a summation of Ricky's witness to the effects of praying in tongues with a video of a horror movie.

Vampire movies are demonic IMO and choosing to try and say that someone watched this garbage and then tried to lie about their experience is just way below how I would expect someone who is actively trying to determine truth would behave.

 

[posthuman]

Some reflecting right now might be a good thing

1The Lord is my shepherd, I lack nothing.
2He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
3he refreshes my soul.
He guides me along the right paths
for his name’s sake.
4Even though I walk
through the darkest valley,[SUP]a[/SUP]
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.

5You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
6Surely your goodness and love will follow me
all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the Lord
forever.

notice in verse 5 who it is that prepares the table before us?



does anyone get the sense that He hands us a menu, and then asks us what gifts and manifestations we'd like to have with our supper?

honestly?

this idea is a stumbling block that leads into this pit of will-worship, saying "i will speak in tongues" or "i will prophesy" etc. this is centrally wrong here, the preconception that tongues or any other manifestation of God's own Spirit can be "stirred up" by our own human will.

yet not my will, but yours be done.
​

 

[posthuman]

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
(Romans 9:16)
​

how many ways can this be said?

 

[ember]

Just so!


1Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[SUP]a[/SUP] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[SUP]b[/SUP] 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

 

[ember]

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
(Romans 9:16)
​

how many ways can this be said?

regarding the comment you made to me for Psalm 23...what you say is conformation to me. what you say is what I thought

this is one of the gifts I experience besides speaking in tongues....I didn't choose it! and not everybody likes it

I stayed away from this thread because of th accusations and then reading what peaceful warrior had to say to me I was not really surprised having posted psalm 23

that's how it goes...you hear, you obey, another spirit tries to make it seem that you are the one who is doing evil

God help us...we need discernment more than anything else, save God's love!

 

[Galatians2-20]

please clarify

Popeye, my intial response was to a post made my Peaceful Warrior where he states that tongues were given to Israel only. My response was that originally, the gift of tongues was given to Jew & gentile to speak to the multitudes, thus his statement did not make sense.

Notuptome, apparently misunderstood my statement and wrongly assumed that I was attempting to support the view that tongues are still for today. However, my comment, when read in it's intended context, was never intended to support or deny such a claim.

 

[BenFTW]

Popeye, my intial response was to a post made my Peaceful Warrior where he states that tongues were given to Israel only. My response was that originally, the gift of tongues was given to speak to the multitudes, thus how could it be for Israel only.

Notuptome, apparently misunderstood my statement and wrongly assumed that I was attatempting to support the view that tongues are still for today with my comment. However, my comment, when read in it's intended context, was never intended to support or deny such a claim.

So are you pleading the fifth on whether tongues is for today or not? lol

 

[Galatians2-20]

So are you pleading the fifth on whether tongues is for today or not? lol

lol @ Ben, I do believe that the gifts are still for today. However, my comments in question was neither in support or denial of that belief.

While I do consider myself a Continuationst, I do not consider myself to be a Charismatic.

 

[BenFTW]

lol @ Ben, I do believe that the gifts are still for today. However, my comments in question was neither in support or denial of that belief.

While I do consider myself a Continuationst, I do not consider myself to be a Charismatic.

Be a Continuationist and please continue... (get it? lol ) Why do you believe the gifts are still for today? I think you will do a good job at explaining it, which will help others come to realize the Holy Spirit has already placed a gift or gifts inside of them of which they should operate in for the edification of others. A Continuationist but not a Charismatic... interesting distinction.

 

[posthuman]

I do not consider myself to be a Charismatic.

i don't think i have much charisma either