What does forgive look like when there is no trust?

[atwhatcost]

Over a decade ago, one of my brothers did something completely unforgivable to us. I'm not big on crying, but what he did caused me two hours of crying and I was crying all the time I was talking to him on the phone for those two hours. It was more what he didn't do after he got me crying that long that is unforgivable. (I asked a huge favor, he called to get the details, and then completely ignored my request.)

A few years later, Dad was diagnosed with dementia. We all understood that Dad would never be able to handle dissension among his kids, so that same brother called and said, "I have no idea what you have against me, but I'm sorry for whatever I did. I just feel like you're angry with me for some reason, but now we have to stick together for Dad."

(BTW, he was basing that on I never called him. I didn't. I also never called him before that. I'm not much of a caller, so I don't call anyone unless there's an important enough reason to call someone. I snail-mailed letters to family on occasion. Since stuff was happening by that time, I gave up snail-mailing years before. He never called me either, except that time when I wrote him, and then he called to get the details. The time he had me crying for two hours on the phone. It's rare when I hear from any of my siblings, and I don't hold that against anyone. None of us are much into calling. lol)

Not much of an apology, and, although I forgave him, he apparently has no idea what I forgave him for.

One thing for sure, there is no way I will ever trust him again. I mean, if he ever needed help, I'd give him all I could, but I trust him as far as I can spit. (I can't get spit off my chin, so I don't spit. lol)

So, BIBLICAL question, (as in I don't want mere opinion, I want it backed up with scripture): As Christians, what are we supposed to do with situations like this?

 

[Dino246]

Forgiveness isn't solely between you and your brother, it's between you and God also, and I mean that in both senses... the forgiveness you withhold stands as a barrier between you and God; Mk 11:25: "And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive your sins." Also, consider the parable of the unmerciful servant in Matthew 18.

Forgiving your brother does not mean reconciling with him or trusting him; those are distinct concepts. Trust is earned, so if and when your brother proves himself consistently trustworthy, only then trust him. Forgiving is releasing and relinquishing vengeance and resentment to God and freeing Him to be Judge. It is not saying the wrong did not occur, or that it wasn't a wrong, or that it didn't hurt. Forgiving is not forgetting or sweeping the matter under the rug. Rather it is choosing to consider their sin paid for in full on the Cross, and choosing to interact with that person as though you are truly healed of the wound they caused you, though a scar may remain.

Just as repenting is not merely saying, "I'm sorry", so forgiving is not merely saying, "It's okay." Also, forgiving is not dependent on him apologizing or repenting; God forgave us before we repented! In contrast though, not forgiving and still holding on to resentment about the issue is like you drinking poison and expecting your brother to get sick.

If you would like to restore the relationship with your brother, then you might consider telling him what he did which hurt you, or perhaps telling him that some actions of his hurt you, and to seek God's input on the matter.

As an aside, your brother saying to you, "Now we have to stick together for Dad" is manipulation.

Blessings, Lynn; I sincerely hope you are able to reconcile, but I'll appreciate you anyway if you don't.

 

[Jeshuvan]

you got your answer from mark 11:25

 

[GodIsSalvation]

What do you feel be best for your father?

 

[maxwel]

Forgiveness isn't solely between you and your brother, it's between you and God also, and I mean that in both senses... the forgiveness you withhold stands as a barrier between you and God; Mk 11:25: "And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive your sins." Also, consider the parable of the unmerciful servant in Matthew 18.

Forgiving your brother does not mean reconciling with him or trusting him; those are distinct concepts. Trust is earned, so if and when your brother proves himself consistently trustworthy, only then trust him. Forgiving is releasing and relinquishing vengeance and resentment to God and freeing Him to be Judge. It is not saying the wrong did not occur, or that it wasn't a wrong, or that it didn't hurt. Forgiving is not forgetting or sweeping the matter under the rug. Rather it is choosing to consider their sin paid for in full on the Cross, and choosing to interact with that person as though you are truly healed of the wound they caused you, though a scar may remain.

Just as repenting is not merely saying, "I'm sorry", so forgiving is not merely saying, "It's okay." Also, forgiving is not dependent on him apologizing or repenting; God forgave us before we repented! In contrast though, not forgiving and still holding on to resentment about the issue is like you drinking poison and expecting your brother to get sick.

If you would like to restore the relationship with your brother, then you might consider telling him what he did which hurt you, or perhaps telling him that some actions of his hurt you, and to seek God's input on the matter.

As an aside, your brother saying to you, "Now we have to stick together for Dad" is manipulation.

Blessings, Lynn; I sincerely hope you are able to reconcile, but I'll appreciate you anyway if you don't.

I agree with Dino's post.


If my dog bites me when I walk too close to his bowl,
I may forgive him...
but I WON'T stand around his bowl waiting for him to bite me again.

 

[BarlyGurl]

You are NOT required to trust him. There is plenty of scripture to back that up.

WE are supposed to be wise as serpents but gentle as doves... Matt. 10:15...by your OP, I think your "position" is right and scripturally founded.

 

[NewWine]

Hi lynn, You admittidly love him, and love covers a multitude of sins (1Peter 4:8 Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.) So you have forgiven him as Christ forgave you. (Ephesians 4:23 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.)

But Lack of trust stems from fear....... fear of being hurt by him again.....but there is no room in Love for fear. (1John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.)

To truly trust him fully may be impossible here on Earth, as each of walks our own path here. However, we can trust in God to provide us with wisdom, guidance and peace in all our decisions, (Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with all of your heart and lean not upon your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.) as well as to take any hurt done to us and turn it into blessings for many. (Genesis 50:20 You intended to hurt me, But God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives).
So regardless if you ever fully trust him or not, as long as you trust God to guide your ways, your path will stay straight concerning your brother.
Peace

 

[atwhatcost]

Forgiveness isn't solely between you and your brother, it's between you and God also, and I mean that in both senses... the forgiveness you withhold stands as a barrier between you and God; Mk 11:25: "And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive your sins." Also, consider the parable of the unmerciful servant in Matthew 18.

Forgiving your brother does not mean reconciling with him or trusting him; those are distinct concepts. Trust is earned, so if and when your brother proves himself consistently trustworthy, only then trust him. Forgiving is releasing and relinquishing vengeance and resentment to God and freeing Him to be Judge. It is not saying the wrong did not occur, or that it wasn't a wrong, or that it didn't hurt. Forgiving is not forgetting or sweeping the matter under the rug. Rather it is choosing to consider their sin paid for in full on the Cross, and choosing to interact with that person as though you are truly healed of the wound they caused you, though a scar may remain.

Just as repenting is not merely saying, "I'm sorry", so forgiving is not merely saying, "It's okay." Also, forgiving is not dependent on him apologizing or repenting; God forgave us before we repented! In contrast though, not forgiving and still holding on to resentment about the issue is like you drinking poison and expecting your brother to get sick.

If you would like to restore the relationship with your brother, then you might consider telling him what he did which hurt you, or perhaps telling him that some actions of his hurt you, and to seek God's input on the matter.

As an aside, your brother saying to you, "Now we have to stick together for Dad" is manipulation.

Blessings, Lynn; I sincerely hope you are able to reconcile, but I'll appreciate you anyway if you don't.

So far, (and I really do pray this changes), he's an atheist. So far, what he did hasn't been forgiven by God either -- nor any of his other sins. Does that change anything?

That's part of the reason I don't trust him. I could, if God changed him. (And I know everyone lets us down eventually. Not that kind of "don't trust him.")

As for manipulating, yeah maybe, but it has come to the point when all six kids have to give Dad the same message, because the biggest problem with dementia is the one thing people with it have in common is they seriously can't tell anything is wrong. Each one of us runs down all that has drastically gone wrong (setting his wood pile on fire and watching it burn, going for a haircut on a day the place doesn't do haircuts and being picked up 13 hours later by the cops for being so incredibly lost when hes only two miles from home) and his response is still the same, "Says who?" He needs to go into supportive care, but he has no idea he needs that, except he does because he's fighting it. So, whether my brother was manipulating isn't so much a problem as what he said is the truth.

 

[atwhatcost]

you got your answer from mark 11:25

I've forgiven. I've forgiven often the same thing because it still really bothers me. Kind of why I'm asking what it looks like. God reconciled me to him. He did all that effort in a flash. Bro is the opposite of that. He's still bro. Thus my frustration.

 

[atwhatcost]

I agree with Dino's post.


If my dog bites me when I walk too close to his bowl,
I may forgive him...
but I WON'T stand around his bowl waiting for him to bite me again.

If your dog bites you with no bowl associated with the biting and it's a repeated pattern, then what? Now change the dog into a sibling. (Just because there comes a time we'd give up the dog, but we can't really give up the sibling. lol)

 

[atwhatcost]

You are NOT required to trust him. There is plenty of scripture to back that up.

WE are supposed to be wise as serpents but gentle as doves... Matt. 10:15...by your OP, I think your "position" is right and scripturally founded.

What I really want to do is never have contact with him again after Dad is gone. That really doesn't feel right as a believer. It feels all kinds of right as a human being.

 

[atwhatcost]

Hi lynn, You admittidly love him, and love covers a multitude of sins (1Peter 4:8 Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.) So you have forgiven him as Christ forgave you. (Ephesians 4:23 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.)

But Lack of trust stems from fear....... fear of being hurt by him again.....but there is no room in Love for fear. (1John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.)

To truly trust him fully may be impossible here on Earth, as each of walks our own path here. However, we can trust in God to provide us with wisdom, guidance and peace in all our decisions, (Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with all of your heart and lean not upon your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.) as well as to take any hurt done to us and turn it into blessings for many. (Genesis 50:20 You intended to hurt me, But God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives).
So regardless if you ever fully trust him or not, as long as you trust God to guide your ways, your path will stay straight concerning your brother.
Peace

This is the love I have for my brother.
1. I truly pray God will save him, but I can't talk to him about God. I've tried. He's still sure God doesn't exist because Mom died in 1972. That's his slam-the-door-in-my-face reaction (figuratively, not literally lol) on any discussion about God.

2. If he needs me, I will be there for him. If he needs money, I will stretch us out financially to give what I can. If he becomes homeless, he can live here. (He would hate that, but the chances of him needing that are so remote, he'd always be given that option. Come to think of it, hubby and I would have a lot of trouble being gracious if he moves in too.) He was up for a national award in his field and the industry journal gave room to make comments about any of the candidates. I told the truth. I praised his work, because he truly saved my Dad's income. (He's a financial planner and the one before him almost bankrupt Dad for making such amateur mistakes even I knew they were stupid. If someone's portfolio has nothing but blue chip stocks, you don't swap that out to invest in an outfit looking for a capsized ship carrying gold in the Caribbeans.) I will do whatever I can to help him.

BUT I neither like him nor trust him. What he did the last time only convinced me of something others have told me about him. He has not changed since he was a bully when we were growing up. All my other siblings acted like kids when we (or they -- since the two youngest weren't born until after the three oldest were in our 20's) were kids, but each one grew up to be caring, loving people -- except for him.

I do love him. I don't like him.

I just didn't want anyone to think I'm a saint. (Ha! What are the chances, huh? lol) It's a specific love -- not the kind that lavishes.

 

[maxwel]

If your dog bites you with no bowl associated with the biting and it's a repeated pattern, then what? Now change the dog into a sibling. (Just because there comes a time we'd give up the dog, but we can't really give up the sibling. lol)

You are the steward over all that God has given you.
This stewardship is a serious thing.

You are the steward over your mental health, your physical health, your spiritual walk, your family, your finances, your time... and many other things. You are to be a steward over all God has given you, and you are to protect these things. If you allow someone to harm or destroy any of these things, you are failing in your sacred stewardship before God.

I think that may be your answer.

 

[NewWine]

This is the love I have for my brother.
1. I truly pray God will save him, but I can't talk to him about God. I've tried. He's still sure God doesn't exist because Mom died in 1972. That's his slam-the-door-in-my-face reaction (figuratively, not literally lol) on any discussion about God.

2. If he needs me, I will be there for him. If he needs money, I will stretch us out financially to give what I can. If he becomes homeless, he can live here. (He would hate that, but the chances of him needing that are so remote, he'd always be given that option. Come to think of it, hubby and I would have a lot of trouble being gracious if he moves in too.) He was up for a national award in his field and the industry journal gave room to make comments about any of the candidates. I told the truth. I praised his work, because he truly saved my Dad's income. (He's a financial planner and the one before him almost bankrupt Dad for making such amateur mistakes even I knew they were stupid. If someone's portfolio has nothing but blue chip stocks, you don't swap that out to invest in an outfit looking for a capsized ship carrying gold in the Caribbeans.) I will do whatever I can to help him.

BUT I neither like him nor trust him. What he did the last time only convinced me of something others have told me about him. He has not changed since he was a bully when we were growing up. All my other siblings acted like kids when we (or they -- since the two youngest weren't born until after the three oldest were in our 20's) were kids, but each one grew up to be caring, loving people -- except for him.

I do love him. I don't like him.

I just didn't want anyone to think I'm a saint. (Ha! What are the chances, huh? lol) It's a specific love -- not the kind that lavishes.[/QUOTE.


You can do this! It's tough when dealing with an ailing parent in general, let alone with any sort of outside interference. You have a great foundation in Christ to guide you, so I am sure this will all happen as it should. I will definitely keep you in prayer!

 

[Naz01]

Forgiveness is returning to God the right to take care of justice. By refusing to transfer the right to exact punishment or revenge, we are telling God we don't trust him to take care of matters.
Forgiveness does not mean forgetting. It's normal for memories to be triggered in the future. When thoughts of past hurts occur, it's what we do with them that counts. When we find ourselves focusing on a past offense, we can learn to say, "Thank you, God, for this reminder of how important forgiveness is."
Forgiveness starts with a mental decision. The emotional part of forgiveness is finally being able to let go of the resentment. Emotional healing may or may not follow quickly after we forgive.

 

[nw2u]

I found this online. I believe it falls under your restrictions of opinions backed with scripture. It's just some food for thought, because I believe it's a communication problem. I read in the OP that you write letters once in a while, but that's pretty much it. I also read that you talked with your brother over the phone and he asked what was going on in detail. I read nowhere that he said he would take care of whatever issues you had in the family at the time.

Understand, I think he was deceptive in doing that. He was not willing to do what you asked, only to listen to what you had to say and then decide. That says to me that he does things because he has to do them out of respect to his father's wishes, but his heart is not in any of it. Preaching to him will not help, but simply push him further away.

There is a site called Focus on the Family which addresses some of the issues a parent would have with an adult child who does not believe. You can look it up if you desire and type in their search bar your topic. My suggestion is to not assume one single thing when talking with him. Ask specific questions and require specific answers with dates, times and so forth. Don't offer more information than is necessary. James discusses this, if you have a desire to look it up. I think forgiveness is covered above.

What does the Bible say about communication?

 

[BarlyGurl]

What I really want to do is never have contact with him again after Dad is gone. That really doesn't feel right as a believer. It feels all kinds of right as a human being.

You didn't give details so I can't really "judge" the issue but... I will reiterate... you are not required to LIKE HIM or TRUST HIM... not liking or trusting him is OKAY... if he is a bad guy... IT IS SMART! If he wasn't your brother... it wouldn't be such a problem for you. You can't choose your relatives!!! It is not UNLOVING to care about him but not particularly care FOR him. Pray for his salvation and stop beating yourself up about it.

 

[atwhatcost]

Forgiveness is returning to God the right to take care of justice. By refusing to transfer the right to exact punishment or revenge, we are telling God we don't trust him to take care of matters.
Forgiveness does not mean forgetting. It's normal for memories to be triggered in the future. When thoughts of past hurts occur, it's what we do with them that counts. When we find ourselves focusing on a past offense, we can learn to say, "Thank you, God, for this reminder of how important forgiveness is."
Forgiveness starts with a mental decision. The emotional part of forgiveness is finally being able to let go of the resentment. Emotional healing may or may not follow quickly after we forgive.

I know you're going through the same kind of thing with your MIL, so thanks for pointing the way for me too.

 

[atwhatcost]

I found this online. I believe it falls under your restrictions of opinions backed with scripture. It's just some food for thought, because I believe it's a communication problem. I read in the OP that you write letters once in a while, but that's pretty much it. I also read that you talked with your brother over the phone and he asked what was going on in detail. I read nowhere that he said he would take care of whatever issues you had in the family at the time.

Understand, I think he was deceptive in doing that. He was not willing to do what you asked, only to listen to what you had to say and then decide. That says to me that he does things because he has to do them out of respect to his father's wishes, but his heart is not in any of it. Preaching to him will not help, but simply push him further away.

There is a site called Focus on the Family which addresses some of the issues a parent would have with an adult child who does not believe. You can look it up if you desire and type in their search bar your topic. My suggestion is to not assume one single thing when talking with him. Ask specific questions and require specific answers with dates, times and so forth. Don't offer more information than is necessary. James discusses this, if you have a desire to look it up. I think forgiveness is covered above.

What does the Bible say about communication?

Actually, the point of contention with my brother has nothing to do with Dad. We were flat broke. (Now we're only broke, which feels so good after being flat broke. lol) Hubby was on chemo when all our savings disappeared and the foreclosure came in the mail. My brother was making at least six figures a year back then, and I asked for money. Not a loan, because I knew we'd never be able to pay him back. But max: $10,000, so he'd know I wasn't asking for all he had, and I was clear even less than that -- whatever he could afford -- was fine. And I wrote, instead of called, so, if he felt uncomfortable just saying no, he could pretend he never got the letter. And writing gave him time to decide one way or another, whereas if I called, it would sound like I was giving him no choice but demanding an answer right then. I honestly wrote all that in that letter. lol

He called. (That killed off pretending he never got the letter.) Then he wanted all the gory details of how bad it was. (It was worse than I'm describing it here.) And as I gave all the details, he asked more and more personal questions. I was crying. (I grew up with three brothers, a tomboy Mom and Dad. I do NOT cry! lol)

Worse yet, hubby was seeing me crying so telling me to get off the phone because my brother is a ...!!! (You really don't want to mess with me when hubby is near or you get full wrath of hubby. lol)

BUT I really didn't want hubby living in our car during chemo, so I kept going, crying my heart out and telling bro what was going on.

He asked me if I needed an answer immediately. I told him we'd be just as broke tomorrow as we were that day. Finally the phone call was over. It sounded like he needed to think about it.

The next time I heard from him was years later. Something was seriously wrong with Dad and could I go up there to take Dad to the doctors to find out what. (Doctor was thinking min strokes.) THAT's when he "apologized." (And yes, I did go. And I was there for Dad for the test and the doctor's visit after the test when we heard that word together -- "dementia.")

Never got a Yes or No out of him. Got totally and completely ignored.

Dad and that brother had something in common at that time. Both had two kids in college or about to go to college. I wrote that same letter to Dad and one of hubby's family members. I got an honest answer from Dad. He'd send what he could, but it wouldn't be a lot, because he owed an education to the two youngest. (One was going to Syracuse and the other Penn State -- so he was paying BIG bucks for education.)

I can't blame him for that. Matter of fact, if it weren't for what Dad could send, we would have ended up living in the car, so I am enternaly grateful he sent what he could, and hold no hard feelings it wasn't the max of what I asked. It was enough! That's all I asked for.

But bro? He simply left me hanging after spending 2 hours making me cry for no particular reason other than his nosiness. I know I had no right to ask. I know I was begging. Yes or No was fine!

It certainly wasn't lack of communications, unless you can think of some how I misinterpreted his message.

 

[BarlyGurl]

Ugh!!! When he finally calls you for help... just remember you are a christian...and GOD IS LISTENING to your thinks... so if you are tempted to respond to your brother in like manner... just stomp that thought and give him an honest "yes or no". You are not obligated to give $$$ so you lack... he is your brother by family... not brother by SPIRIT. He can't remember what he did... because your problem was never a concern for him.