Departure From Oblivion!

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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,374
113
#81
Hi shotgunner,

I would have to concur. It is amazing to me in these days how many people cling to the law, which we are 2000 years removed from. Regarding this, scripture says:

"For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God."

The above is pretty clear and should end the controversy, but there is one even clearer which I call "The law killer:"

The claim:
"Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts 15:5)

The Answer:
"After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Circumcision and the law of Moses would include all six hundred plus works of the law, the whole enchilada! And the answer regarding circumcision and obeying the law was NO! Yet, there are still many people who refuse to let go and trust in Christ as the One who met the righteous requirements of the law on our behalf and who paid the penalty for our sins. They will say, "Oh, I believe that Jesus is the only way of salvation" while at the same time telling you that we must keep the Sabbath on Saturday as a requirement for salvation, they claim that we are still bound by the ten commandments, must abstain from certain foods, etc., etc. They don't realize that those works as a means for salvation, cancels out grace. A person is either under the law or under grace, but not both. Anyone who puts themselves under the works of the law have been alienated from Christ. They have wandered away from grace.

Jesus gave us an example of those people who trust in their own works when said: "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Their own words give them away as to why they are not entering in by saying "did we not." Their answer demonstrates that they are counting on their own works instead of the shed blood of Christ. Jesus fulfilled the law and nailed it to the cross as completed. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
 
S

shotgunner

Guest
#82
Hi shotgunner,

I would have to concur. It is amazing to me in these days how many people cling to the law, which we are 2000 years removed from. Regarding this, scripture says:

"For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God."

The above is pretty clear and should end the controversy, but there is one even clearer which I call "The law killer:"

The claim:
"Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts 15:5)

The Answer:
"After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Circumcision and the law of Moses would include all six hundred plus works of the law, the whole enchilada! And the answer regarding circumcision and obeying the law was NO! Yet, there are still many people who refuse to let go and trust in Christ as the One who met the righteous requirements of the law on our behalf and who paid the penalty for our sins. They will say, "Oh, I believe that Jesus is the only way of salvation" while at the same time telling you that we must keep the Sabbath on Saturday as a requirement for salvation, they claim that we are still bound by the ten commandments, must abstain from certain foods, etc., etc. They don't realize that those works as a means for salvation, cancels out grace. A person is either under the law or under grace, but not both. Anyone who puts themselves under the works of the law have been alienated from Christ. They have wandered away from grace.

Jesus gave us an example of those people who trust in their own works when said: "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Their own words give them away as to why they are not entering in by saying "did we not." Their answer demonstrates that they are counting on their own works instead of the shed blood of Christ. Jesus fulfilled the law and nailed it to the cross as completed. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.


That's the part that the law keepers don't understand. They think that to be free from the law means lawlessness, and license to sin. That is not the case at all. It is an ever greater and closer walk with the Lord, as he intended all along. The Holy Spirit leads and guides in every area of life, and the great thing is that even when we stumble and fall we are not hindered by a false sense of guilt and endless penance, but we are free to arise ,be restored and continue to serve.

That is exactly what Paul is saying here.
Romans 7:6King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Notice that even delivered from the law ,we still serve, but in a better and living way. We serve in the newness of the Spirit. We have the very Spirit of God inside to lead us!! Why would we want to be bound to something that was only ever intended to show us how wretched we are!



 
Mar 4, 2013
7,761
107
0
#83
Oh good grief. Before this is over you will be keeping Passover and all of the Jewish feasts. Paul spent all of his Christian days divorcing the New Covenant from the Old Covenant they are not compatible. This is just another tangent that causes division in the Church.

Paul had the same problem in his day. He was constantly at war with the Judiazers who wanted to drag the New Covenant people back into the confines of the Old Covenant. These two mixed together create a hybrid Gospel alien to the teachings of the Disciples.
Please explain this statement of Paul's if he "spent all of his Christian days divorcing the New Covenant from the Old Covenant they are not compatible.

"But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:" (Acts 24:14)

Then compare what you said to what you have been taught concerning Paul's ministry.

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" (2 Thessalonians 2:11)



 
Mar 4, 2013
7,761
107
0
#84
Oh. One more thought that I'd like to present concerning the thread title, and obliviousness.

Rhetorically, "Why do we debate about the words our Almighty God has spoken?" Are we taking the Lord's name in vain when we inadvertently attempt to repress our Lord's words using the salvation of Christ as an excuse? Shouldn't we be talking about the annihilation of sin rather than the annihilation of God's words? Was it God's words that were crucified, or was it our sin?

It cannot be both! :( Seems that there has been so much preaching against the law, (God's own words, not man's) using Paul as an excuse, that we fail to understand what the law given to ancient Israel really says.

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." (Matthew 23:23)

How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? (John 5:44-47)

Are these arguments causing obliviousness? (stalemated consciously refusing to comprehend a greater truth)
 
E

ember

Guest
#86
I see the fulfillment of the law as Jesus having been the only man to have ever kept all the law. In fact the only man who could keep the law not having been born into sin, but being born of a virgin, not having the sin nature of Adam but born of God's word made flesh. Jesus never sinned, therefore kept all the law, therefore fulfilled the law.

Romans 8

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[SUP]a[/SUP] free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[SUP]b[/SUP] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[SUP]c[/SUP] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

I was puzzling over the above this am....reading and re-reading and asking God to help me understand

first of all, apparently Paul uses the word 'law' in different ways...we have a law as a good thing (spirit of life) and we have the law that condemns but then I think I saw something else. this:

For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,

the law was a good thing...not a bad thing (excuse the simple words, I am trying to delineate in a simple way)..but because of our (sinful) flesh it condemned us instead of saving us. I know we all know this...but I actually never really saw that the law was there to save...by saying it was powerless to save, I understand that it was as though it was weak to save because we made it so...always an offering of blood had to be made for forgiveness...but the Bible also states that the blood of animals could not atone...it was a kind of stop-gap measure

so the final sin offering...the perfect Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world...Jesus, was sent by God to make up for our weakness AND (this is the clincher for me) to UPHOLD the law! The law cannot be changed...if you live under it you are condemned by it...if you appropriate the sacrifice of Jesus by faith, you are declared righteous by God who Himself prepared the sacrifice, dressed it in human flesh, sent it down (I'm saying it, meaning Jesus as sacrifice...I would never call Jesus 'it')

John prepared the way...the Lamb showed up, was declared to be so and then presented Himself to God for 4o days in the wilderness, was tempted and overcame by 'it is written' and then presented Himself for the world and was finally offered to God, for the world...he was not killed...He offered Himself...as a sacrifice must be offered and He was found acceptable as He arose from the dead and in doing so, God demonstrated His acceptance.

I believe it is more than simply Jesus never sinned.

I'm still thinking about it
 
E

ember

Guest
#87
And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
we see here that sin had to be condemned in flesh...Jesus came in the form of flesh the Bible says...so that the law, which was powerless because of sin, might become powerful TO save...if we do not live according to it but instead we live BY the law of the Spirit of life

this, is somehow different from how I saw before

I think it might be right and a little more involved than saying Jesus is the fullfillment of the law...which is fine to say, I think, but understanding is more
 
E

ember

Guest
#88
Oh. One more thought that I'd like to present concerning the thread title, and obliviousness.

Rhetorically, "Why do we debate about the words our Almighty God has spoken?" Are we taking the Lord's name in vain when we inadvertently attempt to repress our Lord's words using the salvation of Christ as an excuse? Shouldn't we be talking about the annihilation of sin rather than the annihilation of God's words? Was it God's words that were crucified, or was it our sin?

It cannot be both! :( Seems that there has been so much preaching against the law, (God's own words, not man's) using Paul as an excuse, that we fail to understand what the law given to ancient Israel really says.

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." (Matthew 23:23)

How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? (John 5:44-47)

Are these arguments causing obliviousness? (stalemated consciously refusing to comprehend a greater truth)

I am just going to say this:

I don't believe sin was crucified...perfect flesh was crucified in order to give the law power in that it's requirements were (finally) met

I'm not splitting hairs

See, in Romans 6: 6 we read:

knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

so it is talking about flesh...not sin as an abstract entity...WE are the ones that give sin life IN our flesh...so I think it more correct (by that I mean understanding better) to see the substantiation rather than sin crucified...if it could have been really crucified, would it still be around?

no...I think the law now has the power to condemn and no sacrifice save the Lamb of God meets its requirements and we IN Him are made righteous
 
Last edited:
S

shotgunner

Guest
#89
Romans 8

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[SUP]a[/SUP] free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[SUP]b[/SUP] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[SUP]c[/SUP] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

I was puzzling over the above this am....reading and re-reading and asking God to help me understand

first of all, apparently Paul uses the word 'law' in different ways...we have a law as a good thing (spirit of life) and we have the law that condemns but then I think I saw something else. this:

For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,

the law was a good thing...not a bad thing (excuse the simple words, I am trying to delineate in a simple way)..but because of our (sinful) flesh it condemned us instead of saving us. I know we all know this...but I actually never really saw that the law was there to save...by saying it was powerless to save, I understand that it was as though it was weak to save because we made it so...always an offering of blood had to be made for forgiveness...but the Bible also states that the blood of animals could not atone...it was a kind of stop-gap measure

so the final sin offering...the perfect Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world...Jesus, was sent by God to make up for our weakness AND (this is the clincher for me) to UPHOLD the law! The law cannot be changed...if you live under it you are condemned by it...if you appropriate the sacrifice of Jesus by faith, you are declared righteous by God who Himself prepared the sacrifice, dressed it in human flesh, sent it down (I'm saying it, meaning Jesus as sacrifice...I would never call Jesus 'it')

John prepared the way...the Lamb showed up, was declared to be so and then presented Himself to God for 4o days in the wilderness, was tempted and overcame by 'it is written' and then presented Himself for the world and was finally offered to God, for the world...he was not killed...He offered Himself...as a sacrifice must be offered and He was found acceptable as He arose from the dead and in doing so, God demonstrated His acceptance.

I believe it is more than simply Jesus never sinned.

I'm still thinking about it

Yes, it is more than just Jesus never sinned. That is only the way he fulfilled the law. Jesus also paid the price for breaking the law, but since he never broke it himself, that price is for all who will accept it.

No. The law is not to be looked at as evil nor in any way to be despised. Paul even says that it is good and just and holy. The law is wonderful in what it was designed to do, which is reveal sin. The law was never given by God as a means for man to become righteous through keeping it. It was given to reveal the sinfulness of their sins, so they would see the need for sacrifice, which in turn would lead them to accept the only perfect sacrifice of Jesus.

The problem with law comes when someone uses it to either examine themselves, or to justify themselves. When this happens they have turned away from faith in the savior and the sacrifice, and they are only looking to themselves for salvation.

A born again person need not be concerned with the letter of the law, for they have the very spirit of God which wrote the law living inside them. That Spirit will not lead them astray if they only follow him. We would be much better Christians if we spent more time teaching how to hear, recognize, and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, then we teach following the law.
 
Mar 4, 2013
7,761
107
0
#90
I am just going to say this:

I don't believe sin was crucified...perfect flesh was crucified in order to give the law power in that it's requirements were (finally) met

I'm not splitting hairs

See, in Romans 6: 6 we read:

knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

so it is talking about flesh...not sin as an abstract entity...WE are the ones that give sin life IN our flesh...so I think it more correct (by that I mean understanding better) to see the substantiation rather than sin crucified...if it could have been really crucified, would it still be around?

no...I think the law now has the power to condemn and no sacrifice save the Lamb of God meets its requirements and we IN Him are made righteous
Who his own self bare our "sins" in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (1 Peter 2:24)

What you say has to agree with this verse also, and we see that the "works of the flesh" are actually sinful, being one and the same.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21)
 
B

BarlyGurl

Guest
#91
Good morning... It is awesome to see a "discussion" going on and no hurling accusations... thanks everyone:D
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#92
what is the fullfillment of the law? and please do not say ooo me ooo me...I have the answer!!! Jesus!

because I think what I am seeing here, is that Jesus is the answer may be the same but the meaning of that answer is not the same

in other words. poster 1 saying 'Jesus' may mean there is nothing left for me to do

poster 2 saying 'Jesus' may mean I need to do the same

poster 3 saying 'Jesus' may mean I rest my case
By fulfilling the law, I mean he did it perfectly, in his thoughts, words and deeds. He lived the example of what it is to be perfect in God. He never had a hissy fit, he never back talked mom, dad, or Dad, he never begrudgingly anything, he never coveted, he never lied, he never gossiped, he never called a brother a fool (please note -- he did call some fools), he never "but that's not fair" even when what he was asked to do wasn't "fair" to him, (he never sinned, yet he died for other's sins. Seems unfair to me, but I sin and he doesn't, so he never did that one even), he truly kept the Sabbath perfectly -- effortlessly -- someone really did want his cloak, so he gave it willingly (right before they scourged him, and he knew why they were taking his cloak and what they were going to do, but even then he didn't hate), he didn't worry about where his next meal or bed were coming from, he never worried that the fish weren't taking the bait, he never thought his Father was cruel for leaving him in his darkest hour (he cried out for that pain, yet didn't hate his Father for that -- mind blowing), he gave his firstfruit, and he went to be sacrificed as he was the firstborn.

He fulfilled all the tabernacle laws -- he washed, even though he didn't have to because he was clean (had to wash before Passover supper), he prayed for forgiveness like he was supposed to (he didn't need forgiveness, so he prayed for our forgiveness), he asked God to take the cup -- the precious blood of him; he gave his blood for us -- as a token of his upcoming sacrifice, and he was the yeastless bread (not one molecule of false doctrine in his bread), Passover lamb, the sacrificial lamb for sin offering, and the scapegoat for the sins of others.

There is not one law that he missed. He fulfilled the whole, complete, utter law and all implications. He showed what it is God wants from each of us, what it is that even if our flesh his weak, he'll cover that part, righteousness of God, mercy of God, sinless perfection of God, love of God, and long, long LONG suffering of God. He is the complete package. He IS God's Law, what we seek, and what we want... in our very best moments when he leads us.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#93


That's the part that the law keepers don't understand. They think that to be free from the law means lawlessness, and license to sin. That is not the case at all. It is an ever greater and closer walk with the Lord, as he intended all along. The Holy Spirit leads and guides in every area of life, and the great thing is that even when we stumble and fall we are not hindered by a false sense of guilt and endless penance, but we are free to arise ,be restored and continue to serve.

That is exactly what Paul is saying here.
Romans 7:6King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Notice that even delivered from the law ,we still serve, but in a better and living way. We serve in the newness of the Spirit. We have the very Spirit of God inside to lead us!! Why would we want to be bound to something that was only ever intended to show us how wretched we are!
Oh boy! A back and forth discussion between two guys who think it's all about what other people are or aren't getting right, while ignoring themselves, because they have it right. That will surely prove the case to all us other schmoes.
 
Aug 5, 2015
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#94
I agree with you to some extent, but one has to be careful which laws and commandments we obey and ignore. It is pretty obvious that the rituals relating to the temple are not binding on Christians, or at least I hope no one sacrifices Sheep and oxen in their back yard. I would advise not to stone a disobedient Son to death, however much you might be tempted. We need guidance from the Holy Spirit and some common sense when reading the Bible.
I don't believe there are any that we should ignore. My God didn't have to erase, delete, or in any way remove anything He said...but He also gave us a brain and He expects us to use it, just like any other gift from any other person. I have encountered people who think God had to re-evaluate and come up with a "plan B" sometimes but my God is omniscient and doesn't have that problem. People just seem to confuse Him with some other god they worship who resembles but is not the same as my El Shaddai (Almighty God).

Those physical rituals pertaining to the temple that you said are "not binding on Christians" are binding on Christians in a SPIRITUAL sense, since we are the temple now. A carnal mind will not comprehend this.

I am well acquainted with what it is like to have a disobedient son - I have three younger brothers and two sons - not that they are all bad boys but the subject is one I am well acquainted with. The spiritual equivalent of stoning a disobedient son is to put their sin away from us. I have witnessed and been a party to, the disciplining of unruly children, punishing appropriately when necessary, and trying the best we know how to train them right. But sometimes those efforts seem to be ineffective as a disobedient son gets older and is no longer a little boy who can be set in a corner, grounded, etc. Our country’s laws would certainly not allow for us to stone our disobedient children today, but we can refuse to keep company with those who sin willfully. And, though it sometimes takes a long time, it is effective and more importantly, the right thing to do. Think for a moment about what it would like to live back in biblical times and it was common knowledge what the punishment for a habitually disobedient child was – stoning…I most definitely believe the realization of what the consequences were would be a huge deterrent to bad behavior. In the same way, the death penalty was a great deterrent to murder, until man’s perversion of the command to truly love his neighbor watered it down and the death penalty became nearly eradicated in America because it was too harsh.
 
S

shotgunner

Guest
#95
Oh boy! A back and forth discussion between two guys who think it's all about what other people are or aren't getting right, while ignoring themselves, because they have it right. That will surely prove the case to all us other schmoes.
Are you a Schmoe? Is that the way you see yourself? I certainly didn't call you one, nor did anyone direct any comment toward anyone derisively.
 
B

BarlyGurl

Guest
#96
I don't believe there are any that we should ignore. My God didn't have to erase, delete, or in any way remove anything He said...but He also gave us a brain and He expects us to use it, just like any other gift from any other person. I have encountered people who think God had to re-evaluate and come up with a "plan B" sometimes but my God is omniscient and doesn't have that problem. People just seem to confuse Him with some other god they worship who resembles but is not the same as my El Shaddai (Almighty God).

Those physical rituals pertaining to the temple that you said are "not binding on Christians" are binding on Christians in a SPIRITUAL sense, since we are the temple now. A carnal mind will not comprehend this.

I am well acquainted with what it is like to have a disobedient son - I have three younger brothers and two sons - not that they are all bad boys but the subject is one I am well acquainted with. The spiritual equivalent of stoning a disobedient son is to put their sin away from us. I have witnessed and been a party to, the disciplining of unruly children, punishing appropriately when necessary, and trying the best we know how to train them right. But sometimes those efforts seem to be ineffective as a disobedient son gets older and is no longer a little boy who can be set in a corner, grounded, etc. Our country’s laws would certainly not allow for us to stone our disobedient children today, but we can refuse to keep company with those who sin willfully. And, though it sometimes takes a long time, it is effective and more importantly, the right thing to do. Think for a moment about what it would like to live back in biblical times and it was common knowledge what the punishment for a habitually disobedient child was – stoning…I most definitely believe the realization of what the consequences were would be a huge deterrent to bad behavior. In the same way, the death penalty was a great deterrent to murder, until man’s perversion of the command to truly love his neighbor watered it down and the death penalty became nearly eradicated in America because it was too harsh.
I know I said this once before but.... I LIKE YOUR MIND!;)
 
Aug 5, 2015
200
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#97

you certainly don't have to find yourself among those being chastised in the epistle to the Galatians in order to be taught the whole scripture.

the Lord has 7,000 reserved who teach what you sound like you think no one is teaching.
the most widely played Christian radio broadcaster in the world, for example, has been taking untold millions of listeners in a host of languages through the entire bible in a 5-year-long study for almost 50 years straight:

mp3's --


notes & outlines --

come & ride the 'Bible Bus' with us!

do it. all the resources there are free.
Thank you - I will check those pages out.