The Rapture

KennethC · Aug 27, 2015

Yes I did address what you said as Revelation 19 does not prove a pre-trib rapture.

Verses 5-10 is the rapture(gathering) and the marriage supper of the Lord...............

Verses 11 is the Bema seat of Christ and the start of Armageddon............

Verses 12-15 is Armageddon.............

Verse 15 is also speaking of the Millennial reign of Christ.........(And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron)

Verse 17-21 is speaking on God's wrath..............

crossnote said:

It does refer to the rapture(gathering) but it shows clearly in verse 15 this is the second coming of the Lord, so it does not prove a pre-trib rapture still.

The Great Tribulation is the man of sin appointed time to persecute and kill Jews and Christians, it is not God's wrath as that takes place at the end of the GT. In order for pre-trib to work there would have to be a scripture that supports believers will not face the persecution on earth, there is none !!! Pre-trib says we escape persecution, Lord Jesus says we will not.
Who are you going to believe ???

Even Lord Jesus said;

John 15:20
Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord. If they have persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept My saying, they will keep yours also.

KennethC · Aug 27, 2015

You are right He acts before and not after, the problem is that He calls us to Him (gathering/rapture) before His wrath is poured out not before tribulation.

No scripture in the bible says believers will escape the persecution from the man of sin.
They say we are not appointed to God's wrath that is poured out at the end of the Great Tribulation, not during !!!

Again the bible says the man of sin is given 1,260 days to carry out his agenda, but in the book of Daniel it mentions 1,290 and 1,335 days. Why, because those extra 30 and then following 45 days is for Armageddon and God's wrath.

popeye said:

Is · Aug 27, 2015

Willie-T said:

One tiny verse of what? And how interesting that Matt.24:29 corresponds with Rev.6:12,13 and Matt.24:32 with Rev.6:13 where a fig tree casteth her untimely figs. This isn't just a mere coincidence.

KennethC · Aug 27, 2015

Is said:

Yes but pay very close attention to Matthew 24:29 for it says, "Immediately after the tribulation"..........

AVoiceintheWilderness · Aug 27, 2015

Popeye, I have to confess. After looking back over those scriptures in Matt. 24:31 and Mark 13:27, I believe we may both be right. It does appear possible that it is speaking of 'heaven' as we think of it and the 'sky' AND the earth.

It could be referring to those saints who died or were martyred 'during' the Tribulation period.

If we look at Revelations 6:9-11, we see this:
[SUP]9[/SUP]And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[SUP]10[/SUP]And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
[SUP]11[/SUP]And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

REVELATION CHAPTER 6

Pre-Trib declares that the time of the Tribulation, the time of the SEALS, is God's Wrath.

This not only shows saints in 'Heaven,' having been killed during the time of the SEALS, but also shows that during the FIFTH SEAL, God's Wrath has NOT begun yet AND that the Tribulation HAS begun. God tells those saints who died violently for their faith, their testimony and their refusal to follow the Antichrist, that they must rest a little longer until the remainder of those who will die like they did have arrived in heaven.

This is a HUGE blow to the Pre-Trib school of thinking due to its scriptural proof of all these points.

1. Proves that the SEALS are NOT God's Wrath.
2. Proves, contrary to the Pre-Trib's greatest declaration, that the SEALS are the Great Tribulation of the Antichrist and that these, who have been killed and are in heaven, are the 'elect.'

How can this follow Pre-Trib doctrine if the 'elect' are being killed during the time of the SEALS? It is a HUGE, gaping hole in Pre-Trib theory.

And, yet, it's right there in the Bible for all to see.

God will NEVER bring His Wrath upon those who love Him and follow Him fervently. Upon that we can agree. Where things get convoluted is when Pre-Trib theory claims that the Tribulation is the Wrath of God. It is not.

erikanutella · Aug 27, 2015

Josefnospam said:

Do you Read the Bible? before you conclude that there is no such RAPTURE state your reasons and evidence.

for me there is a RAPTURE why i said so?
in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 “Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.” The Greek word for “caught up” is “harpazō” and means “to seize, to carry off by force” or “to snatch away.”

in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 “Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.” Paul was trying to uncover this mystery that had been hidden and that is that not every one of us will be at sleep at Christ’s return. Paul is not talking about a soul sleep but if you read the context of this chapter and the use of the word “sleep” it obviously means those who have died. Paul is telling the church that not every one of us will be sleeping (or dead) when Christ returns but we will be changed instantaneously or in the twinkling of an eye. The dead will rise first and then those of us who are alive at Christ’s return will be changed and we'll all put on immortality.

and How can you explain about what happened to ENOCH? in Hebrews 11:5 ESV "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God".

---------

"Enoch was the son of Jared (Genesis 5:19–21), the father of Methuselah, and the great-grandfather of Noah. The Bible says that Enoch lived 365 years before he was taken by God, which is a small amount of time compared to his offspring Methuselah, who lived to be 969 years old. The text reads that Enoch "walked with God: and he was no more; for God took him" (Gen 5:21–24). This Enoch is not to be confused with Cain's son Enoch (Genesis 4:17). The Christian New Testament has three references to Enoch from the lineage of Seth (Luke 3:37, Hebrews 11:5, Jude 1:14–15). " ~ via Wikipedia
whether Rapture or Physical Death .. believe it or not .. Jesus is coming very soon
Let's continue to work in His vineyard and Bear Good Fruits

God Bless You

Is · Aug 27, 2015

KennethC said:

Meaning what?

KennethC · Aug 27, 2015

Is said:

Showing that event of Matthew 24:29 is after the tribulation and not before it, as Matthew 24:21 shows the start of the great tribulation and verse 29 is referring to after that has taken place.

Is · Aug 27, 2015

KennethC said:

Don't see how you come up with that v.21 shows the start. Jesus is only saying that that there will be a great tribulation that has never happened in the world and giving a rundown on what will come. It's got to be initiated by the "abomination of desolation" referred to in Daniel.

In v.8 Jesus said there will be the "beginning of sorrows" and from looking at v.7 I believe that has been happening for a long time.

Ahwatukee · Aug 27, 2015

Greetings Tanach,

I would have to disagree with you in that, Jesus (The Lamb) is the One opening the seals and therefore, he is the One who is initiating the plagues of wrath. The first seal rider on the white horse is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse in Rev.19:11 which is the Lord returning to the earth to end the age. The rider on the white horse of the first seal is that antichrist. At the 6th seal when the announcement is made that the great day of their wrath has come and who can stand, this announcement also includes the events that will have previously take place via the seals where a fourth of the earth's population will be killed. The bottom line is that, Jesus is the One opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets and bowl judgments, ergo, he is responsible for the wrath that is being pour out upon the earth.

You said:
" Also if the Church had been raptured before the seven years commenced who are those who are martyred for the testimony of Jesus."

Scripture does not reveal the identity of who those souls who are under the altar, but remember, there will people who will become believers after the church has been removed. Furthermore, there is nothing in the scripture that would identify this group as being the church. They could be the souls of those who have been killed from the onset of the church through the last 2000 years for all we know. The other point that I made is that, we do not find the word church anywhere after the end of chapter 3. Though the believe in Christ, I do not believe that the saints who come out of the great tribulation belong to the church. I believe that the church period ends when the resurrection and catching away takes place. Those saints who come out of the great tribulation are not apart of the church because they will not have been ready when he appears, but are a completely different group of believers. This is why Jesus tells the believers within the church to always be watching and reading for his appearing.

To recap, Jesus is the One opening the seals where a fourth of the earth's population is killed, which would be the wrath of God. And since believers are not appointed to suffer wrath, then we cannot be here to suffer through those plagues.

I would also point out that there is no mention of a resurrection or catching away at the 6th seal and there is no mention of Jesus returning to the earth at that time.

Ahwatukee · Aug 27, 2015

Greetings carolb,

Really? A black woman made it up? Hmmm ..... did she write 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-53 and many of the other scriptures that refer to the Lord's appearing? My information comes from scripture, not other people. If we put aside the controversy of when this event is going to take place, we can at least be in agreement that it is going to happen:

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

Regarding the scripture above, let's break it down:

* The Lord himself will come down from heaven
* The dead in Christ will rise first
* After the dead rise, then those who are still alive will be "caught up" in the clouds where the whole group meets the Lord in the air.

Since the scripture above was written by Paul, how is it that a black woman made it up? The context of the scripture supports the church being "caught up" and meeting the Lord in the air. On the contrary, not believing and watching for his appearing is Satan's way of fooling people, because anyone who is not ready and anticipating his coming will not be going. The words "caught up" are translated from the word "Harpazo" which is defined properly as to, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively, force suddenly exercised. It is the same word used when Paul was "caught up" to the third heaven. It is the same word used regarding the male child of Rev.12:5 who is "snatched up" to God's throne. The other words of the context in 1 Thes.4:16 "clouds" and "Air" support where believers are being caught up to.

As previously stated the resurrection and catching away of the dead and the living is a completely separate event from Christ's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

popeye · Aug 27, 2015

ladylynn said:

I think someone is pulling someone's leg

Is · Aug 27, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

Greetings Tanach,

I would have to disagree with you in that, Jesus (The Lamb) is the One opening the seals and therefore, he is the One who is initiating the plagues of wrath. The first seal rider on the white horse is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse in Rev.19:11 which is the Lord returning to the earth to end the age. The rider on the white horse of the first seal is that antichrist. At the 6th seal when the announcement is made that the great day of their wrath has come and who can stand, this announcement also includes the events that will have previously take place via the seals where a fourth of the earth's population will be killed. The bottom line is that, Jesus is the One opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets and bowl judgments, ergo, he is responsible for the wrath that is being pour out upon the earth.

You said:
" Also if the Church had been raptured before the seven years commenced who are those who are martyred for the testimony of Jesus."

Scripture does not reveal the identity of who those souls who are under the altar, but remember, there will people who will become believers after the church has been removed. Furthermore, there is nothing in the scripture that would identify this group as being the church. They could be the souls of those who have been killed from the onset of the church through the last 2000 years for all we know. The other point that I made is that, we do not find the word church anywhere after the end of chapter 3. Though the believe in Christ, I do not believe that the saints who come out of the great tribulation belong to the church. I believe that the church period ends when the resurrection and catching away takes place. Those saints who come out of the great tribulation are not apart of the church because they will not have been ready when he appears, but are a completely different group of believers. This is why Jesus tells the believers within the church to always be watching and reading for his appearing.

To recap, Jesus is the One opening the seals where a fourth of the earth's population is killed, which would be the wrath of God. And since believers are not appointed to suffer wrath, then we cannot be here to suffer through those plagues.

I would also point out that there is no mention of a resurrection or catching away at the 6th seal and there is no mention of Jesus returning to the earth at that time.

"And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, The root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof." Rev.5:4,5

popeye · Aug 27, 2015

AVoiceintheWilderness said:

Popeye, I have to confess. After looking back over those scriptures in Matt. 24:31 and Mark 13:27, I believe we may both be right. It does appear possible that it is speaking of 'heaven' as we think of it and the 'sky' AND the earth.

It could be referring to those saints who died or were martyred 'during' the Tribulation period.

If we look at Revelations 6:9-11, we see this:
[SUP]9[/SUP]And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[SUP]10[/SUP]And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
[SUP]11[/SUP]And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

REVELATION CHAPTER 6

Pre-Trib declares that the time of the Tribulation, the time of the SEALS, is God's Wrath.

This not only shows saints in 'Heaven,' having been killed during the time of the SEALS, but also shows that during the FIFTH SEAL, God's Wrath has NOT begun yet AND that the Tribulation HAS begun. God tells those saints who died violently for their faith, their testimony and their refusal to follow the Antichrist, that they must rest a little longer until the remainder of those who will die like they did have arrived in heaven.

This is a HUGE blow to the Pre-Trib school of thinking due to its scriptural proof of all these points.

1. Proves that the SEALS are NOT God's Wrath.
2. Proves, contrary to the Pre-Trib's greatest declaration, that the SEALS are the Great Tribulation of the Antichrist and that these, who have been killed and are in heaven, are the 'elect.'

How can this follow Pre-Trib doctrine if the 'elect' are being killed during the time of the SEALS? It is a HUGE, gaping hole in Pre-Trib theory.

And, yet, it's right there in the Bible for all to see.

God will NEVER bring His Wrath upon those who love Him and follow Him fervently. Upon that we can agree. Where things get convoluted is when Pre-Trib theory claims that the Tribulation is the Wrath of God. It is not.

I have never needed the wrath,trib dimension to defend pretrib. I feel that argument is a flyspeck.it is mid tribe and postribs that bring it up.
The 7yr GT is brought in 2phases,with the 2nd more intense.
How anyone CAN look at the 4horsemen as non judgement from heaven is beyond me

KennethC · Aug 27, 2015

Is said:

Matthew 24:15 is speaking on the Abomination of Desolation and telling the Jews to flee...........

And then;

Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

And then;

Matthew 24:29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

pottersclay · Aug 27, 2015

I believe in the rapture,it fits in well with end time events. I believed in it before the left behind series was out. Paul hints to it, the old testament has hints to it. In the book of revelation there is a song that is sung that only the redeemed in Christ could sing before the trumpet blasts.
How it will be explained away is when the chaos starts. With no church and holy spirit on earth Satan will have his time in the sun for a season. Don't be so sure of what you state is true, and I don't find it edifying to shun hope to those who do believe in the rapture. It's not a salvation issue that needs correction. I have learned to agree to disagree on this subject. So all I'm saying is let those who believe in what seems to be foolish be foolish.
I've seen these threads go nowhere so I'll let it be.
Peace to you and yours from our Lord Christ Jesus.

Is · Aug 28, 2015

KennethC said:

So if Matt 24:29 is immediately after the tribulation and Matt.30 says what will be seen is the sign of the Son of man in the sky, do you consider that to be the Second Coming?

popeye · Aug 28, 2015

pottersclay said:

I believe in the rapture,it fits in well with end time events. I believed in it before the left behind series was out. Paul hints to it, the old testament has hints to it. In the book of revelation there is a song that is sung that only the redeemed in Christ could sing before the trumpet blasts.
How it will be explained away is when the chaos starts. With no church and holy spirit on earth Satan will have his time in the sun for a season. Don't be so sure of what you state is true, and I don't find it edifying to shun hope to those who do believe in the rapture. It's not a salvation issue that needs correction. I have learned to agree to disagree on this subject. So all I'm saying is let those who believe in what seems to be foolish be foolish.
I've seen these threads go nowhere so I'll let it be.
Peace to you and yours from our Lord Christ Jesus.

I somewhat agree.
The debate can be championed through systematic exegesis.
I force myself and my detractors to either agree or disagree with the word

popeye · Aug 28, 2015

Is said:

When you see someone obsessed over the trib/wrath dimension they are prob what we used to call mid trib

Willie-T · Aug 28, 2015

popeye said:

The only trouble is...... It ALWAYS comes down to "agreeing with the word", as WHO? interprets it.

The Word can only be interpreted ONE way.... and that way is OUR OWN way, not the other guy's.

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