the cost of free will

[posthuman]

our sister was explaining to me last night how that sin, and suffering, and evil in the world are the result of mankind's agency to choose to turn away from God, toward wickedness instead of righteousness, loving darkness rather than light. how tremendous the cost is of what we call "free will" and are so proud to have.

the Lord paid for this with His own Son's blood.
that 'simple' ability to choose between the wrong and the right, and the necessary consequences of it.
He knew exactly what we cost to have been created and to be loved, and He still paid.

i thought you all might like to talk about this

 

[Magenta]

.
God demonstrates his own love for us in this:
While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[oldthennew]

a good subject, Post.

the first example of 'free-will' is Adam and Eve...NT, the Pharisees, even though they see the miraculous
signs and wonders of Christ in the flesh, they deny it and even say that He has a devil....

Pharaoh, he sees wonder after wonder from God and his magicians even tell him, 'enough is enough,
this is the finger of God' - yet, he will not heed their warning...he keeps getting worse and worse
because his conscience is seared, and this is true in many people today, as their negative characteristics
grow worse and worse as they age....or else, you see stagnation-stubbornness-self-will-bitterness.....

the lesson that we have gleaned is that once you compromise and step into sin, this opens the door to step
into greater sin...and, we must avoid this at all costs....
like it is written,

'Hold fast that which is good' and it is written again, 'Resist the evil' and again,
REV.3:11.
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

 

[psychomom]

since i was born dead (spiritually) with absolutely no ability to do anything pleasing to God,
i am blown away to have been chosen to be adopted by the Most High, my sins forgiven in Christ.

In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 Jn 4:10)

completely blown away.

 

[valiant]

since i was born dead (spiritually) with absolutely no ability to do anything pleasing to God,
i am blown away to have been chosen to be adopted by the Most High, my sins forgiven in Christ.

In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 Jn 4:10)

completely blown away.

Yes you are quite right. Free will is a much over-rated idea. The majority of people rarely, if ever, exercise free-will. They make their 'choices' on the basis of background, upbringing, prejudice, self-aims, mind-set and convenience. Men do not 'choose' to sin. Or to be more accurate they choose to sin because because that is their makeup. But it is not a free-will choice. They sin because of what they are. And the level of their sin is a consequence of what they have made themselves into. That is why the behaviour of most men can be predicted by anyone who knows their background and upbringing.

It is only when Christ steps in and works in a person's life by His Spirit, causing him to choose the right that 'freewill' comes into play. It is only the power of God that can release men from the bondage of the will. Thank God that in His mercy He does choose some, so that through Christ and what He has done for us, and is doing for us, we can be delivered from, the penalty, power, and one day even the presence of sin. Without His interference we would simply continue on in the old ways of sin.

 

[nowyouseem033]

More like the lost of free will, rather the cost of free will.

Free will lost in the fall, and self will became ruler over us all.

btw the term is what Jonathan Edwards a Puritan preacher used and I quote, "we aren't sinners because we CHOOSE to sin, but rather, we CHOOSE to sin because we ARE SINNERS"

essentially you don't choose to become a sinner.. lol, you are a sinner from day one. We aren't free to turn to God, we are free to only do one thing and that's sin. and the Word of God doesn't say we are free to do whatever, but rather we are slaves to sin. If your a slave to sin how are you free??? If you love darkness how will you love God??? If you are spiritually dead to God how will you ever come to know him???

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Romans 8:5-8
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 5:12-21
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Romans 8:12-17
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 

[FreeNChrist]

our sister was explaining to me last night how that sin, and suffering, and evil in the world are the result of mankind's agency to choose to turn away from God, toward wickedness instead of righteousness, loving darkness rather than light. how tremendous the cost is of what we call "free will" and are so proud to have.

the Lord paid for this with His own Son's blood.
that 'simple' ability to choose between the wrong and the right, and the necessary consequences of it.
He knew exactly what we cost to have been created and to be loved, and He still paid.

i thought you all might like to talk about this

God desires a genuine love relationship with us. For that to happen there must be the freedom to choose. Love cannot be forced or coerced. Love is either freely given and freely received or it is not love.

 

[posthuman]

God desires a genuine love relationship with us. For that to happen there must be the freedom to choose. Love cannot be forced or coerced. Love is either freely given and freely received or it is not love.

i wonder, is hatred under the same constraints?
why or why not?

 

[p_rehbein]

The terrible price for the remission of sin is as God ordained from the beginning.

The ability of man to choose to love and serve God is surely a gift. It is exercising the gift of faith spoken of in Ephesians......."saved by Grace through faith........"

We are not robots hardwired to one destiny or the other.

(my thoughts)

 

[posthuman]

God desires a genuine love relationship with us. For that to happen there must be the freedom to choose. Love cannot be forced or coerced. Love is either freely given and freely received or it is not love.

what you've said is the way i've almost always heard "free will" described and framed -- that it's necessary for love to be genuine. i don't want to debate about that, but i wanted to look at a facet of this, that my friend was talking about yesterday.

that freedom is freedom also to not love.
if you had an animal that you knew would bite you as soon as you let it out of its cage - even maul and kill you, would you set it free, for the love of it?
or a loved one who you knew would hurt themselves if unconstrained, would you give them space and opportunity, for the sake of their having freedom?

we are able as humans to make wrong 'choices,' that destroy our lives and harm others.
He came, knowing that we would crucify Him.

in a certain sense, is the existence of evil showing how much He loves us? how special we are to Him?

 

[shotgunner]

i wonder, is hatred under the same constraints?
why or why not?

Matthew 6:24King James Version (KJV)[SUP]24 [/SUP]No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

When I read your question this verse came to mind. I had never thought of it in this manner before but perhaps what Jesus is saying is that hate is the absence of love.

 

[posthuman]

Free will lost in the fall, and self will became ruler over us all.

that's an interesting thought -- Adam & Eve free to choose, to choose to effectively give up their will to the law of sin.

Christ making us free from this, freely choosing us so that we can freely choose His ways.

 

[posthuman]

Romans 8:5-8
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 5:12-21
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Romans 8:12-17
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

yes!

we were studying Romans 8 in fact when my friend, our sister, brought this up
although we've only made it to verse 11 so far. our little group doesn't move too quickly; it's taken 2 years to get this far from Romans 1:1 !
*spoilers* ha-ha!

 

[shotgunner]

Here is another thought concerning the Love God has toward us. God being the perfect father took responsibility even for his children's wrong. He basically said. "This is my mess, I'll clean it up since I'm the only one who can." I don't doubt that this decision was made before man was ever created, since Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

 

[FreeNChrist]

i wonder, is hatred under the same constraints?
why or why not?

It's not a constraint.

 

[FreeNChrist]

what you've said is the way i've almost always heard "free will" described and framed -- that it's necessary for love to be genuine. i don't want to debate about that, but i wanted to look at a facet of this, that my friend was talking about yesterday.

that freedom is freedom also to not love.
if you had an animal that you knew would bite you as soon as you let it out of its cage - even maul and kill you, would you set it free, for the love of it?
or a loved one who you knew would hurt themselves if unconstrained, would you give them space and opportunity, for the sake of their having freedom?

we are able as humans to make wrong 'choices,' that destroy our lives and harm others.
He came, knowing that we would crucify Him.

in a certain sense, is the existence of evil showing how much He loves us? how special we are to Him?

Indeed. Inclusive in the freedom to choose is the possibility of choosing wrongly.

 

[posthuman]

It's not a constraint.

sure it is.

we're solving:

X = affection​

subject to

X ≠ coerced
​

where an optimal solution for X must be a member of the set {having freedom to choose}.

the constraint we're imposing is that X must be unconstrained.

((sorry, i don't think we've met -- you'll find i interject math everywhere ))

 

[FreeNChrist]

sure it is.

we're solving:

X = affection​

subject to

X ≠ coerced
​

where an optimal solution for X must be a member of the set {having freedom to choose}.

the constraint we're imposing is that X must be unconstrained.

((sorry, i don't think we've met -- you'll find i interject math everywhere ))

I hate math. The freedom of having genuine choice is not the constrainer, creation is. We have freedom to choose, but only from the choices available to us within the framework in which we exist.

 

[posthuman]

The freedom of having genuine choice is not the constrainer, creation is. We have freedom to choose, but only from the choices available to us within the framework in which we exist.

that makes the 'the framework in which we exist' a set of constraints.

before we knew Him, we were greatly constrained!
not only could we not please Him, (Romans 8:7-8), but we couldn't even understand Him (2 Corinthians 2:12-16) and we were held in slavery to sin & all kinds of lusts (Romans 6:20, John 8:34).

but being made free, the flesh is condemned - for what it chose of it's so-called 'free will' -- and we, being alive through the Spirit, are made in Him able to stand, and to be truly 'free' - even so, we exist in a new framework - the framework of Christ, through the Spirit, and are 'constrained' as slaves to righteousness, though not in the same way as we were willingly to sin, but voluntarily after Him, our hearts unconstrained by what was before, and constrained by His own faithfulness towards us, making us new.

I hate math.

that's a shame, but very common. i'm a mathematician.

grace and peace be multiplied to you!