-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
K
To clear the air I am "NOT" against bible college or Seminary school as some good things can be learned from them, just like other sources can be used as well if the Holy Spirit is the one guiding us to use those sources.
We are to test everything including those places that claim to be doing for God, because there have been bad ones as well that teach falsely just like there are churches giving bad doctrine around. This can not be denied !!!
I am sorry some took me as saying all people who go to those places, when I was just pointing out the few who come out and believe they know it all and can not be taught any more from others. I did not call anybody personally out or even belittle another in the process, as all I was trying to do is point out improper attitude by some not all.
We are all brought to the knowledge of Christ in our own ways by the Holy Spirit's guidance, which does not make one more mature then another depending on route they were drawn.
God bless !!!
We are to test everything including those places that claim to be doing for God, because there have been bad ones as well that teach falsely just like there are churches giving bad doctrine around. This can not be denied !!!
I am sorry some took me as saying all people who go to those places, when I was just pointing out the few who come out and believe they know it all and can not be taught any more from others. I did not call anybody personally out or even belittle another in the process, as all I was trying to do is point out improper attitude by some not all.
We are all brought to the knowledge of Christ in our own ways by the Holy Spirit's guidance, which does not make one more mature then another depending on route they were drawn.
God bless !!!
E
I like how you also mention churches in this. There are a few quite large churches that preach unbiblical doctrines. I think sometimes we look at a large church and think they must be really following God's Word but find out that the teaching isn't quite "all there". There is one very popular author who is also the pastor of a very large church. I don't read his books but one day at the book store decided to flip through one of his books and was quite taken back. It was a fairly thick book and I noticed that not a single passage of Scripture was quoted in the book. It was labeled as a Christian book but yet he didn't back up a single thing he said with Scripture.
Sometimes it isn't easy for us to tell the difference between biblical or unbiblical which is why we must rely completely upon the Holy Spirit. One little twist of a word or one addition of a word can change the complete meaning of what someone says.
Sometimes it isn't easy for us to tell the difference between biblical or unbiblical which is why we must rely completely upon the Holy Spirit. One little twist of a word or one addition of a word can change the complete meaning of what someone says.
Over the years, "proof-testing" has pretty much turned me off. I learned years ago that anyone can "prove" anything by selecting a verse to quote.
We do everyone a disservice when we try to make a point by simply using a verse, rather than showing what the "joining" of several verses and passages in the Bible actually teach.
We do everyone a disservice when we try to make a point by simply using a verse, rather than showing what the "joining" of several verses and passages in the Bible actually teach.
K
Exactly which is also why I do not like the exegesis used by some when it comes to scriptures of pulling one particular scripture out of the bible and making it stand alone to build a doctrine or understanding off of.
The reason God's word tells us not to live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4), is because everything has to be read together in context to get the actual meaning. Pulling things out and making them stand alone is bad philosophy when it comes to the bible.
Just like Jesus never said we would escape or be saved from facing persecutions, instead He said just the opposite that they will persecute us because they persecuted Him first (John 15:20) and if they do persecute us to flee to another place (Matthew 10:23).
I don't know how many times I have heard Matthew 10:22 endures to the end to be saved tried to be explained away as saved out of physical persecutions and not speaking on eternal life. However as we can see the following verse 23 refutes that thinking and so does the history and outcome of the original Apostles lives.
E
Both of you have said my thought on "proof testing". When we proof test it should not be by one verse alone. Like you both mention, a single verse can be pulled out of context by reading the verse as a "stand alone" verse. My dad told me that before you quote just one verse read at least the paragraph before and the paragraph after so you can understand the context in which it is written. I feel it is ok to just quote one verse but only, and only, if we understand the context of the verse and if we have "parallel" verses in which we can also use for a "defense" of our argument. If we follow a particular doctrine then that doctrine best be backed up by more than one verse that "prove" that doctrine to be true. The doctrines given us by God with which we are to follow He repeats more than once in Scripture. We must also understand that there is a difference between the OT and the NT. Some of the things given in the OT do not pertain to the New Covenant. But in the same sense we are to obey certain laws which were given us in the OT. For example the Ten Commandments haven't changed but certain other laws do not pertain to the New Covenant. God's moral laws never change but many of the social laws have, which do not pertain to the New Covenant. Good exegesis requires good study and good study depends on the Holy Spirit for guidance.
Oooookk..... let's look....
Now, she says both the Holy Spirit & the Word guides her in all the truth. So I should believe you & her that the Bible & the Holy Ghost led her to say these things:
1. She call people ignorant purposely. Check the context of this post.
2. Angela judges her to be stuck in an "experience only, anything goes" person.
3. Another judgement call. I remember convalleria saying distinctly that the Holy Spirit led her when she was a young christian & later when she read the scriptures, she discovered the Word confirmed what the Holy Spirit showed her.
4. These two statements remind me of a scripture, especially in the context of her post:
Luke 18:9-14 (KJV) [SUP]9 [/SUP]And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: [SUP]10 [/SUP]Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
5. EVERY pentecostal & charismatic believes they receive the Holy Spirit at salvation. Another judgement call.
6. HOW can anyone separate spiritual fruit & good works? ALL the things she mentions above that are both spiritual fruit & good works. They are one & the same.
7. Accuses convallera of jumping up and down, rolling in the aisles, babbling nonsense and edifying yourself, instead of glorifying God., Major judgement call, stereotyping, & mocking.
8. Angela judges AGAIN that convalleria has an ignorant arrogance, thinks she's spiritually above others, & that she dances in the isles & feels "spiritual shivers".
HOW is that running with the Father, Son, & Holy Ghost? This is blasphemy, but I doubt you intended it to be so.
However, when Angela claims it with these fruits of hers, it is blasphemy.
Now, she says both the Holy Spirit & the Word guides her in all the truth. So I should believe you & her that the Bible & the Holy Ghost led her to say these things:
1. She call people ignorant purposely. Check the context of this post.
2. Angela judges her to be stuck in an "experience only, anything goes" person.
3. Another judgement call. I remember convalleria saying distinctly that the Holy Spirit led her when she was a young christian & later when she read the scriptures, she discovered the Word confirmed what the Holy Spirit showed her.
4. These two statements remind me of a scripture, especially in the context of her post:
Luke 18:9-14 (KJV) [SUP]9 [/SUP]And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: [SUP]10 [/SUP]Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
5. EVERY pentecostal & charismatic believes they receive the Holy Spirit at salvation. Another judgement call.
6. HOW can anyone separate spiritual fruit & good works? ALL the things she mentions above that are both spiritual fruit & good works. They are one & the same.
7. Accuses convallera of jumping up and down, rolling in the aisles, babbling nonsense and edifying yourself, instead of glorifying God., Major judgement call, stereotyping, & mocking.
8. Angela judges AGAIN that convalleria has an ignorant arrogance, thinks she's spiritually above others, & that she dances in the isles & feels "spiritual shivers".
HOW is that running with the Father, Son, & Holy Ghost? This is blasphemy, but I doubt you intended it to be so.
However, when Angela claims it with these fruits of hers, it is blasphemy.
E
KennethC does bring up quite a good point about Seminary. Just because someone has a degree does not always mean they are correct. And also just because we might have a degree from seminary does not mean we should "lord" it over others. If anything having a degree from a seminary should teach us humility as having done all that "schooling" we should realize how little we really know about God. We still need to test all teaching with God's Word and not by just one verse either.
I apologise, I only just found your testimony so thank you!
What I would say is that much accords with my own experience as to how I KNOW I had received the Holy Spirit. But then later I experienced the BAPTISM with the Holy Spirit, very different, very powerful, very personal.....and it was undeniably total immersion in the Holy Spirit, He in me; me in Him. I feel that you haven't experienced this like others on here but that doesn't mean you won't experience it at some point. Be ready and hope, because it will transform you totally according to God's will. Never rule God out of your developing experience.
What I would say is that much accords with my own experience as to how I KNOW I had received the Holy Spirit. But then later I experienced the BAPTISM with the Holy Spirit, very different, very powerful, very personal.....and it was undeniably total immersion in the Holy Spirit, He in me; me in Him. I feel that you haven't experienced this like others on here but that doesn't mean you won't experience it at some point. Be ready and hope, because it will transform you totally according to God's will. Never rule God out of your developing experience.
This is the kind of transformation that I believe in. And all those emotional "experiences" I had in Pentecostal Churches do not compare to the work God has been doing in my life, esp. in the last 15 years or so. Including pain and suffering, which the Bible says is what shapes our character.
"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."Romans 12:2
The word "transformed" in the Greek is metamorpheo. It is in the passive imperative. It means it is a work God does to us, and we are commanded to allow it to happen. It is the same word used in 2 Cor. 3:18 and when Jesus was transfigured on the mountain.
It clearly says that our MINDS need to be renewed. Renewed in what? We are renewed through the Holy Spirit, especially in the study and meditation on the Word.
No experience needed. No thinking that you have something more and better than other Christians, who are missing out on a subjective experience.
"More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope. And hope does not disappoint, because God's love has been poured out through the Holy Spirit who was given to us." Romans 5:3-5
There is no ONE single event, other than salvation that transforms our lives and walk with Christ. Instead, it is the steady, daily journey with Christ, renewing our minds through the Word, and allowing the Holy Spirit to work the changes we all need.
"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."Romans 12:2
The word "transformed" in the Greek is metamorpheo. It is in the passive imperative. It means it is a work God does to us, and we are commanded to allow it to happen. It is the same word used in 2 Cor. 3:18 and when Jesus was transfigured on the mountain.
It clearly says that our MINDS need to be renewed. Renewed in what? We are renewed through the Holy Spirit, especially in the study and meditation on the Word.
No experience needed. No thinking that you have something more and better than other Christians, who are missing out on a subjective experience.
"More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope. And hope does not disappoint, because God's love has been poured out through the Holy Spirit who was given to us." Romans 5:3-5
There is no ONE single event, other than salvation that transforms our lives and walk with Christ. Instead, it is the steady, daily journey with Christ, renewing our minds through the Word, and allowing the Holy Spirit to work the changes we all need.
It has been my experience that those I've been in contact with who went to seminary did so to increase themselves, but that doesn't happen. Let me explain. For a pastor, there's little in seminary that will prepare him because you're either called to preach or you're not. It WILL help in gathering biblical knowledge, such as Greek & Hebrew, but that knowledge won't make one a better preacher. In fact, some come out with their degrees thinking they can win the world for Christ only to need taking down a few notches for pride & arrogance.
1 Corinthians 8:1 (NASB) Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies.
1 Corinthians 8:1 (NLT) Now regarding your question about food that has been offered to idols. Yes, we know that “we all have knowledge” about this issue. But while knowledge makes us feel important, it is love that strengthens the church.
You see, the real training preachers need is how to truly love people & increase in maturity in their relationship with Christ. God does the rest. He who calls ... equips... for that calling. Therefore the most important things we need to minister at any level cannot be found at seminary.
1 Corinthians 8:1 (NASB) Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies.
1 Corinthians 8:1 (NLT) Now regarding your question about food that has been offered to idols. Yes, we know that “we all have knowledge” about this issue. But while knowledge makes us feel important, it is love that strengthens the church.
You see, the real training preachers need is how to truly love people & increase in maturity in their relationship with Christ. God does the rest. He who calls ... equips... for that calling. Therefore the most important things we need to minister at any level cannot be found at seminary.
Hmm, Stephen. I learned counseling skills and had courses on just praying together, which changed my prayer life. I learned about Christian meditation. I did take preaching, realized I am more of a teacher. Got a pass on the teaching course because of my teacher's certificate and 25 years of teaching. (When I saw preparing lesson plans in the syllabus, I freaked and got an exemption - I've done way too many of those, both in school and in Sunday School)
I learned hermeneutics, which is fundamental to my interpreting the Bible. You know, context, genre, history. Things that a lot of people in this forum miss.
I took a course in Conflict Resolution which totally changed my life. I learned to be honest and transparent, when I found out I wasn't going to be kicked out of Seminary for not being perfect. What a revelation! (Christians are not perfect!)
I learned about history, geography, ancient times. I learned how to prepare a powerpoint presentation. OK, not so Biblical but it has really helped me.
I learned how to write better, to defend women in ministry. I learned about the length and breadth of Christian theology, but was told to read the Bible for myself, and see what God was saying to me about the different "ologies."
I just see so much bitterness and resentment towards Seminary graduates in various threads lately.
Oh yes, I learned to put away all bitterness and slander. But not to be afraid to confront people in love about their poor exegesis of Biblical texts, and the false doctines resulting thereof.
"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice." Eph. 4:31
And of course, a life long love (well, the rest of my life) love of Greek and Hebrew. And these are just off the top of my head. Give me a bit longer, and I could probably write 10 posts about this topic.
I learned hermeneutics, which is fundamental to my interpreting the Bible. You know, context, genre, history. Things that a lot of people in this forum miss.
I took a course in Conflict Resolution which totally changed my life. I learned to be honest and transparent, when I found out I wasn't going to be kicked out of Seminary for not being perfect. What a revelation! (Christians are not perfect!)
I learned about history, geography, ancient times. I learned how to prepare a powerpoint presentation. OK, not so Biblical but it has really helped me.
I learned how to write better, to defend women in ministry. I learned about the length and breadth of Christian theology, but was told to read the Bible for myself, and see what God was saying to me about the different "ologies."
I just see so much bitterness and resentment towards Seminary graduates in various threads lately.
Oh yes, I learned to put away all bitterness and slander. But not to be afraid to confront people in love about their poor exegesis of Biblical texts, and the false doctines resulting thereof.
"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice." Eph. 4:31
And of course, a life long love (well, the rest of my life) love of Greek and Hebrew. And these are just off the top of my head. Give me a bit longer, and I could probably write 10 posts about this topic.
E
I have to dasagree about Seminary. Seminary does a lot more than just teach the "ancient" languages. And knowing the "ancient" languages can help in teaching.
Of course those called to teach by God will do a better "job" but we cannot just disregaurd Seminary because there are a few "bad" pastors. Should we disregaurd Churches in general because there are a few "bad" churches? Should we disregaurd "others" writings because there are a few "bad" writers? Seminary is not about "what someone else wrote" but about learning more about God's Word and how to preach God's Word affectively.
Angela is correct in that lately there has been quite an "attack" against Seminaries here. Even within those who have not attended Seminary there are those who "think highly" about themselves. So to narrow this whole "pride" thing down to just Seminary students is to ignore the fact that pride is a "creature" thing not a Seminary thing. The very first sin against God was done by a "creation" who was the number one Angel at the time...satan..and that sin was pride. So does the "pride" come from Seminary or does the "pride" come from within the person whether they have attended Seminary or not.
Of course those called to teach by God will do a better "job" but we cannot just disregaurd Seminary because there are a few "bad" pastors. Should we disregaurd Churches in general because there are a few "bad" churches? Should we disregaurd "others" writings because there are a few "bad" writers? Seminary is not about "what someone else wrote" but about learning more about God's Word and how to preach God's Word affectively.
Angela is correct in that lately there has been quite an "attack" against Seminaries here. Even within those who have not attended Seminary there are those who "think highly" about themselves. So to narrow this whole "pride" thing down to just Seminary students is to ignore the fact that pride is a "creature" thing not a Seminary thing. The very first sin against God was done by a "creation" who was the number one Angel at the time...satan..and that sin was pride. So does the "pride" come from Seminary or does the "pride" come from within the person whether they have attended Seminary or not.
Amen I totally agree.
The love of God is a powerful thing. It doesn't tell lies or run around agreeing with people for fear of upsetting them. It tells them the truth they need to know regardless of the outcome. The eagle eye of God sees right through all the posturing and swishing about in religious garments, and identifies the thinness of their message as false.
What many on here do not realize is they cannot minister the word of God without the unction of God, because if they do, they are just repeating verses according to their own fleshly religious understanding....and not ministering to the heart that the Lord wishes to touch. They might as well force-feed cardboard to paste inappriopriate verses expecting people to feed on them, and to believe they are doing so by the Spirit.
Thanks Stephen.
The love of God is a powerful thing. It doesn't tell lies or run around agreeing with people for fear of upsetting them. It tells them the truth they need to know regardless of the outcome. The eagle eye of God sees right through all the posturing and swishing about in religious garments, and identifies the thinness of their message as false.
What many on here do not realize is they cannot minister the word of God without the unction of God, because if they do, they are just repeating verses according to their own fleshly religious understanding....and not ministering to the heart that the Lord wishes to touch. They might as well force-feed cardboard to paste inappriopriate verses expecting people to feed on them, and to believe they are doing so by the Spirit.
Thanks Stephen.