How to Spot a Legalist

[FreeNChrist]

The first mean jab came in at post 22 and the second at #35..I'm ashamed at the ones who gave those 'likes'.

Oh stop with all the actual factual reality stuff, you're gonna burst their bubble.

 

[KennethC]

The first mean jab came in at post 22 and the second at #35..I'm ashamed at the ones who gave those 'likes'.

Well that was not me that did those posts nor did I like them, because I do not agree with anybody rather they believe the way I do or believe the opposite to use demeaning and belittling tactic's or passing false allegations/accusations at others.

I even started a thread awhile back about calling all people from each doctrine to stop siding with others in their same belief system when they are using such unedifying tactic's.

For that shows they are just liking the threads without actually reading what was said or is going on, because the person they are attacking is somebody they don't like. Which shows unChristlike behavior on all sides.

 

[KennethC]

2 Corinthians 7:1

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

 

[weakness]

​
Legalists are tricky creatures.

They slither in the side doors of churches, sign up to lead Bible studies, and fill the minds of once joyous believers with rules and requirements of what it “really means” to become a Christian.

Ask them how a person is saved and they’ll say, “By grace of course,” and then they’ll roll out a scroll across the floor full of checklists to prove your salvation, and prerequisites you must abide by in order to receive this “free gift” of grace.

The Apostle Paul had strong words for the legalists of his time. These legalistic Judaizers wanted the Gentiles to accept God’s grace through faith, but be required to get circumcised and to keep the law of Moses as well. Paul had strong words about them in Galatians 5:12, “As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!”

Wow.

Today, nobody (as far as I know) is seeking to add circumcision to the free gift of God’s grace as a requirement for salvation. No, currently, a far more subtle and sinister movement is creeping into the church.

21st Century Pharisees have replaced circumcision and keeping of the law with a more accepted evangelicalized list of dos and don’ts.

These pious sounding party poopers are getting Christians to doubt their salvation, get discouraged in their salvation, and trying to prove, keep and/or earn their salvation. They are robbing believers of the joy that was once theirs in Christ and replacing it with the heavy yoke of legalism (Acts 15:5-11).

With this in mind, here are 10 ways to spot a legalist in your church:

1. They cheapen grace by focusing on what we must do rather than on what Christ has done.

2. They’ll say nonsensical things like, “Salvation is free, but it will cost you everything you have.”

3. They are “fruit inspectors” and hypothesize how much spiritual fruit a person must produce in order to truly be saved.

4. They focus on things like turning, trying and crying instead of faith alone in Christ alone for salvation.

5. Their “gospel” could never be falsely accused of being a license to sin (like Paul’s was in Romans 3:8!).

6. They scare others with assertions that, if you preach too much grace, people will run amok.

7. They conveniently avoid or misexegete large portions of gospel-centric New Testament books like Galatians, Romans and John.

8. They blend justification passages with sanctification passages, and then try to get us to drink a heresy smoothie.

9. They bake the same works-based righteousness cake that Mormons and Muslims do, but cover it with evangelical frosting.

10. They use the phrase, “You mean to tell me … ” a lot. Then they create worst case salvation scenarios of those who claim to be Christians, but abuse the grace of God. “You mean to tell me that someone can be saved and still … ?”

But grace that cannot be abused is no grace at all. Grace that is not free is no grace at all. Grace that is not received by simple faith is no grace at all.

I like the way Paul put it in Romans 11:6, “And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.” It’s either by grace or by works. It can’t be by both.

But here’s the crazy thing about grace, once you receive it through faith it begins to transform you.

Jesus changes your “wanter” and you become a new creation. Sure we can abuse it and, if we’re honest, often do. But when we let grace do its work it “teaches us to say ‘No’ to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age” (Titus 2:12).

God’s grace is not a license to sin, but a reason to serve Jesus with reckless abandon … not because we have to, but because we get to.

If we resist, he persists.
If we fail, he forgives.
If we lose our faith, he remains faithful (2 Timothy 2:13).

That makes me want to serve Him all the more. Sorry legalists, but grace is a better fuel. As for you agitators, I wish you would go the whole way and... cut it out.



Greg Stier of Dare2Share Ministries in a post on ChurchLeaders.com​

​There are so many instances that legalism and grace come up here.I kinda understand but there is a disconnect some where in me.I don"t see Grace and work as being in opposition to each other. I see them as part of a workable two part thing. We are totally saved by grace. The whole plan of God is by grace that we have not merited by our actions. But within this plan God and ourselves have a role to play or do. We are to be and walk like Christ, and as someone said ,we are even to exceed his manifestation . And of course it is the Spirit in us working through us. But we have, being created in Gods image,have freewill and many other God like attributes. Scripture says not to quench the Spirit. Or put it out like you quench a fire. Also to present our bodies as living sacrifices. I read a post the other day that God does"t ask us to forsake all and criticized someone for saying it. I realize that some by Godswill,do have possessions for his purposes. But in general jesus come first, our life and every thing in it are based upon his life giving work and death. Jesus said my father works today and so do I. He did the works of the Father. When we become born again we become New Creations, Born apart of God"s family. Christ is made unto us wisdom, sanctification,Righteousness, teacher, first born among many brethren, and much more. We with a renewed mind can make godly decisions. Suffering is another decision we make, paul said he had a choice. I don"t think that Grace takes away our choices that we decide ourselves, being born again. Even the choice to believe in the gospel we have, Is this made by God too? Unless you mis interperate predestination.We could go farther , If God made us a vessel of dishonor how can he punish us? (see paul) Again I am a little confused....any help?

 

[KennethC]

​There are so many instances that legalism and grace come up here.I kinda understand but there is a disconnect some where in me.I don"t see Grace and work as being in opposition to each other. I see them as part of a workable two part thing. We are totally saved by grace. The whole plan of God is by grace that we have not merited by our actions. But within this plan God and ourselves have a role to play or do. We are to be and walk like Christ, and as someone said ,we are even to exceed his manifestation . And of course it is the Spirit in us working through us. But we have, being created in Gods image,have freewill and many other God like attributes. Scripture says not to quench the Spirit. Or put it out like you quench a fire. Also to present our bodies as living sacrifices. I read a post the other day that God does"t ask us to forsake all and criticized someone for saying it. I realize that some by Godswill,do have possessions for his purposes. But in general jesus come first, our life and every thing in it are based upon his life giving work and death. Jesus said my father works today and so do I. He did the works of the Father. When we become born again we become New Creations, Born apart of God"s family. Christ is made unto us wisdom, sanctification,Righteousness, teacher, first born among many brethren, and much more. We with a renewed mind can make godly decisions. Suffering is another decision we make, paul said he had a choice. I don"t think that Grace takes away our choices that we decide ourselves, being born again. Even the choice to believe in the gospel we have, Is this made by God too? Unless you mis interperate predestination.We could go farther , If God made us a vessel of dishonor how can he punish us? (see paul) Again I am a little confused....any help?

You are right they can not be separated one from the other because a true faith will show out in how one acts, talks, and treats others because it will be reflective of the fruit of the Holy Spirit working in and through us.

If there is no proof of the Holy Spirit then we will know, which is why our Lord Jesus said by their fruits you will know them who are not believers.

 

[Crustyone]

What is considered works than?

Works that are considered non essential are works of the law that was given in the Old Testament. I am told that I am wrong for saying this, but there is a work of faith required for salvation as stated in Romans 10:9-10 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Biblically it is not called a work, that's just what I feel the profession of faith is.

 

[crossnote]

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.
(1Co 15:10)

That pretty sums it up for me.

 

[Crustyone]

On the subject of free will, I see no reason to discredit it. I suspect that God created our minds and the circumstances of our lives, to best suit our decisions for His overall plan to be accomplished. In other words, our decisions are freely made, but already known. Once knowing our decisions, He could place us, so that our interactions with others would bring about His purposes.

 

[shotgunner]

Please explain how "HAVING NO CONSCIENCE OF SIN" is going to work in harmony with RENEWING YOUR MIND IN CHRIST? If there is no conscience of sin how can you renew your mind to what is RIGHT if you have no conscience of WRONG. Which CLEARLY everybody DOES have conscience of right and wrong and there is no shortage of people who want to call people they label as "LEGALIST" as sinning or having sinful doctrine or being of the devil... so perhaps you can unravel this problem and make it harmonize with the full counsel of the scripture???

The answer to that question is found right there in Hebrews 10. First what does it mean not to have a sin consciousness?
Verse 2 of Hebrews 10 says that the old sacrifices could not make the worshipers perfect. Verse 11 then says that if the old sacrifices could have made the worshipers perfect then the offerings would have stopped because once purged they would have had no more conscience of sin. Verse 3 says that in those old sacrifices there was always a remembrance of sin because the blood of animals could never take away those sins.

The renewing of our minds we are to do is to know and fully realize that our sins have been purged,completely removed. We are now new creations. We are now the righteousness of God. We are no longer to struggle with sins. All we do when we remember sins and struggle against sins is to give them a position that does not belong to them. If we could only stop focusing on ourselves and our own sins we could focus on the finished work of Jesus, and the fact that our sins have been removed and have no power over us any longer. This is the way out of sin rather than the struggle of self against sin. Self never could conqueror sin and never will.

As long as you continue to fight against an enemy, that enemy has power. I am not saying to give in to sin and sin all you want. A saved person doesn't want to sin anyway. What I am saying is to know that sin has been conquered on the cross. The battle has already been won by Jesus. When we put our trust in him alone as the one who has dealt with our sin, we deny sin's hold on us. The victory is already won. All we need do is accept that victory by faith and the struggle over sin is done. The problem has been that the devil has us trying to win a battle that Christ has already won. We don't even know we are victorious and so we don't enjoy the spoils of victory.

We still have a conscience of sins because we cannot accept that Jesus has already dealt with sin. Jesus already paid the price. We have already been purged of sin. We have carnal minds that only look at self and how sinful self is and we try to correct self to be what we think is pleasing to God. Works don't please God. Faith is the only thing that pleases God. Faith in the finished work of Calvary. The carnal mind cannot accept the things of God. The carnal mind cannot grasp righteousness by faith alone, for the carnal mind will only see self and never see Jesus and what was done in the Spirit.

 

[JaumeJ]

There are too many instances of individuals posting with allegations, accusations in the guise of correction, etc. without having read or understood the very posts in play. Not using the mind before replying,, answering a question without having heard it all, assuming another has a specific stance and/or worse is not a dialogue, it is simply arguing. For this cause I am unsubscribing to this thread. I will participate, always, on this subject, but the call to "repent" to those who have been labeled legalists, yet rely on the Blood of the Lam of God is too hurtful to continually endure. Before going for those splinters, take the beans out of your eyes. ALL WHO RELY ON JESUS CHRIST FOR SALVATION ARE FAMILY IN THE BLOOD. iF SOME CHOOSE TO OBEY MORE THAN OTHERS, IT IS NOT SIN. It is sin to judge another. Have I judged here? If you think so....pity. God bless all in Jesus Christ.

 

[vic1980]

Hmmm, and here I thought that as Christians we follow the leading of the risen living Lord Jesus Christ. But maybe that's just me. Those "teachings" all point us to the living Christ, not back to themselves.

Where in post # 32 did i concluded that the works God ordained for His people to follow point to themselves ???

What the Bible says

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Alive in Christ

Ephesians 2:9-10

Not of works, lest any man should boast.For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

But from what I've read,from some members on this site thee word "works" it is consider fear , bondage & religion ???

The works that belivers in Jesus Christ do in there life here on earth ,have been already ordained By God that we should walk in them. If a fellow believer in Christ feels it is legalistic way of life to follow what Messiah & The Apostles has taught by the Holyspirit, perhaps they need to re- examine themselves if they are in the faith.

Here is just one of many example of teaching upon the gentiles what they should do.

Paul testimony to Agrippa

Acts 26:19-20 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Another example we can list, clearly in revelation the 7 churches on there works.

Please do not confused works that God has clearly ordained for His people to walk in as something bad.

Shalom

Why did you try to use a scheme in order to start a dispute with me ???

What exactly is the purpose of using these verse towards me John 5:39-40 ? Now in your mind set i don't know my LORD & Savior Jesus Christ ? I forgive you , but this will conclude my final comment toward you sir. It seems you are more obsessed with disputes instead of sound Doctrine.

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; but you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life." John 5:39-40

I forgive you FreeNChrist

Now let us Give thanks to God and be reminded that, For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.

Let all of us, give thanks to Him always in all things.

Hebrews 13:15-16

Through Him then, let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that give thanks to His name.

And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

Shalom

 

[atwhatcost]

The first mean jab came in at post 22 and the second at #35..I'm ashamed at the ones who gave those 'likes'.

Which ashamed?
embarrassed or guilty because of one's actions, characteristics, or associations.
[COLOR=#878787 !important]"you should be ashamed of yourself"[/COLOR]
[TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
[TR]
[TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
[TD]sorry, shamefaced, abashed, sheepish, guilty, contrite, remorseful,repentant, penitent, regretful, rueful, apologetic; More





[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
[TR]
[TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

• reluctant to do something through fear of embarrassment or humiliation.
  [COLOR=#878787 !important]"I'm ashamed to say I followed him home"[/COLOR]
  [TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
  [TR]
  [TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
  [TD]sorry, shamefaced, abashed, sheepish, guilty, contrite, remorseful,repentant, penitent, regretful, rueful, apologetic; More[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [/TABLE]
  
  
  

Will you repent or feel contrite for not appreciating the obvious?

 

[crossnote]

Let's see here. So apparently the only two choices are "legalists" or self-appointed snobs who think they're so much better by putting down legalists.

Oh, peach keen! I'm feeling the love. Anyone have a parka?

Which ashamed?
embarrassed or guilty because of one's actions, characteristics, or associations.
[COLOR=#878787 !important]"you should be ashamed of yourself"[/COLOR]
[TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
[TR]
[TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
[TD]sorry, shamefaced, abashed, sheepish, guilty, contrite, remorseful,repentant, penitent, regretful, rueful, apologetic; More




[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
[TR]
[TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

• reluctant to do something through fear of embarrassment or humiliation.
  [COLOR=#878787 !important]"I'm ashamed to say I followed him home"[/COLOR]
  [TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
  [TR]
  [TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
  [TD]sorry, shamefaced, abashed, sheepish, guilty, contrite, remorseful,repentant, penitent, regretful, rueful, apologetic; More[/TD]
  [/TR]
  [/TABLE]

Will you repent or feel contrite for not appreciating the obvious?

no need to, it was obviously a jab, not worthy of a like.

 

[BenFTW]

I tried to define why all this back and forth happens between the grace community and those arguing with them here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ke-confusing-cause-effect-sanctification.html

I think sanctification and the necessity of it is where this all comes down to. Give it a read if you have the time (a little long), it took me 3 or 4 minutes to read.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Where in post # 32 did i concluded that the works God ordained for His people to follow point to themselves ???

That's not what I meant. I meant scripture does not point us back onto itself, it points us to Jesus.

I forgive you FreeNChrist

Great, but for what?

 

[FreeNChrist]

I tried to define why all this back and forth happens between the grace community and those arguing with them here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ke-confusing-cause-effect-sanctification.html

I think sanctification and the necessity of it is where this all comes down to. Give it a read if you have the time (a little long), it took me 3 or 4 minutes to read.

This has been going on since the very beginning of Christianity, and I am sure it will continue until the Lord returns. So much of the NT was written specifically to refute legalism that you would think it would be obvious, and still 2000 years later it persists. We must stand firmly with Christ, not only for ourselves but for others as well.

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery" Gal. 5:1

 

[KennethC]

I tried to define why all this back and forth happens between the grace community and those arguing with them here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ke-confusing-cause-effect-sanctification.html

I think sanctification and the necessity of it is where this all comes down to. Give it a read if you have the time (a little long), it took me 3 or 4 minutes to read.

People are not going to take to this because when you post a link to another source, it needs to actually be another source and not just your own words of how you been taught and then trying to break it down for others.

Remember the word of God says by 2 to 3 witnesses let a thing be established (2 Corinthians 13:1) !!!

Why the debating and arguing continues is because the grace only community continues to label those who speak on the works of the faith in such faulty/false witnessing ways as: legalists, works to earn salvation, and state we have no faith in Christ !!!

If you and others would step back take a breath and take your time in actually reading what we are saying, ask questions instead of jump to conclusions, and put aside the faulty accusations that have been passed down for years.

You and others would see none of us have said the Mosaic written ordinances have to be kept for salvation, none have said works earn salvation, and none have said works maintain salvation !!!

Works are the "PROOF" of a true saving faith in the Lord...............The bible confirms this as this is biblically sound !!!

 

[KennethC]

The Old Testament scriptures (Laws) point us and lead us to Christ.................

The New Testament scriptures point us to salvation through Christ by God's grace.............

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Old Testament scriptures (Laws) point us and lead us to Christ.................

The New Testament scriptures point us to salvation through Christ by God's grace.............

rolls eyes.

The Old testament scripture were perfectly fine to point people to salvation. unless you believe no one in the oT was saved (not to mention. Paul told timothy as a child (when all he had was the OT ) Scripture gave him enough knowledge to be saved.)

It is amazing how blind a person can make themselves so they can hold onto their belief system.

 

[FreeNChrist]

People are not going to take to this because when you post a link to another source, it needs to actually be another source and not just your own words of how you been taught and then trying to break it down for others.

Remember the word of God says by 2 to 3 witnesses let a thing be established (2 Corinthians 13:1) !!!

Why the debating and arguing continues is because the grace only community continues to label those who speak on the works of the faith in such faulty/false witnessing ways as: legalists, works to earn salvation, and state we have no faith in Christ !!!

If you and others would step back take a breath and take your time in actually reading what we are saying, ask questions instead of jump to conclusions, and put aside the faulty accusations that have been passed down for years.

You and others would see none of us have said the Mosaic written ordinances have to be kept for salvation, none have said works earn salvation, and none have said works maintain salvation !!!

Works are the "PROOF" of a true saving faith in the Lord...............The bible confirms this as this is biblically sound !!!

What "works", and how many do you have to see for you to be convinced of another's salvation?