The Rapture
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R
I very much appreciate your posts here on the subject of the rapture. I am in agreement with you and it is very clear in the Bible as far as I'm concerned too.
Especially since we know and are secure in the fact that there is no more judgment for the believer. It was taken care of on the cross. Also, was just listening to a message on the way to work tonight and it's important in the understanding of the scriptures that:
All the Bible is written "for" us..... But not all the Bible is written "to" us.
Some portions of scripture are to the Jews., and we also benefit from that but certain promises and warnings are strictly to the Jews. And certain verses are written for us the church. For instance the vs about let not your plight be on the Sabbath... that is to the Jews since they are the ones who follow the Sabbath. The church does not 'do' the Sabbath, we do Sunday.
Just a tiny example.
Another example i just remembered,...when that vs about "Judgment must begin in the house of God." That is also speaking to the Jews since Jesus already took our judgement. When Jesus got the money changers out of the temple He said "make not my Father's house a place of merchandise or something to that effect., don't have my Bible here at work. or did He say "a den of thieves" ?? Either way, the idea is clear.
Especially since we know and are secure in the fact that there is no more judgment for the believer. It was taken care of on the cross. Also, was just listening to a message on the way to work tonight and it's important in the understanding of the scriptures that:
All the Bible is written "for" us..... But not all the Bible is written "to" us.
Some portions of scripture are to the Jews., and we also benefit from that but certain promises and warnings are strictly to the Jews. And certain verses are written for us the church. For instance the vs about let not your plight be on the Sabbath... that is to the Jews since they are the ones who follow the Sabbath. The church does not 'do' the Sabbath, we do Sunday.
Just a tiny example. Another example i just remembered,...when that vs about "Judgment must begin in the house of God." That is also speaking to the Jews since Jesus already took our judgement. When Jesus got the money changers out of the temple He said "make not my Father's house a place of merchandise or something to that effect., don't have my Bible here at work. or did He say "a den of thieves" ?? Either way, the idea is clear.
(Robin)
It was an informative article, wasn't it ... I've been working on the two Thessalonian epistles for some time now, and still learned a couple new things. I tracked it back, and went to the home site, and found that there are a number of other articles there, not much else, in the way of advocating an organization/church, so I found it rather user friendly.
Anyway, I've also noted a few points in this, your above posting, that I'm in line with ... so I've no idea how we could ever get along with each other on this site, seeing as how there doesn't appear to be many things that we could argue about ... argue about and hurt each other's feeling over ... what fun it that, being agreeable? You'd best do any future posting with Willie_T
he'll set you straight! Wonder what the "T" stands for ... T Rex?
A
Just a loving reminder to my fellow believers whom I'm very pleased to be able to interact with. There are not very many places in the world today where true believers and those with a sincere heart for truth can gather and trade notes about our various levels of understanding. Ironically, as God uses all things for the good of those who love Him, we are able to use an invention that was likely created far more for evil than for good. I love how God works.
We should try hard to remember that we must be vigilant about getting along, especially with other believers. The enemy is ALWAYS striving to come between people, especially those who have ANY interest in God at all.
We sure can't interact with true believers in very many churches that I'm aware of, for sadly most of those people don't want truth, they want tradition and the approval of others (mankind).
I am far from perfect, but I am thrilled to be able to share my passion with others of like minds here. Let's strive to support eachother and patiently teach others who may or may not see things the way we do. (2 Tim 2:23-25) Hopefully we can all agree we love God and truly want to know all we can about His Word.
Popeye, in Matthew 24, the only scripture I can find that I believe you're referring to is that verse 31.
Matt. 24:31
"And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
There is also Mark 13:27
"And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
Remember in Genesis 1:9: "God said, "Let the waters under the heaven(KJV)(heavens in other translations)be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so."
In Matt. 24:35:"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
There are many other verses that refer to heaven/heavens in a way that sounds much more like heaven as we think of it, but I believe in Matt 24:31 we can infer through parallel scriptures that it is a reference to the 'sky' in general.
Especially in light of 1 Thess. 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the lord.
We should try hard to remember that we must be vigilant about getting along, especially with other believers. The enemy is ALWAYS striving to come between people, especially those who have ANY interest in God at all.
We sure can't interact with true believers in very many churches that I'm aware of, for sadly most of those people don't want truth, they want tradition and the approval of others (mankind).
I am far from perfect, but I am thrilled to be able to share my passion with others of like minds here. Let's strive to support eachother and patiently teach others who may or may not see things the way we do. (2 Tim 2:23-25) Hopefully we can all agree we love God and truly want to know all we can about His Word.
Popeye, in Matthew 24, the only scripture I can find that I believe you're referring to is that verse 31.
Matt. 24:31
"And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
There is also Mark 13:27
"And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
Remember in Genesis 1:9: "God said, "Let the waters under the heaven(KJV)(heavens in other translations)be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so."
In Matt. 24:35:"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
There are many other verses that refer to heaven/heavens in a way that sounds much more like heaven as we think of it, but I believe in Matt 24:31 we can infer through parallel scriptures that it is a reference to the 'sky' in general.
Especially in light of 1 Thess. 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the lord.
Greetings peacefulbeliever,
Yes you are correct, scripture is perfectly clear that there is coming a time of great distress such as the world has not seen, from the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again, followed by Christ visually returning to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. Daniel 12:1 refers to he same time period. Furthermore, regarding that time of great distress, Jesus said that if those days had not been shortened no one on earth would be left alive. Therefore, it is definitely a specific time period.
This time of great distress/tribulation will take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which are the wrath of God with Jesus returning to end the age sometime after the 7th bowl has been poured out. The reason that there is so much controversy regarding this issue is because expositors erroneously make the resurrection and catching away synonymous with the Lord's return to the earth when he ends the age and establishes his millennial kingdom, yet these are two very separate events.
Resurrection and catching away:
This event is when the Lord descends from heaven to resurrect the dead and change and catch up the living before God begins to pour out his wrath upon the earth. Scripture is clear that we as believers are not appointed to suffer wrath. Another error that expositors make is not recognizing the difference between common persecution and the wrath of God, also known as the day of the Lord. Common persecution comes at the hands of mankind with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the spiritual background. Where the wrath of God is God directly and deliberately pouring out his wrath upon mankind. The day of the Lord that was prophesied in part by the prophet's of old is listed in detail in the book of revelation in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and will be removed prior to these events. The following is just one of many examples that the resurrection and catching away will take place prior to when Christ returns to the earth to end the age:
"I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean."
Who are these riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean?
Some claim that they are angels, but they would be wrong. Though angels will be present as well when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, these on white horses wearing white linen are not angels. We are told who they are in a couple of different scriptures. Rev.17:12-14 below is a preview of Rev.19:14.
"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
Those called, chosen and faithful followers of Rev.17:14-15 are the very same riders on white horses dressed in fine linen white and clean described in Rev.19:14. It is clear that called, chosen and faithful followers is not a designation for angelic beings, but of the redeemed. Therefore, those who are following Christ out of heaven when he ends the age, will be those of whom the Lord will have previously resurrected and caught up prior to the beginning of God's wrath.
Another scriptural clue as to who these are on white horses and who are wearing white clothing is found in Rev.19:6-8.
"I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:“Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”
Notice that in the Scripture above that it states that "his bride has made herself ready." According to Scripture, we know that the bride is a designation of the church. Notice also that it is the bride/church that is being given fine linen, bright and clean to wear. This is the same clothing mentioned that those riders on the white horses are wearing, ergo, the church of Christ are those who are riding on white horses and are wearing the fine linen, white and clean and are following Christ out of heaven.
For those who believe that the resurrection and catching away is synonymous with Rev.20:4, I would point out that there is only a resurrection mentioned here and no living believers are mentioned as being changed and caught up. This group in Rev.20:4 are apart of the first resurrection, they being those who will have been beheaded because during that time they will keep the testimony of Christ and the word of God and they will not have worshiped the beast, his image and will have not received his mark on their hands or foreheads. This would demonstrate that this group are not people from different times in history, but will be those great tribulation saints who will be exposed to the time period of the beast and his kingdom. This group will be Gentile's who will have become believers after the church has been removed from the earth and will be exposed to everything that is taking place on earth during that time, including God's wrath and everything taking place with the beast and the false prophet.
Another proof that the church will be removed prior to the time of God's wrath is that, from chapters 1 thru the very end of chapter 3, the word Ekklesia translated "Church" is mentioned over 20 times, but you will not find the word "Hagios" translated "Saints." Likewise, from chapter 4 on, only the word Hagios/saints is listed and you never see the word Ekklesia/church mentioned within the narrative. It is not until outside of the narrative that we see the word church appear in Rev.22:16. This demonstrates that the church is not present on earth during the time when the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are taking place, which is the wrath of God.
Blessings in Chist
Yes you are correct, scripture is perfectly clear that there is coming a time of great distress such as the world has not seen, from the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again, followed by Christ visually returning to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. Daniel 12:1 refers to he same time period. Furthermore, regarding that time of great distress, Jesus said that if those days had not been shortened no one on earth would be left alive. Therefore, it is definitely a specific time period.
This time of great distress/tribulation will take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which are the wrath of God with Jesus returning to end the age sometime after the 7th bowl has been poured out. The reason that there is so much controversy regarding this issue is because expositors erroneously make the resurrection and catching away synonymous with the Lord's return to the earth when he ends the age and establishes his millennial kingdom, yet these are two very separate events.
Resurrection and catching away:
This event is when the Lord descends from heaven to resurrect the dead and change and catch up the living before God begins to pour out his wrath upon the earth. Scripture is clear that we as believers are not appointed to suffer wrath. Another error that expositors make is not recognizing the difference between common persecution and the wrath of God, also known as the day of the Lord. Common persecution comes at the hands of mankind with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the spiritual background. Where the wrath of God is God directly and deliberately pouring out his wrath upon mankind. The day of the Lord that was prophesied in part by the prophet's of old is listed in detail in the book of revelation in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and will be removed prior to these events. The following is just one of many examples that the resurrection and catching away will take place prior to when Christ returns to the earth to end the age:
"I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean."
Who are these riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean?
Some claim that they are angels, but they would be wrong. Though angels will be present as well when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, these on white horses wearing white linen are not angels. We are told who they are in a couple of different scriptures. Rev.17:12-14 below is a preview of Rev.19:14.
"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
Those called, chosen and faithful followers of Rev.17:14-15 are the very same riders on white horses dressed in fine linen white and clean described in Rev.19:14. It is clear that called, chosen and faithful followers is not a designation for angelic beings, but of the redeemed. Therefore, those who are following Christ out of heaven when he ends the age, will be those of whom the Lord will have previously resurrected and caught up prior to the beginning of God's wrath.
Another scriptural clue as to who these are on white horses and who are wearing white clothing is found in Rev.19:6-8.
"I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:“Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”
Notice that in the Scripture above that it states that "his bride has made herself ready." According to Scripture, we know that the bride is a designation of the church. Notice also that it is the bride/church that is being given fine linen, bright and clean to wear. This is the same clothing mentioned that those riders on the white horses are wearing, ergo, the church of Christ are those who are riding on white horses and are wearing the fine linen, white and clean and are following Christ out of heaven.
For those who believe that the resurrection and catching away is synonymous with Rev.20:4, I would point out that there is only a resurrection mentioned here and no living believers are mentioned as being changed and caught up. This group in Rev.20:4 are apart of the first resurrection, they being those who will have been beheaded because during that time they will keep the testimony of Christ and the word of God and they will not have worshiped the beast, his image and will have not received his mark on their hands or foreheads. This would demonstrate that this group are not people from different times in history, but will be those great tribulation saints who will be exposed to the time period of the beast and his kingdom. This group will be Gentile's who will have become believers after the church has been removed from the earth and will be exposed to everything that is taking place on earth during that time, including God's wrath and everything taking place with the beast and the false prophet.
Another proof that the church will be removed prior to the time of God's wrath is that, from chapters 1 thru the very end of chapter 3, the word Ekklesia translated "Church" is mentioned over 20 times, but you will not find the word "Hagios" translated "Saints." Likewise, from chapter 4 on, only the word Hagios/saints is listed and you never see the word Ekklesia/church mentioned within the narrative. It is not until outside of the narrative that we see the word church appear in Rev.22:16. This demonstrates that the church is not present on earth during the time when the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are taking place, which is the wrath of God.
Blessings in Chist
C
The rapture doctrine was made up by a woman back in the 1800. She stated the rapture theory, saying that Christians were going to fly away up into the air & that those people will be taken before all he'll breakers lose here on earth. It's a bunch of bull to fool people. Jesus never said that we would taken up. Jesus will descend back to this earth, which will transform into the new heaven age. Rapture is not in the bible. It's satan's way of fooling people. Many will be fooled and follow him into the dream of being flown away.
T
As a Pre Wrath believer I beg to differ. The tribulation does not refer to the whole seven year period. It refers to the time
leading up to the sixth seal. This period includes the revealing of the Antichrist and his claim to be God. He persecutes
the saints,(Jews and Christians). This is not the Wrath of God but the Wrath of Satan.
And I heard a loud voice saying in Heaven. Now is come salvation, and strength,and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony:and they loved not their lives unto death. Therefore rejoice ye heavens and them that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea for the devil is come down to you HAVING GREAT WRATH, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. REV 12 10-12 KJV
The sevenTrumpets and bowls are the actual wrath of God . They commence at the point between the sixth seal and the first Trumpet when the rapture occurs. We are saved from the wrath of God but not from the Tribulation.
The Six seals match the order of events given by Jesus in Matthew 24. Also if the Church had been raptured before the seven years commenced who are those who are martyred for the testimony of Jesus. IF they are saved then they are part of the Church if so it means only part of the Bride is in heaven at the wedding feast and those on earth are left to suffer.
leading up to the sixth seal. This period includes the revealing of the Antichrist and his claim to be God. He persecutes
the saints,(Jews and Christians). This is not the Wrath of God but the Wrath of Satan.
And I heard a loud voice saying in Heaven. Now is come salvation, and strength,and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony:and they loved not their lives unto death. Therefore rejoice ye heavens and them that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea for the devil is come down to you HAVING GREAT WRATH, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. REV 12 10-12 KJV
The sevenTrumpets and bowls are the actual wrath of God . They commence at the point between the sixth seal and the first Trumpet when the rapture occurs. We are saved from the wrath of God but not from the Tribulation.
The Six seals match the order of events given by Jesus in Matthew 24. Also if the Church had been raptured before the seven years commenced who are those who are martyred for the testimony of Jesus. IF they are saved then they are part of the Church if so it means only part of the Bride is in heaven at the wedding feast and those on earth are left to suffer.
