Departure From Oblivion!

[BarlyGurl]

I have to disagree with that. The law was never intended to be a means to overcome sin. The law was meant to identify sin.

Okay SHOTGUN, <SMACKING MY FOREHEAD>... <taking deep breath>...you are going to need to offer more dialogue for why you are disagreeing because from my perspective.. there is a disconnect going on..... so I am thinking I need you to explain which "law" keeping you are talking about... cuz there is more than ONE and myself and a couple others are discussing SPIRITUAL LAWS in this thread and how to operate in that we are OVERCOMERS in Christ... not wretched succumbers that have NOTHING ELSE but a get out of hell free card.

 

[Shoshanah]

It seems apparent that if Christians read "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and take from it that 'Mosaic law' is not a necessary requirement but rather is optional material, can only be attributed to viewing the Torah much differently than the “Old Testament Saints” did.

I found several explanations for how these people viewed the Torah in Bible times but here are a few. One is that they perceived obedience to the law as an expression of covenant relationship--obey the voice of God, and this obedience to the law was perceived as the external expression of an inward disposition of fear and faith in God and love for God. Another one I found most profound is that being able to hear what the God of Israel wanted was considered a unique privilege compared to the gods of the nations who didn't speak – pagan religions. They were thankful to know with clarity and confidence what God wanted for their lives. This is so sadly lacking today where professing Christians act as if God is supposed to do their will simply because they claim to be Christians. That is a pitiful state of affairs. One more is that while they believed the commandments were achievable, it was also understood that God, recognizing their propensity to sin, had provided a means for forgiveness and communion through the sacrificial and ceremonial ritual. And those physical rituals of sacrifice flow seamlessly into the doctrine of the New Testament where we are the temple now, the renewed covenant!

People like to say the old and new covenants are completely separate but Jeremiah looks forward to a time when physical Israel and spiritual Israel will be as a complete and balanced entity, when all will love God and make it obvious by their lives that his Torah has been written on their hearts.
Jeremiah 31:31-34: "Here, the days are coming," says ADONAI, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Isra'el and with the house of Y'hudah.
32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers on the day I took them by their hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, violated my covenant, even though I, for my part, was a husband to them," says ADONAI.
33 "For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Isra'el after those days," says ADONAI: "I will put my Torah within them and write it on their hearts; I will be their God, and they will be my people.
34 No longer will any of them teach his fellow community member or his brother, 'Know ADONAI'; for all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest; because I will forgive their wickednesses and remember their sins no more."

One last observation before ending this post – I have been told by professing Christians that they don’t need to study because the Holy Spirit writes the Torah on their hearts. This is an obvious blatant untruth because they can’t tell me anything the Torah says except ‘the ten commandments’. If it was in their hearts, they would not fight against those who respect and revere the Torah and they would know a whole lot more than the ten commandments.

 

[KennethC]

It seems apparent that if Christians read "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and take from it that 'Mosaic law' is not a necessary requirement but rather is optional material, can only be attributed to viewing the Torah much differently than the “Old Testament Saints” did.

I found several explanations for how these people viewed the Torah in Bible times but here are a few. One is that they perceived obedience to the law as an expression of covenant relationship--obey the voice of God, and this obedience to the law was perceived as the external expression of an inward disposition of fear and faith in God and love for God. Another one I found most profound is that being able to hear what the God of Israel wanted was considered a unique privilege compared to the gods of the nations who didn't speak – pagan religions. They were thankful to know with clarity and confidence what God wanted for their lives. This is so sadly lacking today where professing Christians act as if God is supposed to do their will simply because they claim to be Christians. That is a pitiful state of affairs. One more is that while they believed the commandments were achievable, it was also understood that God, recognizing their propensity to sin, had provided a means for forgiveness and communion through the sacrificial and ceremonial ritual. And those physical rituals of sacrifice flow seamlessly into the doctrine of the New Testament where we are the temple now, the renewed covenant!

People like to say the old and new covenants are completely separate but Jeremiah looks forward to a time when physical Israel and spiritual Israel will be as a complete and balanced entity, when all will love God and make it obvious by their lives that his Torah has been written on their hearts.
Jeremiah 31:31-34: "Here, the days are coming," says ADONAI, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Isra'el and with the house of Y'hudah.
32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers on the day I took them by their hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, violated my covenant, even though I, for my part, was a husband to them," says ADONAI.
33 "For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Isra'el after those days," says ADONAI: "I will put my Torah within them and write it on their hearts; I will be their God, and they will be my people.
34 No longer will any of them teach his fellow community member or his brother, 'Know ADONAI'; for all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest; because I will forgive their wickednesses and remember their sins no more."

One last observation before ending this post – I have been told by professing Christians that they don’t need to study because the Holy Spirit writes the Torah on their hearts. This is an obvious blatant untruth because they can’t tell me anything the Torah says except ‘the ten commandments’. If it was in their hearts, they would not fight against those who respect and revere the Torah and they would know a whole lot more than the ten commandments.

The thing is we do see the laws had their purpose and that purpose was to bring us to Christ, for it shows us our sinful ways that separate us from God and a need for a Savior to reconcile us to Him.

After we are brought to Christ and under grace we are no longer under those written ordinances of the law to obey. We instead walk by the Spirit and let His guidance and fruits direct how we are to walk in the faith.

We are not to still continue to serve in the oldness of the letter of the law, but in the newness of the Spirit.

We should all continue to study with the Holy Spirit leading our every steps, and in that study by the Spirit's guidance you would know that we are not held to obey all 613 Mosaic laws.

One needs to look at how the Jews actually looked at the written laws as well to understand how to properly speak on them, for the Jews did also have the 10 Commandments separated from the rest of the Mosaic laws as they are considered God's moral laws as well.

Those who place themselves under the law the scriptures say they are bound to keep the whole entire thing, and if they don't then they are guilty of all of it. The bible says we who are under grace are not under the law !!!

 

[just-me]

We only accept it to the fact that it pointed out our transgressions to bring us to Christ, it was never intended to be 100% obeyed or you would not receive eternal life.

If that is the case then you have nobody going to heaven as even the Apostles mentioned that they did not keep it all 100%, and said it is an impossible yoke that was not to be put on the new Gentile believers.

Apostle Paul calls the Mosaic laws a yoke or spirit of bondage multiple times, and states we are not under the law.

No matter how you try to speak it you are still trying to put believers under the law, nowhere in the bible does it say if you don't keep the Mosaic laws to obey them you are condemned.

I'm not advocating that the works of the law are our justification. What I am saying, is "why is the rhetoric of making God's words void and abolished it rather than Jesus abolishing the enmity between Him and the human race?" By itself, the law is not sin, the law is not a curse, and the law is not an adversary of God's grace, for grace, truth, and law all came from the "One" who will never change.

You say "No matter how you try to speak it you are still trying to put believers under the law, nowhere in the bible does it say if you don't keep the Mosaic laws to obey them you are condemned."

I again say we live by God's every word because I believe what Jesus said to Satan is true. This statement of yours is a contradiction. Don't get me wrong. We both agree that the works of the law doesn't justify. Nevertheless, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children." (Hosea 4:6)

Look at what has happened in Missouri in the last year and think how different the outcome if God's law (being for the lawless) would have been preached by the church and enforced by the police. Why does the church preach the opposite and actually contribute to the chaos by not blowing the trumpet? Just because the works of the law has no salvation it doesn't give us the right to ignore it according to God's holy word.

Ezekiel 33:1-6
1 Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

 

[Shoshanah]

Look at what has happened in Missouri in the last year and think how different the outcome if God's law (being for the lawless) would have been preached by the church and enforced by the police. Why does the church preach the opposite and actually contribute to the chaos by not blowing the trumpet? Just because the works of the law has no salvation it doesn't give us the right to ignore it according to God's holy word.

Ezekiel 33:1-6

Yes, Ferguson Missouri is not exactly a beacon of righteous judgment.

 

[shotgunner]

I'm confused. Doesn't that bring it back to "Satan desires the law to disappear because it has power over his tactics?" The Law points to our inability and unrighteousness. Why in the world would Satan be pointed to that huge neon light? Kind of like saying, "See? This is why you shouldn't follow me."

Ok
If what you mean by "has power over his tactics" is that the law has the ability to reveal sin, then I completely agree.

The law has no power to overcome sin. In other words you will not get free from sin by keeping the law. You can never keep it perfect enough. It was never given to bring righteousness by obedience to it.

 

[just-me]

You are misunderstanding the purpose of what Jesus was saying there in John 5:44-47, for He was not about keeping the law.

It was about how the OT law and prophecies pointed to the Lord, and by recognizing that they would have believed that Jesus was that Messiah/Savior that was to come to redeem us from our ways.

Just like Apostle Paul expounded on in Galatians 3 that it was a tutor to bring us to Christ, but after Christ we are no longer under that tutor.

You want to keep having that tutor (law) in effect for us, but the scriptures clearly says it is not.

I never said John 5:44-47 was "about keeping the law," so your assumption of my misunderstanding is unwarranted. I quoted it because Jesus is saying if we don't want to believe the law, then we cannot believe what He said. In other words, there is a close connection between the law and our Savior Jesus Christ. If it's that close, then by turning our backs on the law because of the salvation of Jesus Christ is actually "taking the Lord's name in vain."

 

[KennethC]

I'm not advocating that the works of the law are our justification. What I am saying, is "why is the rhetoric of making God's words void and abolished it rather than Jesus abolishing the enmity between Him and the human race?" By itself, the law is not sin, the law is not a curse, and the law is not an adversary of God's grace, for grace, truth, and law all came from the "One" who will never change.

You say "No matter how you try to speak it you are still trying to put believers under the law, nowhere in the bible does it say if you don't keep the Mosaic laws to obey them you are condemned."

I again say we live by God's every word because I believe what Jesus said to Satan is true. This statement of yours is a contradiction. Don't get me wrong. We both agree that the works of the law doesn't justify. Nevertheless, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children." (Hosea 4:6)

Look at what has happened in Missouri in the last year and think how different the outcome if God's law (being for the lawless) would have been preached by the church and enforced by the police. Why does the church preach the opposite and actually contribute to the chaos by not blowing the trumpet? Just because the works of the law has no salvation it doesn't give us the right to ignore it according to God's holy word.

Ezekiel 33:1-6
1 Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Living by every word of God does not mean we have to continue to obey every aspect of it, as what it is really saying is that we need the OT laws to understand the real need and reason why the Lord was sent in the flesh to die for us.

Without those laws we would not know and understand how we are sinners, and how those sinful ways keep us enmity to God.
They taught us our need to be reconciled to God by a Savior, and not that they have brought us to the Lord we no longer need them to show us the way.

We are now lead by the Spirit under God's grace, and no longer under the law.

If we make the Mosaic laws a necessary thing to be obedient in keeping for salvation then nobody would be saved, because no matter how much one may say it the bible makes it clear no man keeps the whole law. Saying it in that way that it must be kept and followed also means you are seeking your justification by it.

There are multiple places the 10 Commandments are upheld in the NT, but you will find no place all 613 Mosaic written ordinances are. Instead you will find how a few of them have been changed on how they are observed in the new covenant, like that of clean and unclean food. The bible in the new covenant only restricts eating of things, if you know it was offered to idols, strangled, or its blood.

Other cases we are told to eat whatever is sold or served without asking !!!

 

[gb9]

o.k let's try this is a different direction. is it sufficient for a believer to use Galatians 5 16-26 as a guide and checklist to Christian behavior??

I noticed that no one answered this?? could it be that it is good question?? just-me, you got nothing??

 

[KennethC]

I never said John 5:44-47 was "about keeping the law," so your assumption of my misunderstanding is unwarranted. I quoted it because Jesus is saying if we don't want to believe the law, then we cannot believe what He said. In other words, there is a close connection between the law and our Savior Jesus Christ. If it's that close, then by turning our backs on the law because of the salvation of Jesus Christ is actually "taking the Lord's name in vain."

We do not turn our backs on the law but it only serves it's purpose before coming to Christ, after coming to the Lord in the faith the law no longer serves a purpose for believers.

That is what we believe that the purpose of it was because of our transgressions to bring us to Christ, our need for a Savior to save us from the curse/condemnation that the law brought.

We after coming to Christ are no longer under the law, and therefore it has no place for us under grace.
As Apostle Paul says that what the law says is only for those who are under it, we who are under grace are no longer under the law therefore it says nothing to us now for we walk by the Spirit.

 

[Shoshanah]

The thing is we do see the laws had their purpose and that purpose was to bring us to Christ, for it shows us our sinful ways that separate us from God and a need for a Savior to reconcile us to Him.

What you are explaining is a partial understanding of the purpose of the Torah.

After we are brought to Christ and under grace we are no longer under those written ordinances of the law to obey. We instead walk by the Spirit and let His guidance and fruits direct how we are to walk in the faith.

And where did I, or anyone else who holds the same beliefs I do, say anything about being “under those written ordinances of the law” – all I saw was plenty of accusations that we want that but NO endorsing of that by anyone in the short time I have been a member.
Walking “by the Spirit” …hmm, I know I addressed this earlier in this thread…I hear that a lot (not just in the cc forums) and mostly from people who are nastier than any “unsaved” person I’ve met in a long time…so the claim that the Holy Spirit is teaching them seems far from genuine when there is no trace of the fruit of the Spirit to be found. Is there actually something wrong about some part God's entire Word because of the "new" covenant?

We are not to still continue to serve in the oldness of the letter of the law, but in the newness of the Spirit.

We should all continue to study with the Holy Spirit leading our every steps, and in that study by the Spirit's guidance you would know that we are not held to obey all 613 Mosaic laws.

And if you understood the continuity of Old Testament through New Testament you would stop the foolish accusations – under the law – bah humbug!

One needs to look at how the Jews actually looked at the written laws as well to understand how to properly speak on them, for the Jews did also have the 10 Commandments separated from the rest of the Mosaic laws as they are considered God's moral laws as well.

Indeed! I just posted some of those ways they looked at the Torah in my last post!

Those who place themselves under the law the scriptures say they are bound to keep the whole entire thing, and if they don't then they are guilty of all of it. The bible says we who are under grace are not under the law !!!

I need a break – so I am not going to address this AGAIN.

 

[KennethC]

I noticed that no one answered this?? could it be that it is good question?? just-me, you got nothing??

Yes we should use Galatians 5:16-26 on how we are to walk and not walk in the faith, however be careful with some on here because they would then call you a legalist as well by showing a passage in scripture that shows there are still standards believers are to uphold and follow.

People want to believe we do not play a part in salvation and say we have no free will, but the OT and NT is full of free will examples of choice. We can chose to obey and walk in the Spirit and that path through the Lord leads unto eternal life, or can chose to continue in the flesh and that way is assured to lead those to eternal death.

 

[gb9]

thank you ken. you and I have not seen eye-to- in the past, but we agree on this. I was wondering how the Mosaic law folks would respond. but thank you for doing so.

 

[KennethC]

What you are explaining is a partial understanding of the purpose of the Torah.



And where did I, or anyone else who holds the same beliefs I do, say anything about being “under those written ordinances of the law” – all I saw was plenty of accusations that we want that but NO endorsing of that by anyone in the short time I have been a member.
Walking “by the Spirit” …hmm, I know I addressed this earlier in this thread…I hear that a lot (not just in the cc forums) and mostly from people who are nastier than any “unsaved” person I’ve met in a long time…so the claim that the Holy Spirit is teaching them seems far from genuine when there is no trace of the fruit of the Spirit to be found. Is there actually something wrong about some part God's entire Word because of the "new" covenant?



And if you understood the continuity of Old Testament through New Testament you would stop the foolish accusations – under the law – bah humbug!



Indeed! I just posted some of those ways they looked at the Torah in my last post!



I need a break – so I am not going to address this AGAIN.

I was never nasty or accusing in any of my responses to you, so maybe others have on here but nowhere did I.

You misunderstood what I said if you felt like I was accusing you of anything as all I was saying is what the bible says, that the law is only for those who are under it. We who are under grace are no longer under the law, and therefore what it says is no longer for us.

It served its purpose to show us our sinful ways and bring us to Christ.

The old covenant does not overlap or continue through the new covenant, in other words if you are in the new covenant the old covenant has no binding on your life. The old covenant and its laws are only for those who are not under grace, as in the Jews who do not accept Jesus as the Messiah yet, they still have themselves bound to the old covenant.

For us new covenant believers there is no yoke of bondage of the old covenant that applies to us !!!

 

[ember]

here's a repost of my post #86...I have not been able to keep up with answers, but I did just read...a little fast...posts UTD

Again, and I noticed someone else made note of this also since I did, Paul uses the word law in different ways...as I write in the post below...see green

the law was/is POWERLESS to save...it could never save because the ones God gave it to, were sinful and they MADE the law weak...see blue

This is all from Romans 8

Somehow, I am not too sure it is saying what some of you seem to think it is saying....the law actually CAN save IF you can keep it...but we cannot...so God, who GAVE the law, as a requirement for coming before Him and being called righteous BY Him, delivered the requirement for FULFILLING the law

At any rate, you cannot please God in the least in your own flesh...hence we are told to walk in the Spirit...if we walk in the Spirit we will want to do the things that God finds acceptable anyway! So, I'm not sure what the disagreements are about? Reading, it seems positions are being dug in and people are talking past each other and maybe agree more than they think they do?



REPOST BELOW

Romans 8

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[SUP]a[/SUP] free from the law of sin and death.3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[SUP]b[/SUP] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[SUP]c[/SUP] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

I was puzzling over the above this am....reading and re-reading and asking God to help me understand

first of all, apparently Paul uses the word 'law' in different ways...we have a law as a good thing (spirit of life) and we have the law that condemns but then I think I saw something else. this:

For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,

the law was a good thing...not a bad thing (excuse the simple words, I am trying to delineate in a simple way)..but because of our (sinful) flesh it condemned us instead of saving us. I know we all know this...but I actually never really saw that the law was there to save...by saying it was powerless to save, I understand that it was as though it was weak to save because we made it so...always an offering of blood had to be made for forgiveness...but the Bible also states that the blood of animals could not atone...it was a kind of stop-gap measure

so the final sin offering...the perfect Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world...Jesus, was sent by God to make up for our weakness AND (this is the clincher for me) to UPHOLD the law! The law cannot be changed...if you live under it you are condemned by it...if you appropriate the sacrifice of Jesus by faith, you are declared righteous by God who Himself prepared the sacrifice, dressed it in human flesh, sent it down (I'm saying it, meaning Jesus as sacrifice...I would never call Jesus 'it')

John prepared the way...the Lamb showed up, was declared to be so and then presented Himself to God for 4o days in the wilderness, was tempted and overcame by 'it is written' and then presented Himself for the world and was finally offered to God, for the world...he was not killed...He offered Himself...as a sacrifice must be offered and He was found acceptable as He arose from the dead and in doing so, God demonstrated His acceptance.

I believe it is more than simply Jesus never sinned.

I'm still thinking about it

 

[ember]

Romans 9

30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

33As it is written:“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.


Romans 10

5Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.”[SUP]a[/SUP]6But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ”[SUP]b[/SUP] (that is, to bring Christ down) 7“or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’ ”[SUP]c[/SUP] (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”[SUP]d[/SUP] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

11As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[SUP]e[/SUP]12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

 

[atwhatcost]

o.k let's try this is a different direction. is it sufficient for a believer to use Galatians 5 16-26 as a guide and checklist to Christian behavior??

Sure, if we had a clear understanding of all that means. Only way I know what all that means is to understand the Law. Even there, Jesus gave us a clearer imagine of the law when he gave us that quicky lesson about adultery.

How about you? Do you get all that without understanding the Old and New Covenant?

 

[Shoshanah]

I was never nasty or accusing in any of my responses to you, so maybe others have on here but nowhere did I.

You misunderstood what I said if you felt like I was accusing you of anything as all I was saying is what the bible says, that the law is only for those who are under it. We who are under grace are no longer under the law, and therefore what it says is no longer for us.

It served its purpose to show us our sinful ways and bring us to Christ.

The old covenant does not overlap or continue through the new covenant, in other words if you are in the new covenant the old covenant has no binding on your life. The old covenant and its laws are only for those who are not under grace, as in the Jews who do not accept Jesus as the Messiah yet, they still have themselves bound to the old covenant.

For us new covenant believers there is no yoke of bondage of the old covenant that applies to us !!!

I apologize for sounding grumpy toward you. I ask your forgiveness.
I had a bowl of chocolate-chocolate chip ice cream and I feel better now. But there is still no excuse to sound grumpy. I hang my head in shame.

The old covenant does not, as you say, overlap the new covenant. A study of the covenants shows that they are built one upon another - everything in the first (salt) covenant is included with the added provisions of the second (blood) and so on. It is as clear as anything can be that the new - or more accurately: renewed - covenant is based upon the old covenant, step-by-step, so to say what you do about it tells me you don't have that understanding. I have been reading a commentary/study about how the covenants fit together and how they work. It is very enlightening! But I see there is no point in trying to explain to you so I am calling a truce between us on this. That doesn't mean I quit contending for the faith altogether - just with you on this topic.

 

[gb9]

Sure, if we had a clear understanding of all that means. Only way I know what all that means is to understand the Law. Even there, Jesus gave us a clearer imagine of the law when he gave us that quicky lesson about adultery.

How about you? Do you get all that without understanding the Old and New Covenant?

the acts of the sinful nature are OBVIOUS. says Paul in the beginning of v. 19 then he lists them. the fruits of the Sprit are then listed, followed by against such things there is no law. so, why is that not good enough??

 

[Shoshanah]

here's a repost of my post #86...I have not been able to keep up with answers, but I did just read...a little fast...posts UTD

Again, and I noticed someone else made note of this also since I did, Paul uses the word law in different ways...as I write in the post below...see green

the law was/is POWERLESS to save...it could never save because the ones God gave it to, were sinful and they MADE the law weak...see blue

This is all from Romans 8

Somehow, I am not too sure it is saying what some of you seem to think it is saying....the law actually CAN save IF you can keep it...but we cannot...so God, who GAVE the law, as a requirement for coming before Him and being called righteous BY Him, delivered the requirement for FULFILLING the law

At any rate, you cannot please God in the least in your own flesh...hence we are told to walk in the Spirit...if we walk in the Spirit we will want to do the things that God finds acceptable anyway! So, I'm not sure what the disagreements are about? Reading, it seems positions are being dug in and people are talking past each other and maybe agree more than they think they do?



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Romans 8

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[SUP]a[/SUP] free from the law of sin and death.3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[SUP]b[/SUP] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[SUP]c[/SUP] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

I was puzzling over the above this am....reading and re-reading and asking God to help me understand

first of all, apparently Paul uses the word 'law' in different ways...we have a law as a good thing (spirit of life) and we have the law that condemns but then I think I saw something else. this:

For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,

the law was a good thing...not a bad thing (excuse the simple words, I am trying to delineate in a simple way)..but because of our (sinful) flesh it condemned us instead of saving us. I know we all know this...but I actually never really saw that the law was there to save...by saying it was powerless to save, I understand that it was as though it was weak to save because we made it so...always an offering of blood had to be made for forgiveness...but the Bible also states that the blood of animals could not atone...it was a kind of stop-gap measure

so the final sin offering...the perfect Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world...Jesus, was sent by God to make up for our weakness AND (this is the clincher for me) to UPHOLD the law! The law cannot be changed...if you live under it you are condemned by it...if you appropriate the sacrifice of Jesus by faith, you are declared righteous by God who Himself prepared the sacrifice, dressed it in human flesh, sent it down (I'm saying it, meaning Jesus as sacrifice...I would never call Jesus 'it')

John prepared the way...the Lamb showed up, was declared to be so and then presented Himself to God for 4o days in the wilderness, was tempted and overcame by 'it is written' and then presented Himself for the world and was finally offered to God, for the world...he was not killed...He offered Himself...as a sacrifice must be offered and He was found acceptable as He arose from the dead and in doing so, God demonstrated His acceptance.

I believe it is more than simply Jesus never sinned.

I'm still thinking about it

It is very encouraging and uplifting to see someone try so hard to be sure of understanding correctly and not just giving up until you have it figured out.
I don't find it difficult to see (but before I studied it at all I would say it was confusing) how smoothly the physical Torah instructions pave the way for a wonderful transition to the spiritual keeping of it in our hearts now that we are the temple.