Question for End Times' believers:

[popeye]

I've seen many people on here who believe in the modern version of End Times events. I've noticed something odd though. Absolutely no one agrees with each other. Odder still, no one agrees with each others yet still pull out the same verses to prove beliefs that don't match other End Timer beliefs using the same exact verses.

So, here are my questions:
1. Have you noticed that too?
2. How do you rectify it? Everyone else is wrong? Are you Athanasius against the world? Or are you Joseph Smith against the world?

1) yes
2)I don't think anything will rectify it. I take it on anyway because it is fascinating to me. I see it as a debate and my"job" is to make my opponent refute the word..

Could be one against another as you say,but if a person takes more to the table than the next guy,and explains HONESTLY, any grand canyon leaps,then there should be at least a basis for discussion.

Concerning the rapture,only one position can say HONESTLY "come lord Jesus",and that same position brings the bride/groom dimension into the picture.

 

[atwhatcost]

they are good questions, Lynn,

on this 'forum', there are so many 'view-points' about 'end-time prophecy', and the 'members' are
coming from a variety of theological backgrounds so their opinions and understanding will be very diverse...
and just personally, because it is very difficult to find any 'common-ground' on this particular subject,
we avoid it......

also we have found that when we are moved to answer others in general, that an attitude of
'I am right and he is wrong' should never be present...but a desire to hear and understand
and hopefully share in another's experiences so that we may find some kind of 'common ground' of love,
this should be our objective...
even if we don't agree with someone else's interpretation and understanding, we can respect them and honor
their walk and sincerity....because it's THE WALK that is all important in our lives.
in our hearts, we always pray that we will all come together eventually down the way and come into
The Unity of The Faith.....we are looking forward to this with all of our hearts.....

that over-powering desire for Brethren in very, very, powerful and the excitement we feel when we do find
that 'common-ground' is like the ointment dripping down Aaron's beard....

sometimes this isn't apparent, but if the heart's intent is striving for pureness in Christ and love of
the brethren, then peace will eventually come into our hearts, here a little, there a little.

I really don't understand the vast majority of different flavors of End Times, but I also don't think this is a point that says "we can not walk in fellowship because of these differences" usually.

The one thing that worries me is when the belief overpowers the rest of what it is to be in God.

Too often End Time beliefs is their belief. That's it. Either it has to happen exactly like they think it will happen or God can't be God. It covers over their politics, their family life, how they relate to all others and, quite possibly, what they see when they look at their living room. There is nothing else to see except for that belief, and there is no answer about God they can give but that belief.

That's what scares me. That's what I see too often on here. So, what if they're wrong? Does God disappear. Does earth disappear? Does everything just fall into a vacuum of nothingness because they thought they were right, but weren't?

I really get expecting God to do something a certain way, but he doesn't. Very baffling, and then I remember, "He's God. I'm not. His ways aren't my way. And Thank God for that, because my ways muck stuff up." What happens if I'm so sure my way is God's way that I cannot accept I could be wrong?

That's were fellowship ends.

 

[atwhatcost]

I don't mind if I don't understand the end times. I'm trying to work on other things in my life, and I've never held any particular views of what I think will happen. Que sera sera?

(But eschatology is a fun word, so I never miss a chance to say it. Eschatology eschatology esch... never mind.)

And you can spell it right. I'm impressed. (Seriously. I avoid that word, because then I'd have to go find it to spell it. lol)

 

[atwhatcost]

I have noticed a lot of things here on CC. I have noticed that many of them cannot be reconciled with scripture.

Many of the problems encountered here on CC stem from an incorrect knowledge of Christ. I have no problem with being against the world. I cannot afford to be against Christ.

Let God be true and every man by comparison a liar.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I can ask the same thing of you, you know? How do you know you alone have the correct knowledge of Christ? How are you different?

 

[atwhatcost]

1) yes
2)I don't think anything will rectify it. I take it on anyway because it is fascinating to me. I see it as a debate and my"job" is to make my opponent refute the word..

Could be one against another as you say,but if a person takes more to the table than the next guy,and explains HONESTLY, any grand canyon leaps,then there should be at least a basis for discussion.

Concerning the rapture,only one position can say HONESTLY "come lord Jesus",and that same position brings the bride/groom dimension into the picture.

So not your job to rectify yourself? Just your job to taunt others? To push them to believe as you do? If I'm getting that straight, would you mind using scripture to back that up? Because, if need be, I can find a lot of scripture about loving, fellowship and even approving ourselves, and note that's approving self, not forcing others), but nothing on it's all about the debate.

(Oh, BTW, I can also disprove rapture, but you wouldn't like that and this isn't about what views everyone has. It's about rectifying them well within the invisible church.)

 

[PennEd]

Can the Lord tarry a hundred or thousand yrs or more? You betcha! He's the Lord.

Are all the elements there Scripturally for Him to come THIS second? You betcha! He's the Lord! WE are suppose to live AS IF He's coming THIS second!

 

[notuptome]

I can ask the same thing of you, you know? How do you know you alone have the correct knowledge of Christ? How are you different?

First I never said I was the only one who had a correct knowledge of Christ. I do have a correct knowledge of Christ by the witness of the Holy Spirit and the word of God. I believe in and have trusted the Christ of the bible. I am saved by grace and I boast nothing of works save what Christ has done through me.

I am stressing a right or correct knowledge of Christ because that is the foundation which we must have to begin to understand the truths of Gods word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[atwhatcost]

First I never said I was the only one who had a correct knowledge of Christ. I do have a correct knowledge of Christ by the witness of the Holy Spirit and the word of God. I believe in and have trusted the Christ of the bible. I am saved by grace and I boast nothing of works save what Christ has done through me.

I am stressing a right or correct knowledge of Christ because that is the foundation which we must have to begin to understand the truths of Gods word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

True but you did say you are in the minority on here.

I have noticed a lot of things here on CC. I have noticed that many of them cannot be reconciled with scripture.

Many of the problems encountered here on CC stem from an incorrect knowledge of Christ. I have no problem with being against the world. I cannot afford to be against Christ.

Let God be true and every man by comparison a liar.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

And you are as sure that you are right as they are wrong, while, all along, they too proclaim "knowledge of Christ" as their authority. What's the difference?

So, here are my questions:
1. Have you noticed that too?
2. How do you rectify it? Everyone else is wrong? Are you Athanasius against the world? Or are you Joseph Smith against the world?

You told me you noticed that about "a lot" and/or "many of them." So, answer the second question. This never was to educate myself about End Times beliefs. It was to ask how do people know they are right when most others disagree with them? It's not just a belief. It's an attitude. You have the attitude, but wrap it in "For the cause of Christ." Theologically speaking, what's the difference? Are you Athanasius or Joseph Smith?

 

[popeye]

So not your job to rectify yourself? Just your job to taunt others? To push them to believe as you do? If I'm getting that straight, would you mind using scripture to back that up? Because, if need be, I can find a lot of scripture about loving, fellowship and even approving ourselves, and note that's approving self, not forcing others), but nothing on it's all about the debate.

(Oh, BTW, I can also disprove rapture, but you wouldn't like that and this isn't about what views everyone has. It's about rectifying them well within the invisible church.)

I dunno,your post is ugly.Bad attitude. Then you accuse others of not being loving.

Whats up with the "ttude"?

You asked us to reply,did you not?

 

[atwhatcost]

I dunno,your post is ugly.Bad attitude. Then you accuse others of not being loving.

Whats up with the "ttude"?

You asked us to reply,did you not?

Yup. And haven't received one yet. Much defense. No replies.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Actually, she did receive my reply, but she has me on ignore. Whatever.

 

[AceMichaels]

True but you did say you are in the minority on here.


And you are as sure that you are right as they are wrong, while, all along, they too proclaim "knowledge of Christ" as their authority. What's the difference?


You told me you noticed that about "a lot" and/or "many of them." So, answer the second question. This never was to educate myself about End Times beliefs. It was to ask how do people know they are right when most others disagree with them? It's not just a belief. It's an attitude. You have the attitude, but wrap it in "For the cause of Christ." Theologically speaking, what's the difference? Are you Athanasius or Joseph Smith?

My question exactly!!! With all the supposed true christians professing different beliefs, all claiming guidance from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion, self-righteous human beings are

 

[crossnote]

Well of course I believe the view I hold is right, if I didn't, I wouldn't hold to it as inconclusive as it is.
I run on the pattern that "after looking into other end times schemes, the one I hold presents the fewest problems while agreeing with the most Scripture on a meta narrative scale".

 

[atwhatcost]

Actually, she did receive my reply, but she has me on ignore. Whatever.

Everybody means "everybody." I do, sometimes, read what you say, but when you say nothing related to my questions there really is no point in responding. (No point in reading often either, because this is Standard MO, but I keep having hope.)

I shall put the emphasis on the word everyone is busy ignoring this time.

So, here are my questions:
1. Have you noticed that too?
2. How do you rectify it? Everyone else is wrong? Are you Athanasius against the world? Or are you Joseph Smith against the world?

Everyone is explaining what's wrong with everyone else, without telling me about "you."

Kind of obvious everyone would have to be wrong, if you're the only one to get it right. (Everyone is telling me this anyway, as if maybe I can't get that, but it is that obvious.) That leaves me to ask the obvious question.. yet again. How do YOU rectify that in your mind?

Much defense. No answers yet. (I'm hoping Crossnote answers.)

 

[atwhatcost]

Well of course I believe the view I hold is right, if I didn't, I wouldn't hold to it as inconclusive as it is.
I run on the pattern that "after looking into other end times schemes, the one I hold presents the fewest problems while agreeing with the most Scripture on a meta narrative scale".

Bummer. There dashed my hope. Really? Your measuring up against a postmodern measuring stick? Bummer. God and his word aren't postmodern. Are you trying to update it? Why to that? Sort of like fitting scripture into Freud or Jung. Got to be tough, and I really don't get the purpose of trying.

So, here are my questions:
1. Have you noticed that too?
2. How do you rectify it? Everyone else is wrong? Are you Athanasius against the world? Or are you Joseph Smith against the world?

How about answer the second question?

 

[atwhatcost]

I've seen many people on here who believe in the modern version of End Times events. I've noticed something odd though. Absolutely no one agrees with each other. Odder still, no one agrees with each others yet still pull out the same verses to prove beliefs that don't match other End Timer beliefs using the same exact verses.

So, here are my questions:
1. Have you noticed that too?
2. How do you rectify it? Everyone else is wrong? Are you Athanasius against the world? Or are you Joseph Smith against the world?

It occurs to me that maybe my questions aren't clear. This is quite possible, since my main problem as a writer is I know what I mean, but readers don't always know what I mean. So, maybe if I answer these two questions for my End Time beliefs, others will get a sense of what I'm asking.

1. Of course I notice many don't share my belief. I don't really expect them to. It's not a matter of salvation in itself, although, like I mentioned before, I sometimes worry other people have their End Time beliefs set up to be cojoined with God. Only then is it a problem for me. And my only problem then is how to get through to them on the real gospel.

2. I am not Athanasius, because I'm not the only one with my belief. The logic behind my belief is simple, plain, easy to understand if anyone ever bothered to ask me, God centered, instead of me centered, and gives all the room needed to be wrong. Matter of fact, although someone could argue against my belief, they'd have a hard time doing so, because the only way they could would be to promote their belief, instead of simply promoting God. That's why so many of us have this belief and yet see no real need to defend it.

And, nope, not Joseph-Smith-like belief, because nothing of it comes as a special word from God that can lead anyone astray from him nor can turn it into a religion where the belief is the center, instead of God being the center.

Because it is God-centered, I really don't have to rectify it for myself. I don't have to make excuses for it to continue to be part of my beliefs system, nor do I have a need to promote it to get others "on-board." I don't have to worry that I could be wrong. It's open enough that I could be wrong, but in a way that God can't be upset with me for simply misreading it. It can't be misread. I'd need a Bible with an extra book or two added before it could be misread, and, unlike Calvin, I've got no problems believing all the books that are consider canon to be canoned. I've no doubt God gave us a book containing all information we should know in it. (I've also no doubt that I will never get all that is contained in it in this lifetime, and look forward to getting it all when I'm with God in eternity.)

See? That's the answer I was looking for. No need to defend the belief. Only explaining how I fit with the invisible church, and how I'm not part of the my-salvation-depends-on-this crowd. Only explaining how I handle MY belief, not defending it at all.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

1. Of course I notice many don't share my belief. I don't really expect them to. It's not a matter of salvation in itself, although, like I mentioned before, I sometimes worry other people have their End Time beliefs set up to be cojoined with God. Only then is it a problem for me. And my only problem then is how to get through to them on the real gospel.

What does "people have their end time beliefs set up to be cojoined with God" mean?

In any case, "the real gospel" includes speaking of the end times. Jesus spoke of them and the apostles and prophets spoke of them as well.

 

[atwhatcost]

What does "people have their end time beliefs set up to be cojoined with God" mean?

In any case, "the real gospel" includes speaking of the end times. Jesus spoke of them and the apostles and prophets spoke of them as well.

God on his thrown + End Time Belief = salvation. Aka cojoined.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

God on his thrown + End Time Belief = salvation. Aka cojoined.

Ah, okay.

I personally believe that having the wrong end time beliefs could affect somebody's salvation and here is one example of why I believe the same:

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand); Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:3-31)

In regard to "the sign of His coming and the end of the world", Jesus repeatedly warned HIS DISCIPLES to not let any man deceive them. He basically broke down the three different claimed timeframes for His coming here when He spoke of:

1. The timeframe prior to "the abomination of desolation" which was spoken of by the prophet Daniel being set up.
2. The timeframe which immediately followed "the abomination of desolation" which was spoken of by the prophet Daniel being set up.
3. The timeframe of "immediately after the tribulation of those days" when He said that He is actually going to return.

As such, it's imperative for us to know exactly what "the abomination of desolation" is all about so that we don't get deceived into believing that Jesus is somehow returning before it is set up or immediately after it is set up. Jesus warned how that "the love (agape) of many would wax (grow) cold" because of the iniquity that is going to abound during different timeframes, so we need to know what these timeframes actually are to guard ourselves against the same. We must, according to Jesus, endure unto the end to be saved.

 

[atwhatcost]

Ah, okay.

I personally believe that having the wrong end time beliefs could affect somebody's salvation and here is one example of why I believe the same:

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand); Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:3-31)

In regard to "the sign of His coming and the end of the world", Jesus repeatedly warned HIS DISCIPLES to not let any man deceive them. He basically broke down the three different claimed timeframes for His coming here when He spoke of:

1. The timeframe prior to "the abomination of desolation" which was spoken of by the prophet Daniel being set up.
2. The timeframe which immediately followed "the abomination of desolation" which was spoken of by the prophet Daniel being set up.
3. The timeframe of "immediately after the tribulation of those days" when He said that He is actually going to return.

As such, it's imperative for us to know exactly what "the abomination of desolation" is all about so that we don't get deceived into believing that Jesus is somehow returning before it is set up or immediately after it is set up. Jesus warned how that "the love (agape) of many would wax (grow) cold" because of the iniquity that is going to abound during different timeframes, so we need to know what these timeframes actually are to guard ourselves against the same. We must, according to Jesus, endure unto the end to be saved.

And there you go right back into defending your belief and trying to get others to be on board with it.

No, we really don't need to know "timeframes." We need to trust God enough to walk with him. We need to be prepared for anything every day. But again, easier to give lessons on some End Time belief than face the obvious, Jesus was preparing those men for their lives and us for ours. They were all headed for their own crosses and devastation. Many of us simply have to keep making decisions on what God wants us to do as we follow him. Really hard to keep rereading signs while dealing with "and now what, God" of every day life.

From what I've seen of your personal belief system, I don't think you're doing well with understanding God's word or applying it. You're too busy trying to defend what you believe.