Rich and Famous Pastors
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K
We are all in agreement that we are called to help the poor. As far as I can see all people here all agree on that. What we don't agree on is whether we can judge a Joel O. on his heart attitude based on his finances and what he buys and if that means he does or does not have a heart for God. (and people)
Judging and rebuking? None of us are in a place to rebuke or reprove people we have no personal relationship or knowledge of. In any relationship, we earn the right to reprove or rebuke one another who we have a relationship with, and even then we should do it very carefully because we don't know everything. There is a major process before rushing in with the rebuking and reproving "gifts"
Generally Pastors and leaders in the local churches are called to this. Reproving and rebuking is yet another thing we should take very seriously.
Actually all this speculation about rich people like Joel O. or any of the well known preachers is all hypothetical because no one in these chat rooms knows the personal lives of these well known believers,. except what can be seen like the houses they have or the clothes they wear etc.. etc... it's just a bunch of speculation based on what you can see.
Instead we should always give our brothers and sisters in Christ the benefit of the doubt and think well of them instead of jumping on the band wagon of unsaved public opinion. We of all people should show love for one another as Abing pointed out in her post.
Anyway., I feel like this is beating a dead horse of a topic. We each have our own opinion about this so lets agree to disagree.
Judging and rebuking? None of us are in a place to rebuke or reprove people we have no personal relationship or knowledge of. In any relationship, we earn the right to reprove or rebuke one another who we have a relationship with, and even then we should do it very carefully because we don't know everything. There is a major process before rushing in with the rebuking and reproving "gifts"
Generally Pastors and leaders in the local churches are called to this. Reproving and rebuking is yet another thing we should take very seriously. Actually all this speculation about rich people like Joel O. or any of the well known preachers is all hypothetical because no one in these chat rooms knows the personal lives of these well known believers,. except what can be seen like the houses they have or the clothes they wear etc.. etc... it's just a bunch of speculation based on what you can see.
Instead we should always give our brothers and sisters in Christ the benefit of the doubt and think well of them instead of jumping on the band wagon of unsaved public opinion. We of all people should show love for one another as Abing pointed out in her post.
Anyway., I feel like this is beating a dead horse of a topic. We each have our own opinion about this so lets agree to disagree.
[h=1]1 Timothy 6:3-14[/h][h=3]Error and Greed[/h]3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions,5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.
6 Now godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. 9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
[h=3]The Good Confession[/h]11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing,
K
The Word of God does not come from private interpretations, it comes from God who by His Holy Spirit will guide us in all truth in what is being said. (2 Peter 2:10, James 1:5, Luke 11:9)
Some have lost sight of this truth that is in the word of God and have placed other men, man made teaching systems, and self moral and customs before the Holy Spirit. The other thing I have heard from some lately is that the Holy Spirit does not speak to us directly, only in the word is how He speaks.
I know personally that is not the case because I can be out in the field working or down fishing and I will hear Him speak to me.
The Holy Spirit can not lie and we are told to test others in what they say, and that testing comes from the scriptures.
So if a person takes and puts salvation before endurance we know they have been mislead because the scriptures from Jesus, Paul, Peter, and Hebrews all show endurance comes first.
I just posted a passage from 1 Timothy 6 in post #363 that says by the Apostle Paul that if a person thinks godliness is means to gain we are to withdraw and not listen to such people. For we are called to be content with what we have and not desire to have more things, and it says those who desire for personal gain will be lead to destruction and perdition (eternal death).
Some have lost sight of this truth that is in the word of God and have placed other men, man made teaching systems, and self moral and customs before the Holy Spirit. The other thing I have heard from some lately is that the Holy Spirit does not speak to us directly, only in the word is how He speaks.
I know personally that is not the case because I can be out in the field working or down fishing and I will hear Him speak to me.
The Holy Spirit can not lie and we are told to test others in what they say, and that testing comes from the scriptures.
So if a person takes and puts salvation before endurance we know they have been mislead because the scriptures from Jesus, Paul, Peter, and Hebrews all show endurance comes first.
I just posted a passage from 1 Timothy 6 in post #363 that says by the Apostle Paul that if a person thinks godliness is means to gain we are to withdraw and not listen to such people. For we are called to be content with what we have and not desire to have more things, and it says those who desire for personal gain will be lead to destruction and perdition (eternal death).
S
Yes, these scriptures speak of not being in love with money, not letting money be your god. They do not say it is wrong to have money or that money is evil.
If God didn't want his children to have money there wouldn't be so many scriptures proclaiming how God will bless us with wealth. You can't get in the ditch on either side here. We as children of God are to enjoy his blessing of money but at the same time we are to love God and not money. Money is only a tool, a means to an end and that end isn't the lust of the eye, lust of the flesh, or the pride of life.
You however cannot look at a persons possessions and judge his heart. A man with an old truck can be more prideful about it than a man with a Porsche. I know a minister that you would consider in the wrong simply because of his wealth. He has a private jet. What you may not know is that he bought and gave away 12 planes over the years. He wears a Rolex. He gave away several Rolex watches that were given to him until someone had one personally engraved to him. He wears it because of the sentiment. He has a lot of nice things but they are only things. This man is in love with God and gives away things all the time. He doesn't tell anyone about it or even let it be known, so many just look at him and judge him because he has more than they.
If God didn't want his children to have money there wouldn't be so many scriptures proclaiming how God will bless us with wealth. You can't get in the ditch on either side here. We as children of God are to enjoy his blessing of money but at the same time we are to love God and not money. Money is only a tool, a means to an end and that end isn't the lust of the eye, lust of the flesh, or the pride of life.
You however cannot look at a persons possessions and judge his heart. A man with an old truck can be more prideful about it than a man with a Porsche. I know a minister that you would consider in the wrong simply because of his wealth. He has a private jet. What you may not know is that he bought and gave away 12 planes over the years. He wears a Rolex. He gave away several Rolex watches that were given to him until someone had one personally engraved to him. He wears it because of the sentiment. He has a lot of nice things but they are only things. This man is in love with God and gives away things all the time. He doesn't tell anyone about it or even let it be known, so many just look at him and judge him because he has more than they.
K
I did answer your question and I answered it by what the Word of God says, so it is just you did not like my answer most likely.
The word of God always comes first, my personal opinions have no stance to override what He says.
I have changed a lot of my out looks on life thanks be to God through His Holy Spirit, because I was raised to look down on certain people and dislike them. But when I gave myself to Christ I learned by the Spirit how to have love for all people no matter what they have done, and in that love we are to help them to come to the truth as well.
So to answer you again it is not my interpretation, it is given to me by the Holy Spirit so that their is not private interpretation....
The word of God always comes first, my personal opinions have no stance to override what He says.
I have changed a lot of my out looks on life thanks be to God through His Holy Spirit, because I was raised to look down on certain people and dislike them. But when I gave myself to Christ I learned by the Spirit how to have love for all people no matter what they have done, and in that love we are to help them to come to the truth as well.
So to answer you again it is not my interpretation, it is given to me by the Holy Spirit so that their is not private interpretation....
K
Oh my gosh !!!
I never said money was evil or that it is wrong to have money, those words have never came from me.
I have always said that what the person does with the money makes it wrong and thus becomes sinful, as one's actions are lead by their lusts of the heart if they give into them.
I also never said God does not want His children to have money, however that does not apply to all believers that they will be blessed this way. It would be wrong to say it is the persons fault why they are not financial well off, as that is a lie society puts into our minds not what the word of God says.
The wealth that God blesses some with is not for personal gain, it is so that those people can better assist and help out others in need. The word of God says that we are not to desire personal gain but be content with what we have.
You are now interjecting gifts that were given to a preacher, and that has nothing to do with one who takes money from individuals to get personal gain.
The other thing is that we are not only talking on the money these people have, as we are also touching on the doctrines of what they teach that the word says will be corrupted by financial gain (love of money). That false teaching it says will leads these people to perdition (eternal death).
Not all believers in Christ will be blessed with financial gain, and even with an example from the original Apostles some of them had good financial jobs or lives but Jesus told them to leave that and follow Him.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain."
So, of the 7.2 billion people now living, The Holy Spirit lets you know what is right for each of them... not what is right for you, specifically? They are to respond to any given situation as you feel you have been told they are to respond? Say things the way you would say them? And spend their money on what you have chosen to spend yours? Live in the same (or lesser) house as you've chosen to live in?
K
I understand poor people can disobey and not put their faith in Christ also.
The statement you made though was what a rich person does with their money does not matter (actions), and I showed ones actions does matter because they are driven by one's lustful feelings or not. If a person is operating in greed and selfishness they are not operating in the Spirit and thus do not have eternal life abiding in them.
The bad teaching of today separates the walk from the faith in Christ, but the word of God does not as it shows one's actions/works prove if they are saved or not.
The problem is you keep focusing on words such as you and I as you are focusing words that speak of self, but what I am speaking on is what the word of God says not what myself says.
It is not me but the Holy Spirit in me that guides what I say, and it is not me specifically that is the only one lead by the Spirit in this way. So you can not speak on behalf of 7.2 billion people as if they all do not speak the same way by the Spirit as I have been lead.
The Word of God has standards that believers are still and will uphold in the faith, for we are not told anywhere in the bible we can live however we want including in that sinful lifestyles. It says in the word of God those who claim to love or have faith in the Lord but continue to live sinful (lawlessness) lifestyles will not inherit eternal life.
I also never said they had to live in the same or lesser value house that I live in, but there is absolutely no need for a person to have a house that costs in the $500,000 to million dollar price range. That is excess and not needed to live !!!
God's word, not me, says we are to be content with what we have, and anybody who thinks godliness is a means for personal gain we are to withdraw from and not listen to them.
The statement you made though was what a rich person does with their money does not matter (actions), and I showed ones actions does matter because they are driven by one's lustful feelings or not. If a person is operating in greed and selfishness they are not operating in the Spirit and thus do not have eternal life abiding in them.
The bad teaching of today separates the walk from the faith in Christ, but the word of God does not as it shows one's actions/works prove if they are saved or not.
The problem is you keep focusing on words such as you and I as you are focusing words that speak of self, but what I am speaking on is what the word of God says not what myself says.
It is not me but the Holy Spirit in me that guides what I say, and it is not me specifically that is the only one lead by the Spirit in this way. So you can not speak on behalf of 7.2 billion people as if they all do not speak the same way by the Spirit as I have been lead.
The Word of God has standards that believers are still and will uphold in the faith, for we are not told anywhere in the bible we can live however we want including in that sinful lifestyles. It says in the word of God those who claim to love or have faith in the Lord but continue to live sinful (lawlessness) lifestyles will not inherit eternal life.
I also never said they had to live in the same or lesser value house that I live in, but there is absolutely no need for a person to have a house that costs in the $500,000 to million dollar price range. That is excess and not needed to live !!!
God's word, not me, says we are to be content with what we have, and anybody who thinks godliness is a means for personal gain we are to withdraw from and not listen to them.
I think this is a fallacious line of thinking. Of course the Spirit didn't tell him how and what is right for everyone that's ridiculous. What Jesus did tell us to do is watch out for false profits Mat 7:15-16 15"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16"You will know them by their fruits. So when I, using my rational mind, the word, and the Holy Spirit take look at what these men teach, how the act, and the [FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]choices[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] they make, as a whole then I can make a judgement if they are truly living the life Jesus called ALL OF US to live. When I look at all these things, especially their teachings in my opinion, I can make the judgement that they are not following the Christ of the New Testament. It's not as complex or "judgmental" as you are making it out to be. I can ask myself 1 question, "do I think Jesus would approve of, in light of all the people starving today, a "man of God" needing a 10 million dollar house and the answer is NO I don't. Justify it in your head how ever you want, but what these men teach is not the gospel of the Jesus Christ of the bible, nor of the early Christians that were selling EVERYTHING they owned to help the Kingdom of Christ. I just can not see how you don't see what these men do as unchristian, then you have the audacity to rebuke someone for calling them out on it. If you have "no right" to judge these multi million dollar pastors for living against Jesus teachings, what in the world gives you the right to judge the people calling them out on it? Sometimes I wonder man.[/FONT]
The way you answer the questions here IS your private interpretation of what you FEEL the Holy Spirit is saying to you. The same is true of every other poster here. I believe that it is time for you to stop correcting everyone who responds to you and listen to what the Holy Spirit is telling you through them. God's word speaks to each of us from personal reading and experience, and from the teaching and experiences of others. Take the time to listen without correcting, you will find that the Holy Spirit speaks to you through others around you.
K
Sorry but I do not have to listen to the Holy Spirit through others because He is in me and talks to me directly and guides me in His word.
Making a statement that I need to listen to the Holy Spirit through others, is pretty much the same as trying to say I don't have the Holy Spirit even though you don't come right out and say it.
I again put God first and by His Holy Spirit I receive the truth He gives me, I do not go to other people first unless He directs me there to go to them. Also yes the word of God does say we are to reprove and rebuke others when they are in a mislead teaching of the word. So if the Holy Spirit tells me to correct a person but you tell me not to, I will continue to listen to the Holy Spirit.
I offer what the pure word of God says and that is not liked by some now days because the doctrines that exist now days has corrupted those teachings in the scriptures and blinded some. They think just because they are in the majority of same thinking they are right, but the falling away spoken of in scripture is about less truth of the word being taught in the churches.
Making a statement that I need to listen to the Holy Spirit through others, is pretty much the same as trying to say I don't have the Holy Spirit even though you don't come right out and say it.
I again put God first and by His Holy Spirit I receive the truth He gives me, I do not go to other people first unless He directs me there to go to them. Also yes the word of God does say we are to reprove and rebuke others when they are in a mislead teaching of the word. So if the Holy Spirit tells me to correct a person but you tell me not to, I will continue to listen to the Holy Spirit.
I offer what the pure word of God says and that is not liked by some now days because the doctrines that exist now days has corrupted those teachings in the scriptures and blinded some. They think just because they are in the majority of same thinking they are right, but the falling away spoken of in scripture is about less truth of the word being taught in the churches.
K
Yes exactly we will know them by their fruits, but some for one reason or another want to overlook that saying by the Lord and tell others we can not tell by their actions if what they are doing is in line with the word of God or not.
The fruits of the Spirit will guide our actions which will show out to others if one is saved or not.
The bible does have a set of standards in the new covenant that it shows believers in Christ will uphold, even if some do not want to admit that they are still there none the less. There is a bad teaching that Jesus fulfilled all at the cross and we do not have to do nothing.
Lord Jesus Himself showed walking in love upholds and fulfills the law, and Apostle Paul confirms this in Romans 13:9-11.
T
From my point of view
1. Being rich does not always mean i got my wealth from the people i lead.
2. Yes its possible that a person can enter ministry for financial gain.
3. Paul preached what he did, he was the evidence of what God was capable of.
4. Pastors and preachers are not exempt from being rich.
5. I would not want to listen to preacher who always preaches poverty to me. When a pastor preaches
6. There is nothing wrong with motivating each other using biblical principles
7. When you do the work of God, He blesses you. When you obey, He blesses you. If i am a pastor, i must not be afraid to purchase a mansion or a jet because people will ask a lot of questions
1. Being rich does not always mean i got my wealth from the people i lead.
2. Yes its possible that a person can enter ministry for financial gain.
3. Paul preached what he did, he was the evidence of what God was capable of.
4. Pastors and preachers are not exempt from being rich.
5. I would not want to listen to preacher who always preaches poverty to me. When a pastor preaches
6. There is nothing wrong with motivating each other using biblical principles
7. When you do the work of God, He blesses you. When you obey, He blesses you. If i am a pastor, i must not be afraid to purchase a mansion or a jet because people will ask a lot of questions