Faith without works is dead

sydlit · Sep 1, 2015

Then they said unto Him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that you BELIEVE on Him whom He hath sent.

Great question, senzi. It looks like you've got it. It looks like the answer is One. Believe.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that BELIEVES on me HAS eternal life.

*John6:28,29,47*
................................(and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God)...............................

mailmandan · Sep 2, 2015

senzi said:

Exactly! How many works must we accomplish and add as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us? Those who trust in works for salvation never seem to have a definite answer.

PeacefulWarrior · Sep 2, 2015

senzi said:

I agree and I also agree with those who have already answered.

Is that an air force flag, by the way?

sydlit · Sep 2, 2015

PeacefulWarrior said:

Senzi is from zimbabwe. How cool is that, how cool is our God who brings brothers and sisters from all over the globe to talk about Jesus and encourage each other in the faith. Way cool God and Saviour. Is thereany like Him? (Yea, I know not any)

Thank you, Lord Jesus. Thanks cchat (pls fix notifications?)

plaintalk · Sep 2, 2015

What is the one baptism? (Eph. 4: 5)
The Scriptures speak of several baptisms: the baptism of Israel unto Moses (1 Cor. 10: 1, 2), the baptism of John the Baptist (Mk. 1: 4, 5), the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Mt. 3: 11; Mk. 1: 8; Lk 3: 16), John 1: 33; Acts 1: 5), the baptism of fire (judgment) (Lk. 3: 16; Mt. 3: 11), the baptism of suffering (Mt 20: 20- 33; Lk 12: 50) and the baptism of the Great Commission (Mt. 28: 18-20; Mk. 16: 15, 16). Some would add: the metaphorical baptism of Noah (1 Pet. 3: 20) and the baptism of Christ (Mt. 3: 16, 17) Most hold that the one baptism is the baptism with the Holy Spirit or the baptism of the Great Commission. The baptism of the Great commission was authorized by Christ for all the nations, for every person in the world making it impossible to discount this baptism. On the other hand the promise of the baptism with the Holy Spirit was made to multitudes of Jews and to the Apostles; in addition Cornelius and his household received the baptism with the Spirit, indicating IMO that all Gentiles who come to Christ, would also receive this baptism. Then we have Paul’s statement that we all, by (in or with) one Spirit were baptized into the one body (1 Cor. 12: 13), making it very difficult to discount this baptism also. What is the answer? IMO the answer is found in the parallelism between the one spiritual birth (John 3: 3-5) and the one baptism. There is one spiritual birth from two elements, water and the Spirit; similarly there is one baptism into two elements, water and the Spirit. This is supported by the common sense logic; we can’t be born of an element unless we have first been placed or immersed in that element. We must be born of both water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. God bless.

seed_time_harvest · Sep 2, 2015

mailmandan said:

Yes, and the Scriptures also say: John 4:10 - If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water. John 4:14 - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. John 7:37 - If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit.. (source of living water). *Plain ordinary H20 has no power to cause spiritual cleansing and is not the source of becoming born again. 1 Corinthians 12:13 - ..drink into one Spirit. *You are looking to the wrong water for spiritual cleansing.

Only according to your biased interpretation. You are unable to see anything beyond your CoC indoctrination. For the umpteenth time, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical.

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) had been poured out on the Gentiles also (BEFORE WATER BAPTISM). 47 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God -(spiritual gift that is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12). Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43?

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, (BEFORE WATER BAPTISM - compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?

Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). *Perfect Harmony*

Yes, he received the gift of the Holy Spirit and was baptized by ONE SPIRIT into one body (Spirit baptism) when he believed on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 11:17) BEFORE WATER BAPTISM (Acts 10:43-47). *It doesn't get any clearer than this.

That statement is the epitome of irony.

Who do you think you are fooling with your CoC agenda?

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to mailmandan again.

mailmandan · Sep 2, 2015

plaintalk said:

There is only ONE baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is SPIRIT baptism, not water baptism.

Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one SPIRIT we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

You need to disregard your church of Christ indoctrination and seriously consider the truth. Plain ordinary H20 has no power to cause us to become born again. That is common sense. What is the "water" that Jesus connects with being born again and receiving everlasting life?

John 4:10 - Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."

John 4:14 - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Compare with 1 Corinthians 12:13 - ..drink into one Spirit. *Jesus connects this water with everlasting life and living water is not water baptism.

seed_time_harvest · Sep 2, 2015

I hope plain truth will be accepted by plain talk.

plaintalk · Sep 3, 2015

Does baptism in water symbolize the baptism with the Holy Spirit? IMO baptism in water does not symbolize the baptism with the Holy Spirit for a number of reasons although they do complement one another. First. “water” is a physical entity, the Spirit is not physical. Second, to be baptized in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of sin, in water, is a command while baptism with the Spirit is a promise. Third, each one has its own significance which differs greatly in most aspects although they do complement one another. Fourth, for baptism in water to symbolize, baptism in the Spirit, two separate, distinct baptisms would have to exist, yet Paul said there is only one baptism that pertains directly to salvation and eternal life. Do passages such as Rom. 6: 1-7; Gal. 3: 26, 27 and Col. 2: 11- 15 refer to the baptism with the Holy Spirit or to the water element of the one baptism? Both the baptism of John, in water, and the baptism in the name of Christ, in water, were about confession of sin, repentance and forgiveness of sin; John’s baptism was a symbol of baptism in the name of Christ, in water, and was to prepare the Jews for the coming of the righteous One. Any uncertainties and ambiguities of the Jewish purification by the washing with water are put aside; baptism in water means the immersion of the whole person. But in addition those passages that were referenced are about death, burial and resurrection while the baptism with the Spirit is about life, regeneration and renewal. They do share the common denominator of baptism into Christ and the one body. God bless.

KennethC · Sep 3, 2015

mailmandan said:

Here we go again trying to state the obvious and even using scriptures, and you even highlight parts yet overlook the meaning in your responses.

Let me show you by color coding the two verses from Acts 2:38 and Acts 3:19 to show how they say the same thing of both repentance and baptism in Christ (immersed in water) to receive the remission of sins.

Same color shows what corresponds to one another:

(Acts 2:38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(Acts 3:19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Being converted is being baptized in the name of the Lord, and we know this by Matthew 28:19;

(Matthew 28:19) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

We are made disciples (sons and daughters) of Christ by being baptized in His name, which here is the Greek word Baptizo that stands for immersion in water.

mailmandan · Sep 3, 2015

seed_time_harvest said:

Unfortunately, plain talk is unable to see anything beyond his church of Christ indoctrination.

eternally-gratefull · Sep 3, 2015

I am sure it has been said before. But faith without works IS DEAD (ie it is not real faith)

question? Can a false faith save a person? No.

so since a person was never saved, it is logical that they (since they have never been given the HS to empower them) would never work.

shotgunner · Sep 3, 2015

KennethC said:

Here we go again trying to state the obvious and even using scriptures, and you even highlight parts yet overlook the meaning in your responses.

Let me show you by color coding the two verses from Acts 2:38 and Acts 3:19 to show how they say the same thing of both repentance and baptism in Christ (immersed in water) to receive the remission of sins.

Same color shows what corresponds to one another:

(Acts 2:38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(Acts 3:19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Being converted is being baptized in the name of the Lord, and we know this by Matthew 28:19;

(Matthew 28:19) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

We are made disciples (sons and daughters) of Christ by being baptized in His name, which here is the Greek word Baptizo that stands for immersion in water.

Why does it have to be in water? Why can't it be what it really is which is in Christ. Baptism in Christ saves. Baptism in water gets you wet.

Everyone who is baptized in Christ should be baptized in water but only as a sign and seal of their baptism in Christ.

senzi · Sep 4, 2015

KennethC said:

A person is powerfully convicted by the holy spirit of their sin and the need to cone to Christ. They sink to their knees, tears streaming down their cheeks and cry out God to forgive the their sins, and they ask Christ into their life as lord and saviour of it.
How will God respond?
Will he say:
I will forgive you, but not yet, only when you have been baptised in water.

Doesn't sound right to me

TMS · Sep 4, 2015

senzi said:

Baptism is meant to be a one off thing, An outward way of saying "i have chosen to be born again" (converted, died to the old life and reborn in the spirit), The spiritual process may not have taken place at that exact time but it's an opportunity to express your faith publicly. Like a wedding you are making your love official. God knows what's in your heart and if you love someone you are happy to obey.

TMS · Sep 4, 2015

Faith and Works
if only people stopped trying to separate or balancing them.
Satan will try to get us to believe in anything that is wrong and we can search for a place somewhere between free grace (Calvinism "God does everything") or humanism ("man does everything") but we will still miss the truth. Righteousness by faith is what we need to study and understand. It's not righteous works verses faith or 70% faith and 30% works. Righteousness by Faith. justification = 100% righteous, Faith in Jesus to transform you into His righteous image = sanctification. Rom_10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Stop looking at yourself and look at Jesus and you'll start to become like Him.

mailmandan · Sep 4, 2015

KennethC said:

It's you who overlooks the obvious and you even redefine the meaning of these scriptures (Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31) in your desperate attempt to get around the truth and accommodate your biased theology.

That is absolutely false. In Acts 3:19, Peter makes no reference to baptism, but links forgiveness of sins to repentance. So does Luke in Luke 24:47 - and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. In Mark 1:15, we read repent and believe the gospel. Converted is not baptism just as believe the gospel is not baptism. If you truly believed the gospel then you would understand this.

Notice that Peter did not say repent and be baptized and be converted in Acts 3:19. Repentance is clearly linked with the remission of sins, not baptism. So once again, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical.

In Matthew 3:11, we read - I baptize you with water "for" repentance.. Is this baptism for "in order to obtain" repentance or for "in regards to/on the basis of" repentance? The answer is obvious. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not. My view is decidedly against the idea that Peter, Paul, or any one in the New Testament taught baptism as essential to the remission of sins or the means of securing such remission. So I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received. Amen!

Repentance > change of mind > new direction of this change of mind > faith in Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. In Acts 10:43 we clearly read - ..whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47). Placing faith in Jesus Christ for salvation constitutes "believes in Him" which takes place BEFORE water baptism. Discussing the event that took place in Acts 10, we read in Acts 11:17 that they received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ which was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). This was repentance unto life (Acts 11:18). Acts 16:31 clearly states - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and get water baptized and you will be saved. *The truth is crystal clear.

Absolutely false. You are just as confused as plain talk is about water baptism. In Matthew 28:19-20, we have a command of Christ to go and make disciples of all nations, and then baptize them. However, it does not say here that baptism is what magically makes them become disciples or that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. Becoming a disciple of Jesus is a heart decision made prior to getting water baptized. If Jesus taught that water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, then why did He not mention it in these 9 verses? - (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions in each of these verses that He links to receiving eternal life? - BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. Just in case you are thinking, "what happened to repentance?" Jesus did not need to spell out repentance here in these 9 different verses because those who BELIEVE have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to BELIEVE. Repentance and faith/belief are inseparable in receiving salvation. Not so with baptism. You can repent and believe the gospel BUT NOT YET BE WATER BAPTIZED (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18).

A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. Consider the following conversation:
Q. Are you married?
A. Yes, I am married; see, I’m wearing this ring.
Q. What does the ring signify?
A. It means that I gave my consent to my wife and, therefore, I am united to her. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents. He is married because he wears a marriage ring.

It's the same with baptism. It signifies that I have been buried with Christ and also raised up with Him through faith and, therefore, I am united to Him.

Baptism is like the receiving of rings as tokens of the covenant. The rings, like baptism, is not what actually unites the hearts of two people, but is the formal acknowledgment of it. The ring is not what causes the change in our marital status and neither does water baptism cause the change in our spiritual status, yet during the wedding ceremony, vows are exchanged, "with this ring I thee wed." The symbol is used as the picture of the reality, just as in baptism.

plaintalk · Sep 4, 2015

Does “obedience” or “works” by themselves indicate a legalistic approach? Some would answer this question affirmatively, but is it true? What does having a legalistic approach mean? The law is based upon this principle, “He who practices them shall live by them.” (Gal. 3: 12) The law is not of faith. “Works of faith” and the “obedience of faith” are by definition “of faith” and are not based on the legal principle that Paul quotes in Gal. 3: 12). Works of faith and the obedience of faith are not performed to make the performer righteous on the basis of their performance. Why then are they performed? James tells us they are done to perfect our faith. (James 2: 14- 26) They point back to faith and it is by this perfected faith that God imputes righteousness. The just shall live by faith! Praise God! The other common misunderstanding is the claim that one can have a positive relationship with God through faith alone. The Apostle Paul tells us that those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel await the judgment of eternal destruction. What does knowing God mean? By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.[SUP]4 [/SUP]The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; [SUP]5 [/SUP]but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: (1 John 2: 3-5) Again: [SUP]8 [/SUP]The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. (1 John 4: 8) In order to say that we know God, we must love Him and keep his commandments. Faith is essential to any relationship with God but faith without love is nothing (1 Cor. 12: 2) and faith without works (of faith) is dead and useless. (James 2: 17, 20, 26) Can works of faith and the obedience of faith be perverted to a legalistic approach? Of course, that is why we must constantly be on guard. God bless

JesusName1 · Sep 4, 2015

Satan keeps so many of you bickering over such small things. Psalms 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. After you repent then you are to be baptized in JESUS name Acts 2:38. Then you will receive the gift of the holy ghost. You can also receive the holy ghost before water baptism. The most important thing... I say again THE MOST IMPORTANT THING is what Jesus said: Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mindwrencher · Sep 4, 2015

Will the Holy Spirit only empower those who are saved? How about our Father? Will He only empower the saved?
Many have referred to the salvation of Cornelius and the fact that the Holy Spirit empowered him before "water baptism" as some kind of affirmation of his salvation.

This would carry a LOT of weight with me if it weren't for Balaam's donkey. If we could just shut that donkey up, I would be impressed by Cornelius and his crowd. But if God can empower a donkey to speak, His empowerment means nothing regarding "salvation".

And also 1 Sam 10:9-12: "9 Then it happened when he turned his back to leave Samuel, God changed[e]his heart; and all those signs came about on that day. 10 When they came to[f]the hill there, behold, a group of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him mightily, so that he prophesied among them. 11 It came about, when all who knew him previously saw that he prophesied now with the prophets, that the people said to one another, “What has happened to the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?” 12 A man there said, “Now, who is their father?” Therefore it became a proverb: “Is Saul also among the prophets?” (NASB)

We know from the life of Saul that he was nothing like a prophet, yet the Holy Spirit "came upon him" and he prophesied mightily.

The conversion of Cornelius has the Holy Spirit, once again, "coming upon" people for the event to occur.

The Spirit of God does many things. He transports Philip to the Ethiopian eunuch. He "falls upon" others. He "empowered" Samson:

The Spirit of the Lord came powerfully upon him … Judges 14:6, NIV
The Spirit of the Lord came upon him mightily [text note: lit., rushed upon him] … Judges 14:6, NAS

He "came on" Gideon, and "clothed" Gideon:

Then the Spirit of the Lord came on Gideon. Judges 6:34, NIV
But the Spirit of the Lord clothed Gideon. Judges 6:34, ESV

Despite these occurrences in which the Spirit acts, He does not "indwell them". And it is this "indwelling" one MUST have in order to belong to God (Rom 8:9: "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you, But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.")

So regardless of whether it is "faith", "repentence", "confession", "baptism in water", "the sinner's prayer" or any other thing, it is only that "thing" which grants us the "indwelling" that really matters.

Galatians 4:6Verse Concepts

"Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!'..."

It is God who puts the Spirit in us...because we are sons. Well, how do we become sons of God?

Galatians 3: 26-29: "26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,
27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

We become sons through faith in Jesus. If we have been baptized, NOT into the Holy Spirit, but rather into Christ, we have clothed ourselves with Him.

So, is the donning of this "clothing" that which makes us sons of God?

I have wearied myself with "the Moment of Salvation" speaking with my Baptist and Methodist friends. I always ask them the same questions. They say one can do no work in regard to his/her salvation. So I ask them if "confessing" their belief is necessary for salvation, because confession is something one DOES. And do they have to say a "sinner's prayer", because that is also something that one DOES.

In their minds, they group all things someone DOES, under the heading of "Faith" , thinking that solves the problems of regarding "Prayer" and "Confession" as WORK.

Let me put it like this:

Let's say a man is baptized. What does he deserve in regards to salvation?
Answer: NOTHING. He deserves to die.
OK then, let us say that he confesses his belief in Jesus, what does he deserve?
Answer: NOTHING. He deserves to die.
Now let's say he believes in Jesus with all his heart, soul and mind. What does he deserve now?
Answer: NOTHING. He still deserves to die, because there is not one thing a man can do to MERIT SALVATION.

Jesus Himself described "Faith in Him" as a work of God that can be DONE. (John 6:28-29: "
28Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" 29Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." (emphasis mine)

So even belief is a WORK.

Faith without works is dead

sydlit

Guest

Senior Member

PeacefulWarrior

Guest

sydlit

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

KennethC

Guest

Senior Member

eternally-gratefull

Guest

shotgunner

Guest

senzi

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

JesusName1

Guest

Member