The Absolutism of Verb Tense
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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Point one is about discipleship not SALVATION which is a one time act with present continuing results.....post 79 and the GREEK rejects your view and proves eternal security! Seeing how your first point is taken out of context and applied unto salvation when in reality it is given concerning discipleship there is no need to address anything else....Jesus, Solomon, Paul etc. ALL taught eternal security.......maybe believe the word instead of opinion...the verb tense PROVES eternal security!
J
Hogwash.
Jesus spoke of those who "after they had laid the foundation weren't able to finish", those who backed out of the war by "desiring conditions of peace" with their adversary and "salt which had lost its savour" and all pertain to SALVATION.
IOW, you've cowered away. I'm not the least bit surprised.
Jesus spoke of those who "after they had laid the foundation weren't able to finish", those who backed out of the war by "desiring conditions of peace" with their adversary and "salt which had lost its savour" and all pertain to SALVATION.
IOW, you've cowered away. I'm not the least bit surprised.
who is it that lays the foundation? me? ha!
Christ, the same who is that Foundation.
is He "unable to finish" ?
who makes us salt? who was sent to restore all things?
i am unable; i was unable even to become salt to begin with - is He unable?
do we trust in chariots? in horses? in the help of men? in our strength?
the battle is the Lord's.
So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.
(Luke 14:33)
(Luke 14:33)
i renounce even myself.
i am unable, but there is One who is a Refuge for the powerless and Defender of the weak.
this is the one in whom my trust is, this is the one whose faithfulness i rely on -- not myself.
J
"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." (I Corinthians 3:10-11)
Paul said that he "laid the foundation" and he said that "other foundation CAN NO MAN LAY than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ". Men can "lay the foundation" of Christ, friend, and Jesus warned of those who "after they had laid the foundation were unable to finish building". IOW, they didn't truly "count the cost FIRST" and they were unable to finish what they started or they were unable to endure unto the end and be saved.
Wrong question. The issue isn't "Who makes us salt?", but rather "What happens to salt that loses its savour or its saltiness?" Jesus said that its "not even fit for the dunghill" or for a pile of crap and that it is "cast out". Does that sound like "once saved, always saved" or "once salt, always salt" to you?
Again, Jesus warned of those who after they had begun the battle would "desire conditions of peace" with their adversary. If you want to ignore such warnings or try to explain them away, then that's your choice. For me, I believe Jesus over you, dcon or anybody else who rejects the teachings of Jesus whether in part or in whole.
Paul said that he "laid the foundation" and he said that "other foundation CAN NO MAN LAY than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ". Men can "lay the foundation" of Christ, friend, and Jesus warned of those who "after they had laid the foundation were unable to finish building". IOW, they didn't truly "count the cost FIRST" and they were unable to finish what they started or they were unable to endure unto the end and be saved.
Wrong question. The issue isn't "Who makes us salt?", but rather "What happens to salt that loses its savour or its saltiness?" Jesus said that its "not even fit for the dunghill" or for a pile of crap and that it is "cast out". Does that sound like "once saved, always saved" or "once salt, always salt" to you?
Again, Jesus warned of those who after they had begun the battle would "desire conditions of peace" with their adversary. If you want to ignore such warnings or try to explain them away, then that's your choice. For me, I believe Jesus over you, dcon or anybody else who rejects the teachings of Jesus whether in part or in whole.
count the cost.
who paid it? you were unable.
who started this? you were unable.
who will finish this? you are unable.
you are neither Author, not Perfector.
but the One who is able -- He is.
no, this is exactly the right question.
if the issue is being salt -- can you make yourself salt?
if the issue is remaining salty -- can you keep yourself?
if the issue is being renewed and redeemed -- can you regenerate yourself?
no, no, no.
but all things are possible for the one that believes.
believes not in himself - but in God who justifies the ungodly because of their faith.
are you bringing your own ten thousand? are you able to defeat the enemy? is victory yours? i tell you what, if you depend on yourself, you will surely lose. you will surely hope for peace and mercy at your enemy's hands, and you will not find pity in the adversary's eyes. but my help comes from the Lord!
count the cost. you cannot pay it.
calculate the need. you cannot meet it.
consider the enemy. you cannot stand against him.
put your trust in the One who is able to pay the price of your soul.
put your trust in the One who is able to turn dung into salt, dust into living beings, darkness into light; who is able to bring us from death into life.
put your trust in the One who has the victory.
when Christ says we need to hate even our own life to be His disciple, He means even your own life. we need to renounce even our own strength.
"human" includes you. you are not able.
who paid it? you were unable.
who started this? you were unable.
who will finish this? you are unable.
you are neither Author, not Perfector.
but the One who is able -- He is.
no, this is exactly the right question.
if the issue is being salt -- can you make yourself salt?
if the issue is remaining salty -- can you keep yourself?
if the issue is being renewed and redeemed -- can you regenerate yourself?
no, no, no.
but all things are possible for the one that believes.
believes not in himself - but in God who justifies the ungodly because of their faith.
what king, going out to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand?
And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace.
(Luke 14:31-32)
And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace.
(Luke 14:31-32)
are you bringing your own ten thousand? are you able to defeat the enemy? is victory yours? i tell you what, if you depend on yourself, you will surely lose. you will surely hope for peace and mercy at your enemy's hands, and you will not find pity in the adversary's eyes. but my help comes from the Lord!
count the cost. you cannot pay it.
calculate the need. you cannot meet it.
consider the enemy. you cannot stand against him.
put your trust in the One who is able to pay the price of your soul.
put your trust in the One who is able to turn dung into salt, dust into living beings, darkness into light; who is able to bring us from death into life.
put your trust in the One who has the victory.
when Christ says we need to hate even our own life to be His disciple, He means even your own life. we need to renounce even our own strength.
Give us aid against the enemy, for human help is worthless.
(Psalm 108:12)
(Psalm 108:12)
"human" includes you. you are not able.
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J
Perhaps some more of Jesus' Words are in order:
"Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." (Matthew 25:1-13)
What do we have here? Well, we have ten VIRGINS and not five VIRGINS and five WHORES/ADULTERESSES/FORNICATORS/ETC. Now, we all know what "virgins" are representative of, don't we? Sure, we do, but here's a reminder just the same:
"Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." (II Corinthians 11:1-3)
CHRISTIANS have been "espoused to one husband", Jesus Christ, and it was Paul's desire to "present" the saints as "a chaste virgin to Christ". Paul feared, though, didn't he? Of course, he did because, unlike those who would twist both Jesus' and Paul's words, Paul knew darn well that people could fall away or that they could fall from grace and he warned about the same repeatedly. Enough about Paul, though. Let's get back to Jesus' words. Jesus spoke of ten VIRGINS or ten CHRISTIANS who all had "lamps". Now, c'mon...we all know what "lamps" represent, don't we? "Lamps" are not only a source of light as in those who have received "the light of the glorious gospel of Christ" (II Corinthians 4:4), but these "lamps" were fueled by "oil" which all ten VIRGINS originally had. Yes, all of their "lamps" were initially burning and they were all being fueled by "oil". Well, what is "oil" representative of? Is it not representative of the Holy Spirit or of the anointing of God? Of course, it is. So, basically, we have ten CHRISTIANS here who all initially had "lamps" or "the light of the glorious gospel of Christ" which were being fueled by "oil" or by the Holy Spirit and they all "went forth to meet the bridegroom". Now, c'mon...are unsaved people "going forth to meet the bridegroom" when "the cry is made, 'The bridegroom cometh'"? We all know that they're not, so let's not kid or delude ourselves into thinking for even a second that Jesus was here speaking about anybody other than ten CHRISTIANS. Well, what was the distinction between the wise VIRGINS and the foolish VIRGINS?
The wise VIRGINS had enough "oil" to make it until the Lord's return and the foolish VIRGINS didn't.
Again, they all initially had "oil" because the foolish VIRGINS said unto the wise VIRGINS, "Give us of your oil for our lamps are gone out". They couldn't have "gone out" if they hadn't initially been burning and, again, they were initially being fueled by "oil" which is representative of the Holy Spirit or of the anointing of God. They were CHRISTIANS...but they weren't prepared to endure unto the end. In fact, even when they were instructed by the wise VIRGINS to "Go to them that sell oil and buy for yourselves", these foolish VIRGINS left to do the same. Now, again, are the unsaved "going to buy oil"? Let's not kid ourselves. They're not. Well, what happened? When Christ returned, the wise VIRGINS who were ready went in with Him to the marriage and the foolish VIRGINS were shut out. Even when these foolish VIRGINS cried out, "Lord, Lord, open to us", they were turned away and told by Jesus, "I know you not". Some would have us to believe that Jesus believed in and taught "once saved, always saved". I'm telling you that they're either truly deceived or willfully and knowingly lying to you. Look at Jesus' words. Take them humbly and sincerely before God in prayer. They say what they say...no matter who tries to twist or to dismiss them.
"Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." (Matthew 25:1-13)
What do we have here? Well, we have ten VIRGINS and not five VIRGINS and five WHORES/ADULTERESSES/FORNICATORS/ETC. Now, we all know what "virgins" are representative of, don't we? Sure, we do, but here's a reminder just the same:
"Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." (II Corinthians 11:1-3)
CHRISTIANS have been "espoused to one husband", Jesus Christ, and it was Paul's desire to "present" the saints as "a chaste virgin to Christ". Paul feared, though, didn't he? Of course, he did because, unlike those who would twist both Jesus' and Paul's words, Paul knew darn well that people could fall away or that they could fall from grace and he warned about the same repeatedly. Enough about Paul, though. Let's get back to Jesus' words. Jesus spoke of ten VIRGINS or ten CHRISTIANS who all had "lamps". Now, c'mon...we all know what "lamps" represent, don't we? "Lamps" are not only a source of light as in those who have received "the light of the glorious gospel of Christ" (II Corinthians 4:4), but these "lamps" were fueled by "oil" which all ten VIRGINS originally had. Yes, all of their "lamps" were initially burning and they were all being fueled by "oil". Well, what is "oil" representative of? Is it not representative of the Holy Spirit or of the anointing of God? Of course, it is. So, basically, we have ten CHRISTIANS here who all initially had "lamps" or "the light of the glorious gospel of Christ" which were being fueled by "oil" or by the Holy Spirit and they all "went forth to meet the bridegroom". Now, c'mon...are unsaved people "going forth to meet the bridegroom" when "the cry is made, 'The bridegroom cometh'"? We all know that they're not, so let's not kid or delude ourselves into thinking for even a second that Jesus was here speaking about anybody other than ten CHRISTIANS. Well, what was the distinction between the wise VIRGINS and the foolish VIRGINS?
The wise VIRGINS had enough "oil" to make it until the Lord's return and the foolish VIRGINS didn't.
Again, they all initially had "oil" because the foolish VIRGINS said unto the wise VIRGINS, "Give us of your oil for our lamps are gone out". They couldn't have "gone out" if they hadn't initially been burning and, again, they were initially being fueled by "oil" which is representative of the Holy Spirit or of the anointing of God. They were CHRISTIANS...but they weren't prepared to endure unto the end. In fact, even when they were instructed by the wise VIRGINS to "Go to them that sell oil and buy for yourselves", these foolish VIRGINS left to do the same. Now, again, are the unsaved "going to buy oil"? Let's not kid ourselves. They're not. Well, what happened? When Christ returned, the wise VIRGINS who were ready went in with Him to the marriage and the foolish VIRGINS were shut out. Even when these foolish VIRGINS cried out, "Lord, Lord, open to us", they were turned away and told by Jesus, "I know you not". Some would have us to believe that Jesus believed in and taught "once saved, always saved". I'm telling you that they're either truly deceived or willfully and knowingly lying to you. Look at Jesus' words. Take them humbly and sincerely before God in prayer. They say what they say...no matter who tries to twist or to dismiss them.
where did these virgins get their oil?
OH MY!
they didn't make oil for themselves! it didn't come from themselves!
it had to be acquired from another!
HOW INTERESTING!!!
"go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves"
OH MY!
they didn't make oil for themselves! it didn't come from themselves!
it had to be acquired from another!
HOW INTERESTING!!!
Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.
(Isaiah 55:1)
For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.
(John 3:34)
(Isaiah 55:1)
For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.
(John 3:34)
no.
depending on yourself to keep your salvation is like an empty lamp.
you can burn a wick soaked in oil - or even a wick with no oil at all - for a short time, but it will soon be used up, and you will be right back in darkness.
but my God is a Reservoir that is never depleted!
"They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them"
depending on yourself to keep your salvation is like an empty lamp.
you can burn a wick soaked in oil - or even a wick with no oil at all - for a short time, but it will soon be used up, and you will be right back in darkness.
but my God is a Reservoir that is never depleted!
J
Nobody said that they made oil for themselves, so calm down. The point is that they not only ran out of oil, but that they also left to get more.
Oh, please.
Their lamps had gone out, which means that they had once been burning, and they were obviously fueled by oil. Furthermore, they were all VIRGINS, they all had "lamps" or "the light" and they all were waiting for the bridegroom's return. If you want to delude yourself into believing that Jesus wasn't talking about Christians, then go right ahead.
Oh, please.
Their lamps had gone out, which means that they had once been burning, and they were obviously fueled by oil. Furthermore, they were all VIRGINS, they all had "lamps" or "the light" and they all were waiting for the bridegroom's return. If you want to delude yourself into believing that Jesus wasn't talking about Christians, then go right ahead.
you're under the impression that wicks without oil are inflammable? got a lamp or a kerosene heater? go empty it, then see if it's impossible to light it. do that, then let me know how long it burns compared to one with a full tank.
the text clearly says they took no oil with them. it doesn't matter what you'd like for it to say.
addressed above. wicks can very much be burned without oil. not good for the lamp tho.
you're welcome!
right then. we agree the oil is the Spirit! so what's the lamp? also the Spirit?
you want the oil to also be works? you want the lamp and the oil to be the same thing?
where you going with that?
so were these people:
they had a lamp, but no oil.
He's talking about those with oil and those without. you think people can be Christians without oil? they may look like it, by appearances. but appearances are not what we're taught to judge by.
so no idea where you are coming from here -- my guess is you want Christians to lose their confidence?
the hope of the gospel isn't in myself. it's in Christ & His finished work. therefore and thereby i am confident, not because of my faithfulness, but His towards me.
oh look!
hope comes by the power of oil!
like we say down here in Appalachia, gechasum!
the text clearly says they took no oil with them. it doesn't matter what you'd like for it to say.
Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow.
But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
addressed above. wicks can very much be burned without oil. not good for the lamp tho.
you're welcome!
right then. we agree the oil is the Spirit! so what's the lamp? also the Spirit?
you want the oil to also be works? you want the lamp and the oil to be the same thing?
where you going with that?
so were these people:
‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
they had a lamp, but no oil.
He's talking about those with oil and those without. you think people can be Christians without oil? they may look like it, by appearances. but appearances are not what we're taught to judge by.
so no idea where you are coming from here -- my guess is you want Christians to lose their confidence?
So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.
(Hebrews 10:35)
(Hebrews 10:35)
we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.
(Hebrews 10:39)
we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
(Hebrews 3:14)
continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard
(Colossians 1:13)
(Hebrews 10:39)
we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
(Hebrews 3:14)
continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard
(Colossians 1:13)
the hope of the gospel isn't in myself. it's in Christ & His finished work. therefore and thereby i am confident, not because of my faithfulness, but His towards me.
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
(Romans 15:13)
(Romans 15:13)
oh look!
hope comes by the power of oil!
like we say down here in Appalachia, gechasum!
J
you're under the impression that wicks without oil are inflammable? got a lamp or a kerosene heater? go empty it, then see if it's impossible to light it. do that, then let me know how long it burns compared to one with a full tank.
the text clearly says they took no oil with them. it doesn't matter what you'd like for it to say.
addressed above. wicks can very much be burned without oil. not good for the lamp tho.
you're welcome!
right then. we agree the oil is the Spirit! so what's the lamp? also the Spirit?
you want the oil to also be works? you want the lamp and the oil to be the same thing?
where you going with that?
so were these people:
they had a lamp, but no oil.
He's talking about those with oil and those without. you think people can be Christians without oil? they may look like it, by appearances. but appearances are not what we're taught to judge by.
so no idea where you are coming from here -- my guess is you want Christians to lose their confidence?
the hope of the gospel isn't in myself. it's in Christ & His finished work. therefore and thereby i am confident, not because of my faithfulness, but His towards me.
oh look!
hope comes by the power of oil!
like we say down here in Appalachia, gechasum!
the text clearly says they took no oil with them. it doesn't matter what you'd like for it to say.
Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow.
But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
addressed above. wicks can very much be burned without oil. not good for the lamp tho.
you're welcome!
right then. we agree the oil is the Spirit! so what's the lamp? also the Spirit?
you want the oil to also be works? you want the lamp and the oil to be the same thing?
where you going with that?
so were these people:
‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
they had a lamp, but no oil.
He's talking about those with oil and those without. you think people can be Christians without oil? they may look like it, by appearances. but appearances are not what we're taught to judge by.
so no idea where you are coming from here -- my guess is you want Christians to lose their confidence?
So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.
(Hebrews 10:35)
(Hebrews 10:35)
we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.
(Hebrews 10:39)
we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
(Hebrews 3:14)
continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard
(Colossians 1:13)
(Hebrews 10:39)
we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
(Hebrews 3:14)
continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard
(Colossians 1:13)
the hope of the gospel isn't in myself. it's in Christ & His finished work. therefore and thereby i am confident, not because of my faithfulness, but His towards me.
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
(Romans 15:13)
(Romans 15:13)
oh look!
hope comes by the power of oil!
like we say down here in Appalachia, gechasum!
Here's what the text says:
"They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps."
The obvious (well, not for you, apparently) contrast is between the wise who took oil IN THEIR VESSELS with their lamps and the foolish who took no oil IN THEIR VESSELS with their lamps. Nowhere does it say that the lamps weren't initially being fueled by oil. Instead, it merely says that they took no "receptacle" or "reservoir" (look up the Greek word translated as "vessels") or surplus supply of oil WITH THEIR LAMPS. IOW, the wise had both lamps which were being fueled by oil and a surplus of oil whereas the foolish only had their lamps which were being fueled by oil. Anyhow, you've obviously duped yourself into believing that Jesus called non-believers VIRGINS who had "lamps" or "the light" and who were going out to meet Him as their bridegroom, so I guess that you prefer delusion to reality. Your choice.
one job:
hold this hope to the end.
hold this confidence to the end.
what's a "lamp" here?
what's a "vessel of oil" here?
do you have hope? do you have confidence?
what's your hope & confidence in?
something that might falter? something that may fail? someone whose strength can give out?
will your hope & confidence ever be found wanting, & put you in the position that you have to ask someone who has a reservoir of hope to give you some?
how would you like to have a confidence that can't be shaken? a hope that cannot fail?
it's good.
put your trust in the One who is able to keep you from falling.
the One who is faithful to finish the work He began.
He is faithful!
does that sound like something that is going to run dry to you? lol!
you're turning a thread about verb tense into a thread about losing salvation.
if not to destroy confidence, why?
you skipped a whole lot of what i said, and not just in one post, just so you could argue a detail. so you could keep pushing an agenda of destroying confidence. why?
is that what you meant by "gymnastics" ?
believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.
hold this hope to the end.
hold this confidence to the end.
what's a "lamp" here?
what's a "vessel of oil" here?
do you have hope? do you have confidence?
what's your hope & confidence in?
something that might falter? something that may fail? someone whose strength can give out?
will your hope & confidence ever be found wanting, & put you in the position that you have to ask someone who has a reservoir of hope to give you some?
how would you like to have a confidence that can't be shaken? a hope that cannot fail?
it's good.
put your trust in the One who is able to keep you from falling.
the One who is faithful to finish the work He began.
He is faithful!
Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said,
rivers of living water will flow from within them.
(John 7:38)
rivers of living water will flow from within them.
(John 7:38)
does that sound like something that is going to run dry to you? lol!
you're turning a thread about verb tense into a thread about losing salvation.
if not to destroy confidence, why?
you skipped a whole lot of what i said, and not just in one post, just so you could argue a detail. so you could keep pushing an agenda of destroying confidence. why?
is that what you meant by "gymnastics" ?
J
Contextually, Jesus was speaking about what it is going to "cost" CHRISTIANS to follow Him:
"And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned? It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." (Luke 14:25-35)
Being a true follower of Christ means that we may face the rejection of our father, our mother, our wife, our children, our brothers and our sisters and some simply cannot "pay" that and they cave in somewhere along the line. We also have to "count the cost" of bearing our own crosses daily and the cross speaks of potential execution or death at the hands of a mostly Christ-hating world. Again, some cave in and simply cannot "pay" the same and do you want to know what one of the reasons for the same is?
It's because people LIKE YOU fail to tell them that there is a "cost" to following Christ which they must "sit down FIRST" and consider and they begin to build and are unable to finish.
I mean, you just told me that there's no "cost" for me to pay, didn't you? I'm sorry, friend, but you're greatly misleading people when you tell them the same. I understand that the purchasing price in relation to my redemption was paid via Christ's blood, but this doesn't mean that there's no "cost" involved at my end as far as following Him is concerned. In Matthew's account, we read:
"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." (Matthew 10:16-22)
Jesus continued:
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." (Matthew 10:34-39)
Yes, Jesus warned His disciples that they needed to endure unto the end to be saved because He sends us out like sheep among wolves. Some can expect to not only be brought before councils and scourged, but also to be betrayed by their own siblings or even their own parents. What Jesus was telling them wasn't really anything new. In fact, He was merely recounting the words of the prophet Micah who, under Divine inspiration, wrote:
"Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom. For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house." (Micah 7:5-6)
Although I'm "Mr. insignificant nobody" in and of myself, as a follower of Christ, I've suffered and endured several of the above things and what has helped me to endure the same is that I've truly "FIRST counted the cost" of following Christ. As such, when tribulation and persecution have arisen and come my way for Christ's and the gospel's sake, I've stayed my course, by the grace of God, and I've not fallen away or turned back. Many do fall away or turn back, however, and it's guys LIKE YOU who help contribute to the same by telling them, even as you've recently told me, that there is no "cost" at our end. Again, you're greatly deceived in this, friend, and you're greatly deceiving those who are foolish enough to believe you when you tell them the same. There is coming a day of reckoning when you'll need to give an account for every idle word which you have spoken, so I'd strongly advise you to stop lying to both yourself and others in this regard.
Yes, I can keep my "savour" or "saltiness". Salt is a preservative or an agent which helps to prevent decay and Christians are called to be "the salt of the earth" or to "prevent decay" via their own godly lives and via the spreading of the gospel. Those who refuse to do either or both have "lost their saltiness". Furthermore, the underlying Greek word "mōrainō" which is here translated as "savour" appears 4 times in the New Testament and 2 of those places might surprise you:
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools," (Romans 1:21-22)
Here, those who once knew God and glorified Him not as God "became fools" or literally "lost their savour". Look it up. It's just as I said.
"Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?" (I Corinthians 1:20)
Again, the underlying Greek word which is here translated as "foolish" is "mōrainō". Do we then "lose our savour" or our "saltiness" when we embrace the wisdom of this world? You tell me. The only other place where this Greek word is used in the New Testament besides our text from Luke chapter 14 is here:
"Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:13-16)
Again, CHRISTIANS are "the salt of the earth" and they are therefore the only ones who could possibly be in danger of "losing their savour". CHRISTIANS are also "the light of the world" and that light is not to be hidden under a bushel. Similarly, our "salt" is to be shared with the world. If it isn't? Well, you know...
Again, Christ's point was that there are going to be more against us than for us in this "war" and if we don't "count this COST FIRST", then we're likely to fall away by "desiring conditions of peace" with the enemy of our souls or with Satan. If you don't like that Christ said these things, then go argue them with Him. Good luck with that.
"And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned? It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." (Luke 14:25-35)
Being a true follower of Christ means that we may face the rejection of our father, our mother, our wife, our children, our brothers and our sisters and some simply cannot "pay" that and they cave in somewhere along the line. We also have to "count the cost" of bearing our own crosses daily and the cross speaks of potential execution or death at the hands of a mostly Christ-hating world. Again, some cave in and simply cannot "pay" the same and do you want to know what one of the reasons for the same is?
It's because people LIKE YOU fail to tell them that there is a "cost" to following Christ which they must "sit down FIRST" and consider and they begin to build and are unable to finish.
I mean, you just told me that there's no "cost" for me to pay, didn't you? I'm sorry, friend, but you're greatly misleading people when you tell them the same. I understand that the purchasing price in relation to my redemption was paid via Christ's blood, but this doesn't mean that there's no "cost" involved at my end as far as following Him is concerned. In Matthew's account, we read:
"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." (Matthew 10:16-22)
Jesus continued:
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." (Matthew 10:34-39)
Yes, Jesus warned His disciples that they needed to endure unto the end to be saved because He sends us out like sheep among wolves. Some can expect to not only be brought before councils and scourged, but also to be betrayed by their own siblings or even their own parents. What Jesus was telling them wasn't really anything new. In fact, He was merely recounting the words of the prophet Micah who, under Divine inspiration, wrote:
"Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom. For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house." (Micah 7:5-6)
Although I'm "Mr. insignificant nobody" in and of myself, as a follower of Christ, I've suffered and endured several of the above things and what has helped me to endure the same is that I've truly "FIRST counted the cost" of following Christ. As such, when tribulation and persecution have arisen and come my way for Christ's and the gospel's sake, I've stayed my course, by the grace of God, and I've not fallen away or turned back. Many do fall away or turn back, however, and it's guys LIKE YOU who help contribute to the same by telling them, even as you've recently told me, that there is no "cost" at our end. Again, you're greatly deceived in this, friend, and you're greatly deceiving those who are foolish enough to believe you when you tell them the same. There is coming a day of reckoning when you'll need to give an account for every idle word which you have spoken, so I'd strongly advise you to stop lying to both yourself and others in this regard.
Yes, I can keep my "savour" or "saltiness". Salt is a preservative or an agent which helps to prevent decay and Christians are called to be "the salt of the earth" or to "prevent decay" via their own godly lives and via the spreading of the gospel. Those who refuse to do either or both have "lost their saltiness". Furthermore, the underlying Greek word "mōrainō" which is here translated as "savour" appears 4 times in the New Testament and 2 of those places might surprise you:
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools," (Romans 1:21-22)
Here, those who once knew God and glorified Him not as God "became fools" or literally "lost their savour". Look it up. It's just as I said.
"Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?" (I Corinthians 1:20)
Again, the underlying Greek word which is here translated as "foolish" is "mōrainō". Do we then "lose our savour" or our "saltiness" when we embrace the wisdom of this world? You tell me. The only other place where this Greek word is used in the New Testament besides our text from Luke chapter 14 is here:
"Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:13-16)
Again, CHRISTIANS are "the salt of the earth" and they are therefore the only ones who could possibly be in danger of "losing their savour". CHRISTIANS are also "the light of the world" and that light is not to be hidden under a bushel. Similarly, our "salt" is to be shared with the world. If it isn't? Well, you know...
Again, Christ's point was that there are going to be more against us than for us in this "war" and if we don't "count this COST FIRST", then we're likely to fall away by "desiring conditions of peace" with the enemy of our souls or with Satan. If you don't like that Christ said these things, then go argue them with Him. Good luck with that.
Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures
(1 Corinthians 15:1-4)
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures
(1 Corinthians 15:1-4)
Paul lays it out plain for us.
this is the gospel: Christ died for our sins, was buried and raised again the third day.
firmly holding that confidence until the end is how we stand.
this leads to holy living, but it doesn't depend on holy living.
this leads to good works, but it doesn't depend on good works.
you want to make it your life's purpose to inform us that we can lose our salvation? great.
but let's be clear about how that can happen:
If we disown him, he will also disown us
(2 Timothy 2:12)
(2 Timothy 2:12)
so if you want to call the foolish virgins those who lost salvation, they are those who disowned the Father. is that being faithless? is that having no works? no. read on.
if we are faithless,he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
(2 Timothy 2:13)
to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly,
their faith is credited as righteousness.
(Romans 4:5)
for he cannot disown himself.
(2 Timothy 2:13)
to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly,
their faith is credited as righteousness.
(Romans 4:5)
seeing as you're an expert on losing salvation, and i, having confidence in Him, am obviously just a babe in such matters, could you kindly inform me about how to disown God? keeping in mind that it's not faithlessness or lack of works?
thanks!
Amen to that....I have said many times that it is a mistake to take every place that saved is used and apply it to soul salvation.......unfortunately those who teach you can lose it will regularly take the word saved and every place it is used and erroneously apply it to soul salvation! What a mistake for sure!
J
And what does it mean to "believe"? Did the Philippian jailer just have a mental assent towards God and/or Christ or was his life actually changed as a direct result of what he now "believed"? Here's part of the account:
"And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed. And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house. And when it was day, the magistrates sent the serjeants, saying, Let those men go. And the keeper of the prison told this saying to Paul, The magistrates have sent to let you go: now therefore depart, and go in peace." (Acts 16:26-36)
For starters, Paul and Silas didn't merely tell the keeper of the prison to "believe", but they also "spoke unto him the word of the Lord". Elsewhere in Acts, Luke recorded for us what Paul preached and taught everywhere in obedience to what the Lord had called him to do:
"At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee: To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance." (Acts 26:13-20)
Paul's calling was to open people's eyes by turning them from darkness to light and from the power of Satan unto God and he faithfully obeyed such a calling by telling people everywhere to repent and to turn to God and to do works meet for or worthy of repentance, so it's safe to assume that "the word of the Lord" which Paul spoke to the Philippian jailer included such admonitions. Was there any visible change in the jailer? Sure, there was. For starters, he got baptized. Gee, I wonder how he knew to do that? You don't suppose that Paul spoke to him about the same, do you? Of course, he did and this was part of his admonition for the Philippian jailer to "believe". The jailer also washed Paul's and Silas' stripes or wounds, brought them into his house and fed them and eventually told Paul and Silas to "go in peace". IOW, he brought forth works meet for or worthy of repentance, so don't forget to include the same in your definition of what it means to "believe" on the Lord Jesus Christ in the future. Some of us have actually read the Bible and it's not so easy to just slip parsed verses past us without us knowing what they actually mean.
Here's the text:
"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (Colossians 1:21-23)
Contextually, not that context seems to mean anything at all to you, Paul was referring to the "hope" of which he had just made mention:
"For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;" (Colossians 1:5)
Again, here's the context, not that context means anything to you:
"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." (Hebrews 3:6)
Again, this "confidence" is directly linked to "the hope" of which the writer was speaking throughout the epistle and that "hope" is the "hope" of eternal life in the kingdom to come:
"And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6:11-12)
The Philippian jailer now had "the light" of the gospel of Christ within him.
The Philippian jailer was now born of the Spirit.
Your point?
Yes, I do.
Yes, I do.
My hope is in Christ, the forerunner Who has entered into the veil before me in the Holy of holies in heaven, and in that I'll one day have a incorruptible body like He has and my confidence is found in the fact that it is impossible for God to lie. If I endure unto the end or if I remain in Christ, then I will inherit eternal life. This isn't rocket science.
In case you haven't yet heard, Christians are admonished to not faint in the New Testament.
In case you haven't yet heard, Christians can "fail of the grace of God":
"Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;" (Hebrews 12:15)
Yes, Hebrew CHRISTIANS were admonished to "look diligently lest any fail of the grace of God". Of course, in your heretical beliefs, such isn't even possible and, instead, the inspired writer of the epistle to the Hebrew CHRISTIANS was a heretic, right? Better still, the God Who inspired him to write that is a heretic, right? All hail our new "god" and king:
posthuman.
I'll pass. I'll never bow to your error, friend. Never.
My own strength has given out more times than I care to remember which is why I ever seek to "be strong in the Lord and the power of His might". And...?
Jesus spoke of a "vessel" or "reservoir" of "oil". Will you alter His words yet again? Apparently, you will.
I already have confidence in Christ, but both that and my hope can fail if I allow them to and I have no intention of doing the same. Of course, contrary to the plain teachings of scripture, you stubbornly deny that such can even happen. You do realize that you're going to have to answer directly to the Lord for the same one day, don't you? Repent while there's still time to do so.
Sigh...
Here we go, again.
The whole context of Jude's epistle was in relation to those who have "turned the grace of God into lasciviousness", thereby denying the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. Sound familiar? Jude, while contending for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints, reminded his readers of the following:
"I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not." (Jude 1:5)
Let's see now...
"HAVING SAVED...AFTERWARD DESTROYED THEM THAT BELIEVED NOT".
Yea, that sounds like "once saved, always saved"...if I stick my head in the toaster oven for about a half an hour. In what sense did they "believe not"? Well, if you've ever read the account, then you know that they "believed not" in that they turned to idolatry, murmured against the Lord Himself and His appointed leader, committed fornication, tempted Christ, etc., etc., etc. Listen, friend, they "believed" in God's existence, didn't they? Of course, they did. They saw the plagues, they saw the parting of the Red Sea, they heard God's voice thunder from Mt. Sinai, they ate the manna from heaven, they drank water out of the rock, etc., etc., etc., BUT THEY REFUSED TO OBEY GOD.
Anyhow, here's your cherry-picked text:
"But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen." (Jude 1:20-25)
Yes, God is able to keep us from falling, but we have a part to play in all of this. Not only do we need to guard ourselves against the likes of those who turn the grace of God into lasciviousness, but we need to build up ourselves by praying in the Holy Ghost and by keeping ourselves in the love of God. Just because God is able to keep us from falling, this doesn't mean that it's automatic. I already cited you from Peter's epistle earlier today where we need to give all diligence to add certain things unto our faith and all diligence to make our calling and election sure THAT WE MIGHT NOT FALL FROM OUR OWN STEDFASTNESS. I could easily cite you other warnings from scripture about the potential for CHRISTIANS to fall, so why do you willfully ignore the same?
You're persistent in your parsed, cherry-picked verses...I'll give you that. Here's what Paul said:
"I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace." (Philippians 1:3-7)
And...?
Paul was praying for the Philippians and he was confident that He Who had begun a good work in them would perform it until the day of Christ. Does this mean that the Philippians had no part in the same? For crying out loud, he went on to tell them to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12), didn't he? Furthermore, need I remind you that Paul was also "confident" that he was going to see the Philippians again?
"And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again." (Philippians 1:25-26)
How did that work out? Was Paul's "confidence" misplaced? Did he ever get to come to the Philippians again?
You do realize that the Rock that followed the children of Israel in the wilderness was Christ, don't you? You also realize, I hope, that they all "drank of that spiritual drink", right? How'd that turn out?
More lies.
dcon brought up the whole "salvation" issue in relation to "verb tense" in his opening post. You can't seem to get anything right and yet you rage on.
More deceit on your part. We're admonished as Christians to exhort one another daily so that nobody casts away their confidence. If by obeying the scriptures I offend you, then too bad. I'm not going to disobey God to make you or anybody else happy.
If you feel that I skipped anything of importance, then just tell me what it is and I'll address it. If I skipped anything, then it was probably to save you from further embarrassment. Finally, the "gymnast" is you. You've butchered the scriptures left and right even as I've been documenting. You don't seem overly concerned about the same, but you should be. Again, it's ultimately your choice, but you will give an account for it one day.
"And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed. And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house. And when it was day, the magistrates sent the serjeants, saying, Let those men go. And the keeper of the prison told this saying to Paul, The magistrates have sent to let you go: now therefore depart, and go in peace." (Acts 16:26-36)
For starters, Paul and Silas didn't merely tell the keeper of the prison to "believe", but they also "spoke unto him the word of the Lord". Elsewhere in Acts, Luke recorded for us what Paul preached and taught everywhere in obedience to what the Lord had called him to do:
"At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee: To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance." (Acts 26:13-20)
Paul's calling was to open people's eyes by turning them from darkness to light and from the power of Satan unto God and he faithfully obeyed such a calling by telling people everywhere to repent and to turn to God and to do works meet for or worthy of repentance, so it's safe to assume that "the word of the Lord" which Paul spoke to the Philippian jailer included such admonitions. Was there any visible change in the jailer? Sure, there was. For starters, he got baptized. Gee, I wonder how he knew to do that? You don't suppose that Paul spoke to him about the same, do you? Of course, he did and this was part of his admonition for the Philippian jailer to "believe". The jailer also washed Paul's and Silas' stripes or wounds, brought them into his house and fed them and eventually told Paul and Silas to "go in peace". IOW, he brought forth works meet for or worthy of repentance, so don't forget to include the same in your definition of what it means to "believe" on the Lord Jesus Christ in the future. Some of us have actually read the Bible and it's not so easy to just slip parsed verses past us without us knowing what they actually mean.
Here's the text:
"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (Colossians 1:21-23)
Contextually, not that context seems to mean anything at all to you, Paul was referring to the "hope" of which he had just made mention:
"For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;" (Colossians 1:5)
Again, here's the context, not that context means anything to you:
"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." (Hebrews 3:6)
Again, this "confidence" is directly linked to "the hope" of which the writer was speaking throughout the epistle and that "hope" is the "hope" of eternal life in the kingdom to come:
"And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6:11-12)
The Philippian jailer now had "the light" of the gospel of Christ within him.
The Philippian jailer was now born of the Spirit.
Your point?
Yes, I do.
Yes, I do.
My hope is in Christ, the forerunner Who has entered into the veil before me in the Holy of holies in heaven, and in that I'll one day have a incorruptible body like He has and my confidence is found in the fact that it is impossible for God to lie. If I endure unto the end or if I remain in Christ, then I will inherit eternal life. This isn't rocket science.
In case you haven't yet heard, Christians are admonished to not faint in the New Testament.
In case you haven't yet heard, Christians can "fail of the grace of God":
"Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;" (Hebrews 12:15)
Yes, Hebrew CHRISTIANS were admonished to "look diligently lest any fail of the grace of God". Of course, in your heretical beliefs, such isn't even possible and, instead, the inspired writer of the epistle to the Hebrew CHRISTIANS was a heretic, right? Better still, the God Who inspired him to write that is a heretic, right? All hail our new "god" and king:
posthuman.
I'll pass. I'll never bow to your error, friend. Never.
My own strength has given out more times than I care to remember which is why I ever seek to "be strong in the Lord and the power of His might". And...?
Jesus spoke of a "vessel" or "reservoir" of "oil". Will you alter His words yet again? Apparently, you will.
I already have confidence in Christ, but both that and my hope can fail if I allow them to and I have no intention of doing the same. Of course, contrary to the plain teachings of scripture, you stubbornly deny that such can even happen. You do realize that you're going to have to answer directly to the Lord for the same one day, don't you? Repent while there's still time to do so.
Sigh...
Here we go, again.
The whole context of Jude's epistle was in relation to those who have "turned the grace of God into lasciviousness", thereby denying the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. Sound familiar? Jude, while contending for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints, reminded his readers of the following:
"I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not." (Jude 1:5)
Let's see now...
"HAVING SAVED...AFTERWARD DESTROYED THEM THAT BELIEVED NOT".
Yea, that sounds like "once saved, always saved"...if I stick my head in the toaster oven for about a half an hour. In what sense did they "believe not"? Well, if you've ever read the account, then you know that they "believed not" in that they turned to idolatry, murmured against the Lord Himself and His appointed leader, committed fornication, tempted Christ, etc., etc., etc. Listen, friend, they "believed" in God's existence, didn't they? Of course, they did. They saw the plagues, they saw the parting of the Red Sea, they heard God's voice thunder from Mt. Sinai, they ate the manna from heaven, they drank water out of the rock, etc., etc., etc., BUT THEY REFUSED TO OBEY GOD.
Anyhow, here's your cherry-picked text:
"But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen." (Jude 1:20-25)
Yes, God is able to keep us from falling, but we have a part to play in all of this. Not only do we need to guard ourselves against the likes of those who turn the grace of God into lasciviousness, but we need to build up ourselves by praying in the Holy Ghost and by keeping ourselves in the love of God. Just because God is able to keep us from falling, this doesn't mean that it's automatic. I already cited you from Peter's epistle earlier today where we need to give all diligence to add certain things unto our faith and all diligence to make our calling and election sure THAT WE MIGHT NOT FALL FROM OUR OWN STEDFASTNESS. I could easily cite you other warnings from scripture about the potential for CHRISTIANS to fall, so why do you willfully ignore the same?
You're persistent in your parsed, cherry-picked verses...I'll give you that. Here's what Paul said:
"I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace." (Philippians 1:3-7)
And...?
Paul was praying for the Philippians and he was confident that He Who had begun a good work in them would perform it until the day of Christ. Does this mean that the Philippians had no part in the same? For crying out loud, he went on to tell them to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12), didn't he? Furthermore, need I remind you that Paul was also "confident" that he was going to see the Philippians again?
"And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again." (Philippians 1:25-26)
How did that work out? Was Paul's "confidence" misplaced? Did he ever get to come to the Philippians again?
You do realize that the Rock that followed the children of Israel in the wilderness was Christ, don't you? You also realize, I hope, that they all "drank of that spiritual drink", right? How'd that turn out?
More lies.
dcon brought up the whole "salvation" issue in relation to "verb tense" in his opening post. You can't seem to get anything right and yet you rage on.
More deceit on your part. We're admonished as Christians to exhort one another daily so that nobody casts away their confidence. If by obeying the scriptures I offend you, then too bad. I'm not going to disobey God to make you or anybody else happy.
If you feel that I skipped anything of importance, then just tell me what it is and I'll address it. If I skipped anything, then it was probably to save you from further embarrassment. Finally, the "gymnast" is you. You've butchered the scriptures left and right even as I've been documenting. You don't seem overly concerned about the same, but you should be. Again, it's ultimately your choice, but you will give an account for it one day.