Render unto Cesar.........

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K

KennethC

Guest
#21
#21
BarlyGurl said:
<HEAD ON DESK>.... failure to effectively communicate.... I gather at this point Ken, you would never spank your child either.... no matter what how disobedient, wicked or how badly your child wrongs another person.... you won't spank him. :(
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Spanking a disobedient child for correction is not even in the same boat as putting a person to death for sinning !!!

That is just a bad comparison to do that and make such an assumption, because even the Lord our God chastises us for correction. There is no teaching of chastising a person to death without correction in the new covenant.

Lord Jesus took the punishment for our sins so that when we do sin again we have Him as our advocate so that we do not have to face the curse of the law by being put to death for that disobedience. The Lord showed this love to us in His mercy and forgiveness and we are commanded to show this to others.

So which of the 10 Commandments or other Mosaic laws have you broken ? The penalty for breaking the 10 is to be put to death in the old covenant.............
 
AceMichaels

AceMichaels

Banned
#22
Aug 21, 2015
196
1
0
#22
Vengeance is mine says the Lord!
I see the death penalty as revenge and that is for God.
 
B

BarlyGurl

Guest
#23
#23
KennethC said:
Spanking a disobedient child for correction is not even in the same boat as putting a person to death for sinning !!!
QUOTE]

OH!!!... I see you do understand the CONCEPT of consequences and corporal punishment... GOOD! I am having some trouble understanding WHY you are then dismissing the principal concept of capital punishment as a consequence for societal crimes?... Ken.. you are veering toward humanism and I am trying to show it to you.
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BarlyGurl

Guest
#24
#24
AceMichaels said:
Vengeance is mine says the Lord!
I see the death penalty as revenge and that is for God.
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Okay... but actual vengeance would be if the brother of the murder victim, went and bought a gun and shot the perpetrator on the court house steps before the trial ever happened... thus circumventing the justice system we have governing our society.... NOT allowing the judicial system to be applied INCLUDING following the course of capital punishment.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#25
#25
BarlyGurl said:
So in your thinking... is being FOR CAPITAL PUNISHMENT inclusive of CELEBRATING ETERNAL DAMNATION???
I think the two are entirely separate issues. I surely would not DANCE or REJOICE at the death of any person EXCEPT for a brother or sister in Christ whom I KNOW is heaven bound.... cuz that is rejoice worthy!
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You might not rejoice over such things, but I've personally witnessed many professing Christians do exactly that.

Several years ago, God graciously opened the door for me to teach a weekly Bible study at the home of an elderly unsaved Jewish man and his elderly wife who claimed to be saved. One week, one of their friends showed up for the study and she asked if she could say a prayer before we began the study. Seeing how it wasn't my home and seeing how both of the hosts agreed to her praying, I really had no say in the matter. Here was her prayer (word for word):

"Lord, please kill Osama bin Laden".

The two hosts said, "Amen!"...and I prepared myself to be crucified. I wasn't about to let this go and I tried to politely reason with them all that we ought to be praying for bin Laden's salvation instead. Well, they basically went berserk. The friend literally got up and started screaming and then she stormed out of the house. The host couple? Well, they suddenly remembered that they had something else to do that day and that they were also busy for the rest of their lives. That was literally the last time that I ever saw them.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#26
#26
BarlyGurl said:
KennethC said:
Spanking a disobedient child for correction is not even in the same boat as putting a person to death for sinning !!!
QUOTE]

OH!!!... I see you do understand the CONCEPT of consequences and corporal punishment... GOOD! I am having some trouble understanding WHY you are then dismissing the principal concept of capital punishment as a consequence for societal crimes?... Ken.. you are veering toward humanism and I am trying to show it to you.
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No I am not veering toward humanism, I am going by what the Lord Jesus Christ said.

For He is the one who by God came to show His love, mercy, and forgiveness to us for our sins, and took the punishment/curse of the law away so that we do not have to face it because He paid the price for us.

You still are trying to interject punishing a disobedient child "for correcting" as the same as putting a person to death.
They have absolutely no comparison and should not be in the same boat.

You also did not answer my question again, which of the 10 Commandments or Mosaic laws have you broken ???

The capital punishment for breaking most of them was to be put to death, especially that of the 10 moral commands of God.
We are no longer bound under the law, as we are under grace and in that grace love, mercy, and forgiveness is commanded to be followed. Jesus took the punishment for us, yet you seem you would still have that punishment issued out on some.

In other words you would be saying like the Pharisee said, "Thank God I am not like these other sinners."

Because you deem they are still have to face the curse of the law, but you do not. What makes you a better sinner then them that only they should be put to death by the law and not you, since you think the punishment is still valid ???
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K

KennethC

Guest
#27
#27
BarlyGurl said:
Okay... but actual vengeance would be if the brother of the murder victim, went and bought a gun and shot the perpetrator on the court house steps before the trial ever happened... thus circumventing the justice system we have governing our society.... NOT allowing the judicial system to be applied INCLUDING following the course of capital punishment.
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Not exactly true, because hatred comes from the lusts of the heart.
And if you have hatred toward a person for killing a family member, and that hatred wants to see them put to death then Jesus says you are just as guilty of the sin of murder.
 
AceMichaels

AceMichaels

Banned
#28
Aug 21, 2015
196
1
0
#28
BarlyGurl said:
Okay... but actual vengeance would be if the brother of the murder victim, went and bought a gun and shot the perpetrator on the court house steps before the trial ever happened... thus circumventing the justice system we have governing our society.... NOT allowing the judicial system to be applied INCLUDING following the course of capital punishment.
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It is still revenge even if a court does it. Death is not a deterrent and never has been. It is revenge
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#29
#29
KennethC said:
BarlyGurl said:
No I am not veering toward humanism, I am going by what the Lord Jesus Christ said.

For He is the one who by God came to show His love, mercy, and forgiveness to us for our sins, and took the punishment/curse of the law away so that we do not have to face it because He paid the price for us.

You still are trying to interject punishing a disobedient child "for correcting" as the same as putting a person to death.
They have absolutely no comparison and should not be in the same boat.

You also did not answer my question again, which of the 10 Commandments or Mosaic laws have you broken ???

The capital punishment for breaking most of them was to be put to death, especially that of the 10 moral commands of God.
We are no longer bound under the law, as we are under grace and in that grace love, mercy, and forgiveness is commanded to be followed. Jesus took the punishment for us, yet you seem you would still have that punishment issued out on some.

In other words you would be saying like the Pharisee said, "Thank God I am not like these other sinners."

Because you deem they are still have to face the curse of the law, but you do not. What makes you a better sinner then them that only they should be put to death by the law and not you, since you think the punishment is still valid ???
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Jesus told the woman who was caught in the act of adultery, a capital offense, to "go and sin no more". The self-righteous, of course, were more than ready to stone her to death.
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K

KennethC

Guest
#30
#30
AceMichaels said:
It is still revenge even if a court does it. Death is not a deterrent and never has been. It is revenge
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Yes we can not overlook that as vengeance is not only determined if done personally by somebody, but also comes by how that person feels about it. As like I just previously said quoting Jesus, for He said those who hate another has already committed murder in the heart. If your wish is to see them put to death out of that hatred, even if the courts rule it and have it carried out, does not relieve a person from the sin of hatred they have toward that individual.


JesusistheChrist said:
KennethC said:
Jesus told the woman who was caught in the act of adultery, a capital offense, to "go and sin no more". The self-righteous, of course, were more than ready to stone her to death.
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Yes Lord Jesus did not sit back and let them stone her to death as the Mosaic laws stated to be done, He on the other hand showed none of us have the right to make that decision on anothers life because we are all guilty of sin that would require that curse of the law.
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S

shotgunner

Guest
#31
#31
Yes, I am in favor of the death penalty. My thinking is that I am showing grace and mercy to whoever this person would likely harm again if released. No, we simply don't have the resources nor the responsibility to care for these people the rest of their natural lives.

I would give them the chance to speak to clergy but I wouldn't stick them on death row for decades.
 
AceMichaels

AceMichaels

Banned
#32
Aug 21, 2015
196
1
0
#32
Imo, Death is an awesome power that should be restricted for God. We have seen how misuse of this power has brought nothing but havoc. We have a society today that says kill the prisoner they deserve it and will be a burden.
Kill the unborn, we don't have the resources. Kill grandma and grandpa we just don't have the resources and besides they are a burden.
When does it end?
 
Agricola

Agricola

Senior Member
#33
Dec 10, 2012
2,638
88
48
#33
Vengence IS MINE, says The Lord, please note, it is HIS, not ours to do on His Behalf.

One issue I have is that the judicial system is never perfect. Throw in corruption and you can easily see an innocent person proven guilty.

A murder case may seem open and shut and it is easy to conclude that the person is guilty and lets just all go home and have him executed, but what if it was a mis-carrige of justice? Many innocent people have been executed and later pardoned.

Therefore I no longer wish to see death sentence applied in this day and age. If God wants to take some ones life as punishment then God can easily do it, God does not need a jury and the gallows.

Reminds me of a brilliant film, 12 Angry Men.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#34
#34
shotgunner said:
Yes, I am in favor of the death penalty. My thinking is that I am showing grace and mercy to whoever this person would likely harm again if released. No, we simply don't have the resources nor the responsibility to care for these people the rest of their natural lives.

I would give them the chance to speak to clergy but I wouldn't stick them on death row for decades.
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Actually we do have the resources to keep them in prison for the rest of their life if bleeding hearts would get off their high horse.

Remember there use to be a program where inmates did hard labor to earn their way in prison, it did not fall on tax payers to support these individuals.

There are still work programs in prisons but they only support a small number of inmates instead of all of them, and the bleeding hearts said the hard labor was cruel punishment so some prisons and states have moved away from those programs in prison. Plus talking to inmates that do work receive very small income below minimum wage, some even only get $20 a month.

The burden of housing them can be taken out of the tax payers hands and put back in their hands by work programs again, just need to get the bleeding hearts out of the way !!!
 
B

BarlyGurl

Guest
#35
#35
JesusistheChrist said:
KennethC said:
Jesus told the woman who was caught in the act of adultery, a capital offense, to "go and sin no more". The self-righteous, of course, were more than ready to stone her to death.
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That IS TRUE, JIEC, However, you are also excluding from your comparative use of this scripture passage that the WOMAN who was brought to Jesus was... just one person... and it takes TWO people to commit the act of adultery... thus the accusing parties were NOT administrating the law, rather MIS-appropriating it for the purpose of their own agenda. IF the woman had been caught in the very act... WHERE was her partner?
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Nautilus

Nautilus

Senior Member
#36
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
53
48
#36
KennethC said:
Micah 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

This verse does not justify the use of the death penalty in the new covenant, as once again doing justly means to walk properly in the love of God. It also here shows to love mercy which is what the Lord Jesus also showed about putting not putting a person to death because He requires mercy to be shown instead. (Matthew 9:13)

I will ask again do you believe you should still face physical death for your sins, or do you believe and know the Lord took that punishment for you ???

If you believe the Lord took that punishment for us on the cross for our sins, why do you still place punishment/curse of the law on others for their sins instead of showing them love and mercy under God's grace ???
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God took the penalty for our sins which was hell. He didnt give carte blanche to avoid the fleshly punishment for our crimes. Youre confusing spiritual punishment with worldly punishment.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#37
#37
BarlyGurl said:
JesusistheChrist said:
That IS TRUE, JIEC, However, you are also excluding from your comparative use of this scripture passage that the WOMAN who was brought to Jesus was... just one person... and it takes TWO people to commit the act of adultery... thus the accusing parties were NOT administrating the law, rather MIS-appropriating it for the purpose of their own agenda. IF the woman had been caught in the very act... WHERE was her partner?
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That is the bad exegesis that has been used on that verse for years that has been disproved, for Jesus response had nothing to do with the fact that the partner was not around.

He showed that nobody else was worthy of making that judgment call on her life because we are all guilty of committing sins under the law that required the death penalty by the law.

Jesus showed mercy and forgave the woman instead of letting the punishment/curse of the law be carried out.

This is not the only place also where Jesus rebuked or spoke against carrying out the punishment of death for breaking of a Mosaic law. There are two other times of when He healed the sick man on the Sabbath and had him pick up his bed and go, and the other was the disciples picking and eating grain on the Sabbath.

Both under the law required them to be put to death, as a man just collecting sticks on the Sabbath was put to death (Numbers 15:32-36).
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JesusistheChrist

Guest
#38
#38
BarlyGurl said:
That IS TRUE, JIEC, However, you are also excluding from your comparative use of this scripture passage that the WOMAN who was brought to Jesus was... just one person... and it takes TWO people to commit the act of adultery... thus the accusing parties were NOT administrating the law, rather MIS-appropriating it for the purpose of their own agenda. IF the woman had been caught in the very act... WHERE was her partner?
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Her "partner in crime" ought to have been brought before Jesus as well, but this doesn't alter the fact that Jesus didn't condemn her to the "death penalty" which her sin required under the Mosaic law. No, instead, He told her to "go and sin no more". I put down my "stones" years ago and I gave up sitting under gourds and waiting, nay, longing for, the judgment of God to come upon sinners as Jonah did as well.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#39
#39
Nautilus said:
God took the penalty for our sins which was hell. He didnt give carte blanche to avoid the fleshly punishment for our crimes. Youre confusing spiritual punishment with worldly punishment.
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Wrong it was the punishment or curse of the law that He took for our sins on the cross, as Galatians 3:13 clearly says.

For the word of God says anybody who has received the knowledge of the truth but continues to willfully/deliberately sin will still face the second death (fiery indignation of the lake of fire).

The woman caught in adultery, the disciples picking and eating grain on the Sabbath, and the man carrying his bed role on the Sabbath were all punishable by death according to the Mosaic laws. Lord Jesus did not hold any of those situations bound to those punishments of the law, He instead rebuked those who wanted to carry them out.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#40
#40
JesusistheChrist said:
Her "partner in crime" ought to have been brought before Jesus as well, but this doesn't alter the fact that Jesus didn't condemn her to the "death penalty" which her sin required under the Mosaic law. No, instead, He told her to "go and sin no more". I put down my "stones" years ago and I gave up sitting under gourds and waiting, nay, longing for, the judgment of God to come upon sinners as Jonah did as well.
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Exactly which is why I asked the question that has never been answered by anybody who supports the death penalty still as a Christian.

Question:

Should we all be put to death for our sins then, for we all are guilty of breaking His commands ???
 
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