Who's teaching you?

[RussellJBenigno]

LOL if it wasn't so deadly serious and tragic that would be funny! A pastor in one place here said to the congregation, and I am really not making this up, "we like to keep the Holy Spirit in a LOW PROFILE here". I thought wwhhhhhaaaaattttttt?

That is the spirit of Anti-Christ! I believe the "Great whore of Babylon" is the modern church.
I had a friend back in bible college who was miraculously healed and they threatened to stop him from graduating.

 

[shotgunner]

There are consequences for disobeying the word. You seem to have no problem with that.

For your info, if it will take, im a giver, not a taker. Much of my pension was called by God to make a gospel film, then give it away without charge. Giving to the poor on the street as He directs. So I have no problem obeying Him concerning giving. My problem is with the liars and thieves that extract widow's and the poor folk's money by twisting scripture. You should be concerned about that also. And if you are not, why not?

I've never once seen a pastor hold a gun to anyone making them give. One of the main problems in churches today is that they don't support their pastors. They expect them to answer calls anytime of the night, prepare sermons and still work 50 hours a week at a secular job to pay the bills. It's no twist of scripture that the laborer is worthy of his hire.

A pastor's job is one of the hardest around because he is on the job 24-7, yet too many congregations want to keep him poor and humble. Most times he can't even buy a nice vehicle with his own money from the job he works ,without someone accusing him of stealing the measly dollar they plopped in the offering.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

I've never once seen a pastor hold a gun to anyone making them give. One of the main problems in churches today is that they don't support their pastors. They expect them to answer calls anytime of the night, prepare sermons and still work 50 hours a week at a secular job to pay the bills. It's no twist of scripture that the laborer is worthy of his hire.

A pastor's job is one of the hardest around because he is on the job 24-7, yet too many congregations want to keep him poor and humble. Most times he can't even buy a nice vehicle with his own money from the job he works ,without someone accusing him of stealing the measly dollar they plopped in the offering.

I think the problem about tithes hovers around the miss use and manipulation of people in the church to give. There are leaders driving around in expensive cars and wearing expensive clothing while their congregation is in poverty. But on the other hand their are leaders who are worth the investment. Tithing was under the Law of Moses and meant to take care of the Priest and family and Temple up keep. I see no reason why it can't be utilized today in the same manner, but I don't see it as a mandate since we are not Israelite. I think some here were burned by its misuse.

 

[convallaria]

I used to be mystified by how false teaching in churches not dealt with. Now I understand we are all not going to be in agreement with each other. There is room for people to believe somethings from a different perspective. Now the "Tithe" has been mentioned and I understand the premise of the argument, but I don't think it is worth fighting over.

Amen, some things are just not worth fighting over. Also I like the fact that there is room for us all to be different, like the many faces of a jewel, they all reflect a slightly different angle and range of colour, but all radiate with the same Light.

There is a sister in the Lord locally, who saw what a state I was in after I was given the Left Foot (lol). She asked me what had happened and the Lord used her to give a word which delivered me from my anguish instantly. I know He has a sense of humour because neither she nor I can remember what the actual words were that she spoke, only that the chains fell off and I was no more troubled.

I am not sure how that fits in with the gifts of the Spirit...it was maybe prophecy but also deliverance and wisdom and knowledge all in there too...but what I do know was that the Lord Himself rescued me from what felt like a dreadful spiral of depression.

Such a change happened in my heart I was able to praise Him and rejoice. There is no human on earth who could do that!!! Halleluyah!!!

 

[Yet]

I used to be mystified by how false teaching in churches not dealt with. Now I understand we are all not going to be in agreement with each other. There is room for people to believe somethings from a different perspective. Now the "Tithe" has been mentioned and I understand the premise of the argument, but I don't think it is worth fighting over.

What I have observed is many of the poor can really be hurt by this forced tithe. It's a conversation that needs to take place.

Galatians is clear. If you place yourself under OT law, you have fallen from grace. Not in the sense of losing your salvation but in regard to the blessings of God.

To mislead folks to their damage is unconscionable. This needs to be cleared up.

 

[Crustyone]

The single paid pastor is not NT. the liturgy of the modern 'church' is not NT. I think you have my answer.

However, show me an assembly that is patterned after the NT, and I'll swim a river to be a part of it.

It would seem that pastors and those in charge of congregations are in the NT. 1 Timothy 3:1-7 1Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife,temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full[a] respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap. As for pastors I submit Ephesians 4:11-13 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, These are both from the NIV.

 

[ladylynn]

Possibly you just haven't looked hard enough or asked God to lead you to the right congregation. Some of the greatest lessons God has ever taught me were through my submitting to be taught by imperfect men. God has allowed me, by this act, to see much of his own personality, showing me his mercy ,compassion, longsuffering, and love that he has for us, even when we are imperfect and incorrect. There is much to be gained in submitting to a pastor, sometimes even for the both of you.

I have not read on to what more has been said after your post shotgunner, just wanted to say amen. It is astounding to me how God in His perfectness uses us imperfect vessels to accomplish His amazing work. His principles sure come out if we just look. For one thing, we must ask ourselves this question.,how does He stand us as individuals no less but then to also want to deal with us all in a group in a place of worship!!?? It is too funny!! But He does! He wants us to come together in our imperfectness and deal with one another as we also deal with ourselves in this Christian walk.

Yes, life is paved with tons of aggravations just when we are dealing with ourselves., but to actually go to a church and have to also deal with more people seems insane!! What was He thinking!!!!???? Like you said shotgunner, we learn more about God and about mercy, compassion and long suffering all based on His kind of love for us when we submit to doing it also in a church atmosphere with other flawed people like ourselves.

When we obey in something that just seems tooooo insane such as taking time to actually be with people who can be (and will be) annoying -He blesses us. I've thought a long time about this and see why He wants us together learning about Him. There is a structure in the Bible for how to go about worshiping and fellow shipping together. Working together and getting the Gospel out all over the world. Together as a unit we are stronger than we are a lone. Yes, God still loves us the same when we are not in a church body but He wants so much more for us.

No matter how we cut it, God wants us to be together in a community of believers. We all know the verse about not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together as the manner of some. He knows we have a tendency to go off on our own. Everyone submits and it's not exactly easy even with people we LOVE. But the relationships are worth the effort and obeying God always will lead to being blessed by Him.

 

[ladylynn]

You don't understand. It's not about following someone down the wrong path. We are all responsible for the Word of God. You don't follow anyone into darkness, but there is wisdom in the multitude of counselors. We are to follow those who through faith and patience have inherited the promises. The Word of God is not for private interpretation. That's exactly what you are doing when you, full of pride, refuse to submit to anyone.

We are to all be members of the body of Christ. The eye cannot say he knows better than the ear. There is only one head of the body and that is Christ. Don't you remember Jesus washing the disciple's feet and explaining how the greatest would be servant to all. That is what submission is about!!!

It's about having the heart of a servant. That's the heart of Jesus, not this prideful thing that says, "I have no need to be taught anything, for I hear from God." Those verses about having no need for any man to teach us, speak of us being able to have a personal living relationship with our savior. No longer do we need to speak to God through a high priest, for Jesus himself is our high priest and mediator before God. They do not speak of arrogance where a man elevates himself to a place where he can no longer receive council from mere men.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!

 

[ladylynn]

As we get older it's obvious not many of us can say we have not been very hurt and even damaged by some church affiliation. But that can be said about anything in this life. Relationships are not easy. Staying is not easy and walking away seems to be the answer for our emotional sanity. But it is not and never has been the answer for our life to run away. Some times we have to stay., some situations require it.

When there is an anger deep inside us that motivates and drives us don't be afraid to examine it. God gives us time to learn about why we were so hurt in a relationship and in a church. What were our expectations and where were our expectations. Were they in the people? Much like a marriage when you are hurt you withdraw.

Not saying to stay in an unbiblical church., find one that is biblical and stick with it. Have learned this after much pain so am not saying it flippantly. Blessings

 

[RussellJBenigno]

What I have observed is many of the poor can really be hurt by this forced tithe. It's a conversation that needs to take place.

Galatians is clear. If you place yourself under OT law, you have fallen from grace. Not in the sense of losing your salvation but in regard to the blessings of God.

To mislead folks to their damage is unconscionable. This needs to be cleared up.

I agree that the tithe is misused and can hurt people. However the concept can be used to good advantage. So I'm not looking at it as a Law to be followed, but rather a concept for supporting ministry. The Jews were under a mandate to do so and cursed if they didn't. We are under no mandate or curse for not tithing. Yet! There is still blessings when we give.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

There is a sister in the Lord locally, who saw what a state I was in after I was given the Left Foot (lol). She asked me what had happened and the Lord used her to give a word which delivered me from my anguish instantly. I know He has a sense of humour because neither she nor I can remember what the actual words were that she spoke, only that the chains fell off and I was no more troubled.

I am not sure how that fits in with the gifts of the Spirit...it was maybe prophecy but also deliverance and wisdom and knowledge all in there too...but what I do know was that the Lord Himself rescued me from what felt like a dreadful spiral of depression.

Such a change happened in my heart I was able to praise Him and rejoice. There is no human on earth who could do that!!! Halleluyah!!!

If it makes you feel better, I got the left foot of fellowship twice. On the second one they had secret meetings in the night, they only invited those who agreed with them, they plotted how to destroy me, they brought in false witnesses and tried to tangle me up in words. They then went on to say how they followed the scripture for this meeting. Yep! They sure did follow step by step and exactly what the Pharisees done. I even said what Jesus said,"Show me my sin", and silence fell over the tribunal.

 

[convallaria]

I have not read on to what more has been said after your post shotgunner, just wanted to say amen. It is astounding to me how God in His perfectness uses us imperfect vessels to accomplish His amazing work. His principles sure come out if we just look. For one thing, we must ask ourselves this question.,how does He stand us as individuals no less but then to also want to deal with us all in a group in a place of worship!!?? It is too funny!! But He does! He wants us to come together in our imperfectness and deal with one another as we also deal with ourselves in this Christian walk.

Yes, life is paved with tons of aggravations just when we are dealing with ourselves., but to actually go to a church and have to also deal with more people seems insane!! What was He thinking!!!!???? Like you said shotgunner, we learn more about God and about mercy, compassion and long suffering all based on His kind of love for us when we submit to doing it also in a church atmosphere with other flawed people like ourselves.

When we obey in something that just seems tooooo insane such as taking time to actually be with people who can be (and will be) annoying -He blesses us. I've thought a long time about this and see why He wants us together learning about Him. There is a structure in the Bible for how to go about worshiping and fellow shipping together. Working together and getting the Gospel out all over the world. Together as a unit we are stronger than we are a lone. Yes, God still loves us the same when we are not in a church body but He wants so much more for us.

No matter how we cut it, God wants us to be together in a community of believers. We all know the verse about not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together as the manner of some. He knows we have a tendency to go off on our own. Everyone submits and it's not exactly easy even with people we LOVE. But the relationships are worth the effort and obeying God always will lead to being blessed by Him.

Hi Ladylynn!

It must be great to have access to such a wonderful, normal gathering of the people of God . Not my experience here unfortunately but that is not to say that I don't long for it!

I am assuming you are not talking about gathering with those with whom we are not to be partakers of their sins...preaching against the Holy Spirit as many seem to want to do...or preaching things according to the flesh and not according to the word of God. There is real danger in hanging out with those guys and there seems to be no shortage of even cultish gatherings springing up everywhere.

We have to take into account individual experience and the clear counsel of God in such things. Sometimes I have overstayed my time in a local fellowship because I was scared to make a move in case I was being disobedient to the Lord. But by and by I received clear direction and confirmation from Him after I have stepped out in faith, because what I was stepping towards in my own heart was a position of better obedience, and a clearer expression of what the Lord has called me to do.

 

[convallaria]

If it makes you feel better, I got the left foot of fellowship twice. On the second one they had secret meetings in the night, they only invited those who agreed with them, they plotted how to destroy me, they brought in false witnesses and tried to tangle me up in words. They then went on to say how they followed the scripture for this meeting. Yep! They sure did follow step by step and exactly what the Pharisees done. I even said what Jesus said,"Show me my sin", and silence fell over the tribunal.

They did the same to me! They even spread rumours about me that I had offered an elder sex...who had implied as much because he was engaged in an adulterous relationship and didn't want to be found out.

But the Lord had other ideas and it was finally brought out in the open. Even with egg on their faces they couldn't apologize but continued to make me the bad guy by falsely accusing further.

Thing is I know, that there is no bitterness or unforgiveness inside me even with all that happened. It just isn't there because the Lord washed me of all the bad experience and all the lies and everything. But I can never go back to a place of pretense that everything was ok. An experience like that tends to make you look for the deeper picture as an explanation of how it could happen in the first place.

Right after that I was led to a community of believers online who had a more mature understanding than those I had left. We were able to discuss the major spirits at work in the congregations that people are unaware of until they become victims of them....antichrist spirit, jezebel spirit and pride...all working together like a stout buttress to support the continuation of their evil doings and to prevent any proper cleansing, repentance and change.

I have a kind of mourning inside me for how I know the church should look...not squeaky clean and perfect...(big red flag)... but a trifle ragged really, worshipping God in the Spirit, rejoicing in Christ Jesus, and having no confidence in the flesh.

Praise the Lord!

 

[Yet]

I agree that the tithe is misused and can hurt people. However the concept can be used to good advantage. So I'm not looking at it as a Law to be followed, but rather a concept for supporting ministry. The Jews were under a mandate to do so and cursed if they didn't. We are under no mandate or curse for not tithing. Yet! There is still blessings when we give.

If you have the ability to do two things, offer 10 percent and then offer it as a free will offering and not a binding law, then that's fine. But don't get caught up in the false notion that you have to buy or earn by giving money to someone to gain His blessings. They're free. Our part is to be obedient to His promptings. I believe when we help the needy that's being merciful. We'll be shown mercy. May not be money especially if we don't need it. He take care of our needs always.

 

[AceMichaels]

I feel the Lord has led me to visit other churches. It has happened in times of question. I have always ended up back at my church and the teaching reaffirmed. I have been amazed at what goes on around here in some of the churches. I'm sure mine isn't the only experience like this

 

[mpaper345]

You got a good point there Yet,and worthy to be observed,because a lot of people go to Church,and believe it is the true Church of Jesus,and go by whatever the preacher tells them,but do not find out for themselves what the Bible says in regard to truth,or do not study it enough,and you will find that a lot will go by what the preacher says as an intepretation,but when you can prove through scriptures beyond a shadow of a doubt that what they believe cannot be correct,they still hold unto that interpretation of the preacher.

Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness(2 Timothy 2:14-16).

God said to study the word,rightly dividing the word of truth,so everybdy has to study the Bible not only the preacher,but of course observation of the different denominations and their different interpretations testifies that we should study the Bible for ourself,for how can we trust them when they cannot all agree on different subjects of the Bible.

One says,there is a resurrection,another there is not.One says there is a millennial reign of Christ,one says there is not.One says the resurrection is pre-trib,another says it is not.

So it is obvious that we have to read the Bible for ourself,and I do not believe all people who claim to be a preacher were actually called to be a preacher.

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so(Acts 17:11).

God said hear what they have to say if they are saying they are relating the word of God to you,but then read the scriptures daily to see if what they said is the truth,and if you do so you are more noble than people who do not check it out.

Of course a lot of this will apply to people that have no or little knowledge of the word,for if you know the Bible well,you can the majority of the time know that they are wrong,for you can put together scriptures in your mind to refute them if they are wrong.

 

[passing_through]

J. Vernon Mcgee was my milk nurse when I was a babe in Christ.

 

[convallaria]

If it makes you feel better, I got the left foot of fellowship twice. On the second one they had secret meetings in the night, they only invited those who agreed with them, they plotted how to destroy me, they brought in false witnesses and tried to tangle me up in words. They then went on to say how they followed the scripture for this meeting. Yep! They sure did follow step by step and exactly what the Pharisees done. I even said what Jesus said,"Show me my sin", and silence fell over the tribunal.

God bless you Russell!

 

[ladylynn]

J. Vernon Mcgee was my milk nurse when I was a babe in Christ.

Ahhh yes good ol J. Vernon McGee., our family listened to him on Christian radio every day at the same time along with Chuck Swindol, James Dobson, John MacGarthur, David Jeremiah. WMHR from PA and a few NY stations. Thank God for Christian radio!

 

[ladylynn]

Hi Ladylynn!

It must be great to have access to such a wonderful, normal gathering of the people of God . Not my experience here unfortunately but that is not to say that I don't long for it!

I am assuming you are not talking about gathering with those with whom we are not to be partakers of their sins...preaching against the Holy Spirit as many seem to want to do...or preaching things according to the flesh and not according to the word of God. There is real danger in hanging out with those guys and there seems to be no shortage of even cultish gatherings springing up everywhere.

We have to take into account individual experience and the clear counsel of God in such things. Sometimes I have overstayed my time in a local fellowship because I was scared to make a move in case I was being disobedient to the Lord. But by and by I received clear direction and confirmation from Him after I have stepped out in faith, because what I was stepping towards in my own heart was a position of better obedience, and a clearer expression of what the Lord has called me to do.

Hi Convallaria, I've experienced a church like that but moved and am looking for a local church again. Like you I long for that kind of church again and it isn't easy. Been through some hard experiences with some churches too and although none were unbiblical, they had overbearing people in them and my husband clashed with them. Strong personalities often have a hard time submitting to one another. People can fight over the nuttiest things such as what color the new cushioned seats for the church should be. Or the songs that should be played. Who should be the choir directer and how the money should be spent. Deacons fighting with deacons., Pastor trying to keep the peace. Strong personalities can ruin a church over such tiny unimportant issues.

As I look back on it, they were issues that were more about what we used to call "the old guard" who didn't want any change vs the new families that had children. clash clash. When it came to doctrine, people usually stood together. Now that I'm older I could care less what color the chairs are or who sings what or if someone insulted me or hurt my feelings. We take ourselves far tooo seriously and have to be big enough to influence by example. Those older Christians we were around as young families were just very immature "old" Christians. But at the time were sooo annoying to our life. We let things get to us. And as I look back made mountains out of mole hills.

But there were some fine loving believers in those churches that were loved by all and you could count on them to always put God first. They never got involved in disputes about seat covers although they were voting members of the church they chose their battles but we hardly saw them in any battle out front in arguing. A few of the members stormed out of meetings with such anger after standing up in a meeting declaring the "biblical" reasons for their choices about this or that and how all should have come to the same conclusions if they were led by God. And then how the pastor would pray for unity and love and that would settle many down.

People are people and as long as we are on this planet people will do the same thing over and over. Human behavior can only be changed and transformed when it submits to the Word and is changed supernaturally by the HolySpirit. And it seems to take time and we have to stick with it as the changes take place from the inside out with each other.

It's hard to look for a church when many of the churches around my area are already established and have families who have been there for years. In many ways I feel like an interloper or something. But gotta keep pressing on and keep looking. I hope you find a church too convallaria. Since God wants us to be in a local fellowship, He will surely make a way and lead us to the right one.