the cost of free will

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ember

Guest
#21
#21
FreeNChrist said:

God desires a genuine love relationship with us. For that to happen there must be the freedom to choose. Love cannot be forced or coerced. Love is either freely given and freely received or it is not love.
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yet don't we have to learn to love as well?

a child, for example, is all about me, myself and I...a parent is supposed to teach that you share, you are polite, you don't always get your way so no use wanting or demanding it...and so on...

saying God desires a genuine love relationship um...don't take this the wrong way...but does He really? what is the sum of the love God wants then, if that is what He wants...I am probably sounding philosophical at this point, but love can so be forced...people do it to each other all the time...ie: if you love me you will...(fill in the blank) or if you loved me you would...(fill in the blank)

I guess maybe you mean God wants His love returned? which is a different story

I am not satisfied with the example of love must be free choice...maybe that's just me...but...
 
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ember

Guest
#22
#22
FreeNChrist said:
I hate math. The freedom of having genuine choice is not the constrainer, creation is. We have freedom to choose, but only from the choices available to us within the framework in which we exist.

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ok well, I sure don't insert math, but reading this, I thought: we cannot choose what we do not know is there...and we do not necessairly know what the consequences of what we do choose, will be

then again, is there a constraint if we do not know there is a constraint?

knowing human nature a little, I would think that we would all be trying to tear down the constraints so as to have 'freedom'

either way, we come to the end of the maze...it is finite

thinking in abstracts...but God, having no end and no beginning, would let us go ahead and do that I think
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#23
#23
posthuman said:
that makes the 'the framework in which we exist' a set of constraints.

before we knew Him, we were greatly constrained!
not only could we not please Him, (Romans 8:7-8), but we couldn't even understand Him (2 Corinthians 2:12-16) and we were held in slavery to sin & all kinds of lusts (Romans 6:20, John 8:34).

but being made free, the flesh is condemned - for what it chose of it's so-called 'free will' -- and we, being alive through the Spirit, are made in Him able to stand, and to be truly 'free' - even so, we exist in a new framework - the framework of Christ, through the Spirit, and are 'constrained' as slaves to righteousness, though not in the same way as we were willingly to sin, but voluntarily after Him, our hearts unconstrained by what was before, and constrained by His own faithfulness towards us, making us new.



that's a shame, but very common. i'm a mathematician.

grace and peace be multiplied to you! ;)
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There is a story told from Civil War days before America’s slaves were freed, about a northerner who went to a slave auction and purchased a young slave girl. As they walked away from the auction, the man turned to the girl and told her, “You’re free.”

With amazement she responded, “You mean, I’m free to do whatever I want?”

“Yes,” he said.

“And to say whatever I want to say?”

“Yes, anything.”

“And to be whatever I want to be?”

“Yep.”

“And even go wherever I want to go?”

“Yes,” he answered with a smile. “You’re free to go wherever you’d like.”

She looked at him intently and replied, “Then I will go with you.”


 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#24
#24
ember said:
yet don't we have to learn to love as well?

a child, for example, is all about me, myself and I...a parent is supposed to teach that you share, you are polite, you don't always get your way so no use wanting or demanding it...and so on...

saying God desires a genuine love relationship um...don't take this the wrong way...but does He really? what is the sum of the love God wants then, if that is what He wants...I am probably sounding philosophical at this point, but love can so be forced...people do it to each other all the time...ie: if you love me you will...(fill in the blank) or if you loved me you would...(fill in the blank)

I guess maybe you mean God wants His love returned? which is a different story

I am not satisfied with the example of love must be free choice...maybe that's just me...but...
Click to expand...
I think we love because God first loved us, don't we? His love for us begets love from us.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#25
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,400
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#25
You know...Jesus said, "After you have done all that you can (for the cause of Christ) to consider your self a lowly servant only doing the things you have been commanded to do." So my question is......While we do in essence CHOOSE to serve or not to serve, are we really choosing or making a free will choice when we do what we have been commanded to do as a servant? ;)

I suppose so.....choose you this day whom you will serve<---Joshua
 
E

ember

Guest
#27
#27
FreeNChrist said:
I think we love because God first loved us, don't we? His love for us begets love from us.
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for sure...I thought of that when posting what I did

well, that's me, I like to try and peek behind the curtain so to speak

that would be why we return His love
 
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ember

Guest
#28
#28
dcontroversal said:
You know...Jesus said, "After you have done all that you can (for the cause of Christ) to consider your self a lowly servant only doing the things you have been commanded to do." So my question is......While we do in essence CHOOSE to serve or not to serve, are we really choosing or making a free will choice when we do what we have been commanded to do as a servant? ;)

I suppose so.....choose you this day whom you will serve<---Joshua
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yeah that's interesting (and true) and somehow I see this tied into those built in restraints mentionned a few posts back
 
Patnubay

Patnubay

Senior Member
#29
May 27, 2014
498
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#29
posthuman said:
our sister was explaining to me last night how that sin, and suffering, and evil in the world are the result of mankind's agency to choose to turn away from God, toward wickedness instead of righteousness, loving darkness rather than light. how tremendous the cost is of what we call "free will" and are so proud to have.

the Lord paid for this with His own Son's blood.
that 'simple' ability to choose between the wrong and the right, and the necessary consequences of it.
He knew exactly what we cost to have been created and to be loved, and He still paid.

i thought you all might like to talk about this :)
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Yeah, I still can't put my mind at peace on the question "Is it really worth it to have that freewill?" I mean, our freewill was very minimal when we were kids but when we think of happy moments now, for sure the first thing to come to mind is childhood.
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#30
Mar 22, 2015
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#30
FreeNChrist said:

God desires a genuine love relationship with us. For that to happen there must be the freedom to choose. Love cannot be forced or coerced. Love is either freely given and freely received or it is not love.
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This is simply human reasoning. How can you possibly say what God can and cannot do?

Of course love can be coerced. what do we do when we want people to love us? We act in such a way that they will do so. If that is not coercion, what is?

You really do not know sufficient about our make up and what God can do to make such an assertion. You are simply following human ideas.

We love because He first loved us. That's coercion LOL
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#31
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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#31
Patnubay said:
Yeah, I still can't put my mind at peace on the question "Is it really worth it to have that freewill?" I mean, our freewill was very minimal when we were kids but when we think of happy moments now, for sure the first thing to come to mind is childhood.
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Our freewill is even more limited now that we are grown up. We are the slaves of our original nature, upbringing, environment, indoctrination, peer pressure, personal desires, and so forth. our decisions are made on this basis. We kid ourselves that we are 'free' but we are very much not so. We do what we have been formulated to do by nature and life.

The mind of the flesh is enmity against God, it is not subject to the law of God NOR INDEED CAN BE.
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#32
#32
valiant said:
This is simply human reasoning. How can you possibly say what God can and cannot do?

Of course love can be coerced. what do we do when we want people to love us? We act in such a way that they will do so. If that is not coercion, what is?

You really do not know sufficient about our make up and what God can do to make such an assertion. You are simply following human ideas.

We love because He first loved us. That's coercion LOL
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Nonsense. "Love" that is forced or coerced, in human terms is called rape.
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#33
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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#33
FreeNChrist said:
Nonsense. "Love" that is forced or coerced, in human terms is called rape.
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LOL you do have an earthly mind. That kind of love is called lust in Scripture, not love. of course God 'forces us' to love Him. When He envelops us with His love we have no choice.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#34
#34
valiant said:
LOL you do have an earthly mind. That kind of love is called lust in Scripture, not love. of course God 'forces us' to love Him. When He envelops us with His love we have no choice.
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That is a perverted understanding of "love".
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

Senior Member
#35
Sep 4, 2013
30,552
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#35
valiant said:
LOL you do have an earthly mind. That kind of love is called lust in Scripture, not love. of course God 'forces us' to love Him. When He envelops us with His love we have no choice.
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sigh................. :(
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#36
Jul 31, 2013
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#36
p_rehbein said:
sigh................. :(
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well, put it this way -- He opens our eyes to see eternal life by His grace through trusting in and clinging to Him, or death by disowning Him.

what kind of choice is that, honestly?

lol -- certainly not complaining! :)
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

Senior Member
#37
Sep 4, 2013
30,552
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#37
posthuman said:
well, put it this way -- He opens our eyes to see eternal life by His grace through trusting in and clinging to Him, or death by disowning Him.

what kind of choice is that, honestly?

lol -- certainly not complaining! :)
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yet the portion I quoted sounds too Calvanistic for my taste...........Robotics have no place in ones relationship with God in my opinion.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#38
#38
valiant said:
LOL you do have an earthly mind. That kind of love is called lust in Scripture, not love. of course God 'forces us' to love Him. When He envelops us with His love we have no choice.
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Forced love is never true love of the heart, soul, and mind !!!
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#39
#39
posthuman said:
well, put it this way -- He opens our eyes to see eternal life by His grace through trusting in and clinging to Him, or death by disowning Him.

what kind of choice is that, honestly?

lol -- certainly not complaining! :)
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It would not be a good choice to disown Him but it is still a choice one can make none the less.
 
E

ember

Guest
#40
#40
now I am going to get controversial again...to thine own self be true....probably just the little whirly gigs between my ears spin too quickly or something, but.....

Nonsense. "Love" that is forced or coerced, in human terms is called rape.
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num...uh...no...rape is no form of love yet there are different forms of rape...raping the land being one

I stated this:

saying God desires a genuine love relationship um...don't take this the wrong way...but does He really? what is the sum of the love God wants then, if that is what He wants...I am probably sounding philosophical at this point, but love can so be forced...people do it to each other all the time...ie: if you love me you will...(fill in the blank) or if you loved me you would...(fill in the blank)
Click to expand...
people play games of love...all the time

getting back to the idea of

we're solving:

X = affection

subject to

X ≠ coerced


where an optimal solution for X must be a member of the set {having freedom to choose}.

the constraint we're imposing is that X must be unconstrained.
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which was answered by

The freedom of having genuine choice is not the constrainer, creation is. We have freedom to choose, but only from the choices available to us within the framework in which we exist.
Click to expand...

which led to

that makes the 'the framework in which we exist' a set of constraints.
Click to expand...
which led to me thinking

I thought: we cannot choose what we do not know is there...and we do not necessairly know what the consequences of what we do choose, will be

then again, is there a constraint if we do not know there is a constraint?

knowing human nature a little, I would think that we would all be trying to tear down the constraints so as to have 'freedom'

either way, we come to the end of the maze...it is finite

thinking in abstracts...but God, having no end and no beginning, would let us go ahead and do that I think
Click to expand...
and then a whole bunch of you are a whacko stuff was flung around

but I would like to get back to the constraints and what God expects and what is love how we see it and return it...without trite put the kid to bed it's past their bedtime answers?

frightening I know...do you see yourself reflected on the water Jesus walked on?
 
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