Legalism's Mistake: Confusing Cause & Effect (Sanctification)

[KennethC]

From what I understand, that's not what he is saying (or trying to say). Rather, he is saying a true Christian will work. So he is making work a necessity of a true believer. So the work is not a requirement of salvation but is a necessity of a true Christian. I know its a subtle distinction but he is trying to say that it isn't a requirement to maintain or earn salvation but is a fruit of true conversion.

We, then, must argue that works are not a necessary result of conversion and are a possibility rather than a necessity. So if someone doesn't walk in these works, they are by no means less saved. We could point to the thief on the cross to show this, that it was simple faith in Jesus that got him into paradise. We are saved unto good works, but the works, whether done or not done, do not save us even if they are a result of who we now are and God working in and through us His perfect will.

Someone who believes and dies the next moment for example, does not have the time to do these works. Does it make them any less saved? No, they have faith in Jesus so they are saved. So while the fruit of conversion leads to good works, the good works that may or may not be done have no say in salvation. Yes, they follow as a result of true conversion, but if the opportunity for good works doesn't present itself due to imminent death we then have a clause. Good works may follow true conversion. That is, if given the opportunity.

The fact that there is a clause that negates the necessity of works means that ultimately works do not maintain salvation. I am sure KennethC agrees, as he says works do not maintain salvation. The problem, however, is to make works a necessity of true conversion, ignoring that there is a clause that the works can only be done if given the opportunity.

My question would be, "What if the opportunity does present itself to do good works, and then you do not do the work?" I am going to guess that KennethC would question the sincerity of that person's belief and whether they are truly converted. So it goes around in circles because its all about fruit inspection. The necessity for good works means you can determine if someone is a Christian by their conduct. The problem with this is that it doesn't consider that fruit takes time to bear, and so you have no place to judge others sincerity because maybe they haven't yet come to full fruition.

Do you see it? Its not that he is saying good works maintain salvation, or earns it. He is saying that a true Christian will have these things follow. I disagree, and think that a true Christian could (possibly) have these things follow. The necessity for good works is not presented as something we have to do, but that we will do as born-again Christians. If that makes sense. He is trying to define what a true Christian will do as a result of belief. His mistake is in thinking it is a necessity to walk in the fruit of true conversion, and isn't acknowledging that there are clauses to consider, that would make it to where one does not walk in these good works (such as death, being bed ridden, or a death bed confession).

I am trying to clear the air, and clear up confusion from misunderstandings. I think the problem here, the disagreement, is on the necessity for good works, and also sanctification (as I titled this thread). We are quick to define KennethC a Legalist, but he is basically just being a fruit inspector (no offense to him). He is calling for the necessity of the fruit of conversion. We are saying that although it is a fruit (the good works), it is not a necessary fruit and has no say upon ones salvation ultimately.

Hope that helps...

You are pretty close and almost right, but the part we still disagree on is if the fruit of the Holy Spirit is not a requirement as proof for one who is saved through Christ for salvation then answer me this:

Why does our Lord Jesus say those who do not have this fruit will be cut off and thrown into the fire to be burned up ???

Lord Jesus is not talking about burning up works here, He is talking about what will happen to the person who lived a life in disobedience. There are a number of scriptures in the NT that speak on disobedience, and the outcome mentioned in those passages are not loss of rewards. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is definite marker to show a saved believer from the unsaved, unbeliever, and false teachers.

To say the fruit of the Spirit is only a possibility is pretty much the same as what Paul said in 2 Timothy 3:5 about having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof. The fruit of the Spirit is expressed all throughout the bible making sure the readers can not ignore them, and Peter says by adding them to our lives we make our call and election sure and guarantee an entrance into heaven. (2 Peter 1:10-11)

I never tell another person they are not saved or headed to hell, nor do I ever condemn a person and tell them the Lord Jesus is not their Savior like a few have done to me on here. That is not proper nor is it what we are called to do with others.

We are called to bring the whole truth in the Word of God, and even though some do not like or believe that a person can fall away, depart from, or not continue in the faith and not end up with eternal life there is a number of scriptures that shows this teaching is biblically sound !!!

The fruit of the Holy Spirit is a function that will be evident in all true born again believers, for who can deny the working of the Holy Spirit in and through their life? Nobody should but unfortunately the bible speaks on those who will remain disobedient or return to a life of disobedience.

Now I know as you have said then you bring in the thief on the cross or a person who dies shortly after they have received the Lord. This is where His mercy comes into the equation and I believe these people are saved as the word of God shows, but again the bible also shows that examples such as that are not to be taken to allow disobedience.
(Galatians 5:3, Romans 6:1-15)

Remember in Jude 1:4 the Apostle Jude says anybody that teaches the grace of God allows sinful behavior to continue in peoples lives are teaching false doctrine and there condemnation was marked long ago. Apostle Paul says the same thing in Ephesians 4:20 that those who allow sinful behavior to remain in their lives have not learned Christ.


James 3:17
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, andeasy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

 

[KennethC]

One other thing I saw that I had to respond to:

You can not be under the law and under grace at the same time !!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

would you kindly point them out so I can avoid them?

why would you want to ovoid them? You do not want them to join you in heaven?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are pretty close and almost right, but the part we still disagree on is if the fruit of the Holy Spirit is not a requirement as proof for one who is saved through Christ for salvation then answer me this:

You did not read a thing he said, He never said that a person who is saved would not produce fruit, (except for possible death bead, which theif on the cross would prove him right)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

One other thing I saw that I had to respond to:

You can not be under the law and under grace at the same time !!!

Thats why you think you are ok and you just make small boo boo's. the law does not condemn you and show you your need for Christ.

The law is not done away with, it still sits in the background condemning us. We are only not under law because the condemnation of the law is done away with.

But you reject grace, so your still under law. So you still have issues.

 

[BenFTW]

You are pretty close and almost right, but the part we still disagree on is if the fruit of the Holy Spirit is not a requirement as proof for one who is saved through Christ for salvation then answer me this:

Why does our Lord Jesus say those who do not have this fruit will be cut off and thrown into the fire to be burned up ???

Lord Jesus is not talking about burning up works here, He is talking about what will happen to the person who lived a life in disobedience. There are a number of scriptures in the NT that speak on disobedience, and the outcome mentioned in those passages are not loss of rewards. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is definite marker to show a saved believer from the unsaved, unbeliever, and false teachers.

To say the fruit of the Spirit is only a possibility is pretty much the same as what Paul said in 2 Timothy 3:5 about having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof. The fruit of the Spirit is expressed all throughout the bible making sure the readers can not ignore them, and Peter says by adding them to our lives we make our call and election sure and guarantee an entrance into heaven. (2 Peter 1:10-11)

I never tell another person they are not saved or headed to hell, nor do I ever condemn a person and tell them the Lord Jesus is not their Savior like a few have done to me on here. That is not proper nor is it what we are called to do with others.

We are called to bring the whole truth in the Word of God, and even though some do not like or believe that a person can fall away, depart from, or not continue in the faith and not end up with eternal life there is a number of scriptures that shows this teaching is biblically sound !!!

The fruit of the Holy Spirit is a function that will be evident in all true born again believers, for who can deny the working of the Holy Spirit in and through their life? Nobody should but unfortunately the bible speaks on those who will remain disobedient or return to a life of disobedience.

Now I know as you have said then you bring in the thief on the cross or a person who dies shortly after they have received the Lord. This is where His mercy comes into the equation and I believe these people are saved as the word of God shows, but again the bible also shows that examples such as that are not to be taken to allow disobedience.
(Galatians 5:3, Romans 6:1-15)

Remember in Jude 1:4 the Apostle Jude says anybody that teaches the grace of God allows sinful behavior to continue in peoples lives are teaching false doctrine and there condemnation was marked long ago. Apostle Paul says the same thing in Ephesians 4:20 that those who allow sinful behavior to remain in their lives have not learned Christ.


James 3:17
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, andeasy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

You said, "if the fruit of the Holy Spirit is not a requirement as proof for one who is saved through Christ for salvation", and I don't understand why that is being brought up. I didn't say it wasn't a proof of a person being saved, but keep in mind this has to do with witness and not actual salvation. It can reveal to an onlooker that you are indeed saved, but careful in making your judgement. They may yet be babes in Christ, having yet matured.

The reference to possibility was said to leave room for the clauses I mentioned that it is possible for someone to be saved and not go through the full process of sanctification (as shown by the thief and hypothetical scenarios).

 

[KennethC]

You said, "if the fruit of the Holy Spirit is not a requirement as proof for one who is saved through Christ for salvation", and I don't understand why that is being brought up. I didn't say it wasn't a proof of a person being saved, but keep in mind this has to do with witness and not actual salvation. It can reveal to an onlooker that you are indeed saved, but careful in making your judgement. They may yet be babes in Christ, having yet matured.

The reference to possibility was said to leave room for the clauses I mentioned that it is possible for someone to be saved and not go through the full process of sanctification (as shown by the thief and hypothetical scenarios).

Well then we are on the same page then if you are referring to the possibility as apply to the thief on the cross, or a death bed confession. Or even if it is a person that accepts the Lord today but then a day to to later for some reason die to where they were not able to do much in the way of the fruit of the Spirit.

This is why I have always said it is not about quantity (number of works) but on the quality of life one lives, but some can not get over looking at the quantity aspect for some reason or another.

Remember that even if the person is struggling their quality of life shows their heart is still in the right place, because struggling means they are attempting to stop their sinful ways.

Yes I do realize some are babes/new believers/weak believers in the faith that are listening, but that does not mean we should hold back from giving the full truth. And again by giving the truth is not judging, and the righteous judgment we are told we can do is pointing out to another where they are still walking improperly in the faith and help them to change from those ways by giving the truth in the Word of God.

Also you stated the fruit is about witness and not actual salvation, but again the Lord Jesus said those without that fruit in their life will be cut off and burned. He did not say they would receive eternal life !!!

Luke 6:46-49 our Lord Jesus shows us two groups that the first one is true believers in Him, and the second group is an example of a false profession of the faith in Him. The second group does not get eternal life !!!

Like I spoke on before the bible in the NT gives a number of examples of warnings for disobedience, and most of them do not say the ending result in them are loss of rewards. It says they are cast to outer darkness, told He never knew them, given eternal punishment, appointed with the unbelievers, and could not enter the kingdom of heaven because of that disobedience which is called a sin of unbelief !!!

 

[ember]

why would you want to ovoid them? You do not want them to join you in heaven?

ok...I see you are better at table tennis then actually being responsible for what you post


another time perhaps

 

[KennethC]

ok...I see you are better at table tennis then actually being responsible for what you post


another time perhaps

Don't worry about what others say or do and don't let them draw you in, just stay firm in the Word of God no matter what others say.

Causing strife and bickering behind people's backs, we are called to separate ourselves from such individuals !!!

 

[ember]

Don't worry about what others say or do and don't let them draw you in, just stay firm in the Word of God no matter what others say.

Causing strife and bickering behind people's backs, we are called to separate ourselves from such individuals !!!

I understand what is going on here as I have seen it in thread after thread. People need to let go of their pre-programmed responses and stop harboring resentment and the desire to score points. Nobody wins.

I think a really good discussion could be had, but not unless the bickering stops.

I have read enough of your posts now to come to the conclusion that some do not really even try to understand but just throw a glob of past exposure at you

I think Ben, the op, is, in his posts, trying for more but it is also up to each poster to think twice or three times before answering in the same manner they did every other time

 

[Angela53510]

Well then we are on the same page then if you are referring to the possibility as apply to the thief on the cross, or a death bed confession. Or even if it is a person that accepts the Lord today but then a day to to later for some reason die to where they were not able to do much in the way of the fruit of the Spirit.

This is why I have always said it is not about quantity (number of works) but on the quality of life one lives, but some can not get over looking at the quantity aspect for some reason or another.

Remember that even if the person is struggling their quality of life shows their heart is still in the right place, because struggling means they are attempting to stop their sinful ways.

Yes I do realize some are babes/new believers/weak believers in the faith that are listening, but that does not mean we should hold back from giving the full truth. And again by giving the truth is not judging, and the righteous judgment we are told we can do is pointing out to another where they are still walking improperly in the faith and help them to change from those ways by giving the truth in the Word of God.

Also you stated the fruit is about witness and not actual salvation, but again the Lord Jesus said those without that fruit in their life will be cut off and burned. He did not say they would receive eternal life !!!

Luke 6:46-49 our Lord Jesus shows us two groups that the first one is true believers in Him, and the second group is an example of a false profession of the faith in Him. The second group does not get eternal life !!!

Like I spoke on before the bible in the NT gives a number of examples of warnings for disobedience, and most of them do not say the ending result in them are loss of rewards. It says they are cast to outer darkness, told He never knew them, given eternal punishment, appointed with the unbelievers, and could not enter the kingdom of heaven because of that disobedience which is called a sin of unbelief !!!

I don't like to post on these law vs grace threads, because they never end and nothing is resolved. I did like Ben's OP and his attempt to find unity, so I will point out a few errors in the above post.

First, it is probably better to post the ACTUAL verses, rather than just the reference. Because then the exegetial errors become so obvious

"46 “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?47 Everyone who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you what he is like:48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when a flood arose, the stream broke against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built.49 But the one who hears and does not do them is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the stream broke against it, immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6:46-49.

Definitely two groups in this passage. One is the group that builds on a strong foundation, the other is the group that builds on ground without a foundation and is washed away. I hope we can agree on this!

So the question becomes, what or who is the foundation? You see, my Bible tells me that Jesus is the foundation. Nothing that I have done, will do or attempted. Not fruits, nor works, nor anything else.

"For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." 1 Cor. 3:11

So who is the foundation?? It is Jesus Christ. It really bothers me when people take a verse out of context, and make a doctrine out of it. In fact, this verse is part of a very important passage about fruits and those who do not manifest them. Why was Jesus not stronger in the passages in John, especially John 15, about him being the foundation? Because he was teacher those who believed in him. He was preparing them for the trials they would go through after his death and resurrection. Scripture must agree with itself. Jesus was being humble, but still pointing the way towards him.

"For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." 1 Cor. 3:11-15.

This passage tells us clearly that we are not cast out for "no works", but saved, "but only as through fire." So the rewards for having fruits, built ON JESUS CHRIST determine our eternal rewards. We do not lose our salvation because we do not have works! Or fruits!

I guess the second thing that really bothers me about using the parables about those not abiding in the vine being burned up, is that first, it is a parable! Second, is that the word abide or μένω (meno) in Greek means "remain." Here is something I copied and pasted. Because it is exactly what I was going to say.

"The word "abide" basically means "to remain." Every Christian remains inseparably linked to Christ in all areas of life. We depend on Him for grace and power to obey. We look obediently to His Word for instruction on how to live. We offer Him our deepest adoration and praise and we submit ourselves to His authority over our lives. In short, Christians gratefully know Jesus Christ is the source and sustainer of their lives.

Abiding in Christ evidences genuine salvation. The Apostle John alluded to that when he referred to defected professors who "went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:19).
People with genuine faith will remain--they won't defect; they won't deny Christ or abandon His truth. Jesus reiterated the importance of abiding as a sign of real faith when He said, "If you abide in My Word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" (John 8:31)."

What does it mean to "abide" in Christ?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ok...I see you are better at table tennis then actually being responsible for what you post


another time perhaps

well evidently you have not been reading a thing I have said or you would not need to ask.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Don't worry about what others say or do and don't let them draw you in, just stay firm in the Word of God no matter what others say.

Causing strife and bickering behind people's backs, we are called to separate ourselves from such individuals !!!

we are also called to expose false teachers. who preach a different gospel.

Consider yourself exposed.

 

[dcontroversal]

we are also called to expose false teachers. who preach a different gospel.

Consider yourself exposed.

Amen to that...he will find out one day soon...albeit too late......tragically!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I understand what is going on here as I have seen it in thread after thread. People need to let go of their pre-programmed responses and stop harboring resentment and the desire to score points. Nobody wins.

Who said I was trying to win. You people and your pre-concieved ideas amaze me.

No one wins when a false gospel is being preached. People go to hell. This is not a miniscule argument about end times, or something minor. this is the gospel of Jesus Christ, Where Paul said if anyone.. and he meant anyone teaches a gospel that is even one word different than his, they are to be anathema'd. Because they lead people to hell.

If you want that on you conscious. thats up to you.

I think a really good discussion could be had, but not unless the bickering stops.

Already tried that, It usually lasts about a day if that. Then it goes south because people continue to say stuff. then deny it.

I have read enough of your posts now to come to the conclusion that some do not really even try to understand but just throw a glob of past exposure at you

So you think he is ok? Thats sad. So I take it you are not secure in Christ either?

 

[KennethC]

I don't like to post on these law vs grace threads, because they never end and nothing is resolved. I did like Ben's OP and his attempt to find unity, so I will point out a few errors in the above post.

First, it is probably better to post the ACTUAL verses, rather than just the reference. Because then the exegetial errors become so obvious

"46 “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?47 Everyone who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you what he is like:48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when a flood arose, the stream broke against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built.49 But the one who hears and does not do them is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the stream broke against it, immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6:46-49.

Definitely two groups in this passage. One is the group that builds on a strong foundation, the other is the group that builds on ground without a foundation and is washed away. I hope we can agree on this!

So the question becomes, what or who is the foundation? You see, my Bible tells me that Jesus is the foundation. Nothing that I have done, will do or attempted. Not fruits, nor works, nor anything else.

"For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." 1 Cor. 3:11

So who is the foundation?? It is Jesus Christ. It really bothers me when people take a verse out of context, and make a doctrine out of it. In fact, this verse is part of a very important passage about fruits and those who do not manifest them. Why was Jesus not stronger in the passages in John, especially John 15, about him being the foundation? Because he was teacher those who believed in him. He was preparing them for the trials they would go through after his death and resurrection. Scripture must agree with itself. Jesus was being humble, but still pointing the way towards him.

"For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." 1 Cor. 3:11-15.

This passage tells us clearly that we are not cast out for "no works", but saved, "but only as through fire." So the rewards for having fruits, built ON JESUS CHRIST determine our eternal rewards. We do not lose our salvation because we do not have works! Or fruits!

I guess the second thing that really bothers me about using the parables about those not abiding in the vine being burned up, is that first, it is a parable! Second, is that the word abide or μένω (meno) in Greek means "remain." Here is something I copied and pasted. Because it is exactly what I was going to say.

"The word "abide" basically means "to remain." Every Christian remains inseparably linked to Christ in all areas of life. We depend on Him for grace and power to obey. We look obediently to His Word for instruction on how to live. We offer Him our deepest adoration and praise and we submit ourselves to His authority over our lives. In short, Christians gratefully know Jesus Christ is the source and sustainer of their lives.

Abiding in Christ evidences genuine salvation. The Apostle John alluded to that when he referred to defected professors who "went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:19).
People with genuine faith will remain--they won't defect; they won't deny Christ or abandon His truth. Jesus reiterated the importance of abiding as a sign of real faith when He said, "If you abide in My Word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" (John 8:31)."

What does it mean to "abide" in Christ?

Well first you start off by saying let me point out the errors in the above post, and then you go and try to make it as if I misrepresented the scriptures I brought up.

Problem 1:

I am not the one who misrepresented Luke 6:46-49, because in your response all you spoke on really was the first group that I said was true believers in Christ that do not fall away so we did not disagree on that.

But as for the second group it says they had no foundation, meaning their faith is not built on Christ.
They may have heard the word and even accepted it for a little while as the Parable of the Sower and the Seed of Matthew 13:18-23 shows. But they did not end up with salvation/eternal life in this second group !!!

Then you bring in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 which I have no issue with that, and the church I go to just did a sermon on this passage just this past weekend.

Christ is the foundation of our faith, and there is no disagreement there as I have never said anything different.
We can only build on that foundation and how do we do that ? By keeping with His teachings and commands and using them for edification of the body of believers in Christ. Meaning we instruct others in keeping with the sound doctrine of the gospel that Lord gave us, and do not waiver from His teachings.

Apostle Paul tells us any teaching other then what the Lord already gave is preaching a different gospel (Galatians 1:8) and preaching another Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:4). Both of them Paul says bear with them because they are accursed/condemned already.

Problem 2:

Your rendering of 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 has nothing to do about works or no works !!!

It has to do with exactly what it says building on the foundation of Christ, as it is referring to faithfulness to Him.
These are all believers here in this passage and those who do more in the faith will be awarded as such, and those who do not do as much will also receive what they reaped to where some will have their works completely burned up. This shows they still did works but their quality of life they lived in the faith was not always on the right path.


Then you go about speaking on the parables and the bible clearly shows the reason why Jesus gave His teachings in such way is for only the Spiritually minded to understand. The mind govern by the flesh can not understand His ways (1 Corinthians 2:14).

As for abide meaning remain there is no issue with that, but those who have no fruit do not abide/remain in the Lord !!!

Therefore those who do not have fruit do not abide in Christ, which is why they are cut off and sent to the fire to be burned. The outcome at judgment for the unbelievers and disobedient !!!

You spent a lot of words pretty agreeing with half of what I said, and then the rest didn't prove my stance to be in error as what you brought up did not go against anything I said.........

God bless

 

[BenFTW]

-snip-

As for abide meaning remain there is no issue with that, but those who have no fruit do not abide/remain in the Lord !!!

Therefore those who do not have fruit do not abide in Christ, which is why they are cut off and sent to the fire to be burned. The outcome at judgment for the unbelievers and disobedient !!!

-snip-

This is where the accusation of Legalism comes from. Read what you just typed (and I put in bold). You are telling me, I gather, that a believer in Jesus Christ (you can't be cut off if you aren't a part of Him) who fails to perform, or doesn't produce fruits is "cut off and sent to the fire to be burned." In saying this, you heap guilt and condemnation on a believer who feels they are not producing efficiently for the Lord.

In such a statement you have made the children of God look at themselves and not Jesus as their sole dependence for salvation. If you can believe in Jesus, truly believe fully in what He has done on our behalf and then be cast into the pit for something you failed to do then you have made salvation a wage due, and not a gift. There is no other way around it. Remember, you can't be cut off if you aren't on. So you can't throw this to the side saying its to a non-believer.

This is why eternally-gratefull has, probably, been insisting that we share two completely different Gospels and it isn't just a matter of semantics. Indeed if you believe a child of God can be set aside, cast to the pits of hell, by our Heavenly Father then we do share two opposing beliefs. We also share a different revelation of God as Father and Love. Do you truly believe that a child of God, your Heavenly Father, will send His sons and daughters to an eternal fire for a lack of fruit, or even disobedience?

He chastises the disobedient, but eternal fire is not chastisement for there is no restoration there. Any chastisement has restoration in mind, such as casting a person out of the church. The Lord will not send His children to Hell. To even think that... is disheartening. If you believe this, I pray God reveals Himself as the loving Father that He is and you realize your sonship.

 

[Yonah]

Here's what I know: John 3:16,Matt. 6:33-34, Prov.3:5-6, 2 Timothy 2:15, Rom.8:28, Rom 12:1, John 6:44, 1 John 3:4, 2 John 1:6 John 15:10, this is just a start... I realize there is a lot of text here but the point is that scripture interprets scripture and the understanding is given if we ask (John 16:13) (James 1:5) the plan for salvation of man was conceived long before the earth or anyone of us existed, he gave us his word so we could understand it as it applies to us, and although there are many who can help us to better understand the word, it is always well advised to verify everything we may hear, even from our most trusted of advisors on spiritual matters, our Savior made the words of life easy to understand, we are to come to him as a child (not childish, but childlike) he knows what each of us need to hear and learn and when, and it our choice to not only embrace the words of life but to live them, in every facet of our lives, there's really no need for contention, (prov. 13:10). as we all know there are many hurting and searching for the freedom from bondage that only our beloved Savior has to offer, so let us all order our conversation aright and seek His will in our lives and all the lives we touch. shalom

 

[KennethC]

This is where the accusation of Legalism comes from. Read what you just typed (and I put in bold). You are telling me, I gather, that a believer in Jesus Christ (you can't be cut off if you aren't a part of Him) who fails to perform, or doesn't produce fruits is "cut off and sent to the fire to be burned." In saying this, you heap guilt and condemnation on a believer who feels they are not producing efficiently for the Lord.

In such a statement you have made the children of God look at themselves and not Jesus as their sole dependence for salvation. If you can believe in Jesus, truly believe fully in what He has done on our behalf and then be cast into the pit for something you failed to do then you have made salvation a wage due, and not a gift. There is no other way around it. Remember, you can't be cut off if you aren't on. So you can't throw this to the side saying its to a non-believer.

This is why eternally-gratefull has, probably, been insisting that we share two completely different Gospels and it isn't just a matter of semantics. Indeed if you believe a child of God can be set aside, cast to the pits of hell, by our Heavenly Father then we do share two opposing beliefs. We also share a different revelation of God as Father and Love. Do you truly believe that a child of God, your Heavenly Father, will send His sons and daughters to an eternal fire for a lack of fruit, or even disobedience?

He chastises the disobedient, but eternal fire is not chastisement for there is no restoration there. Any chastisement has restoration in mind, such as casting a person out of the church. The Lord will not send His children to Hell. To even think that... is disheartening. If you believe this, I pray God reveals Himself as the loving Father that He is and you realize your sonship.

Well all I can say is you need to take that up in prayer to God then and ask for understanding on this because there is multiple scriptures that speak on being a disobedient servant.

Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25, Luke 12, Hebrews 3-4, Romans 2:6-10, Romans 11:19-22, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Titus 1:16

These are just a few places that show people who profess to believe in the Lord that either do not end up with eternal life, or told if they do not continue properly in the faith they will not.

Look I know some of you don't like this but part of showing God' love is about instructing on all truth in His word, and some of that truth is not just soothing and comforting words but warnings to us believers on how we can and can not walk in the faith.

This is why the greatest commandment to obey is walking in love, because if we walk in love as the Lord showed for all people then everything else will fall in place. This is why He said His yoke is easy and His commandments not burdensome, because walking in love will cover under it anything else that is said to be done. This is what Apostle Paul is showing and explaining in Romans 13:9-11, that by love we will easily uphold and fulfill the rest.

Besides a true believer in the Lord out of love will be obedient to Him !!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is where the accusation of Legalism comes from. Read what you just typed (and I put in bold). You are telling me, I gather, that a believer in Jesus Christ (you can't be cut off if you aren't a part of Him) who fails to perform, or doesn't produce fruits is "cut off and sent to the fire to be burned." In saying this, you heap guilt and condemnation on a believer who feels they are not producing efficiently for the Lord.

In such a statement you have made the children of God look at themselves and not Jesus as their sole dependence for salvation. If you can believe in Jesus, truly believe fully in what He has done on our behalf and then be cast into the pit for something you failed to do then you have made salvation a wage due, and not a gift. There is no other way around it. Remember, you can't be cut off if you aren't on. So you can't throw this to the side saying its to a non-believer.

This is why eternally-gratefull has, probably, been insisting that we share two completely different Gospels and it isn't just a matter of semantics. Indeed if you believe a child of God can be set aside, cast to the pits of hell, by our Heavenly Father then we do share two opposing beliefs. We also share a different revelation of God as Father and Love. Do you truly believe that a child of God, your Heavenly Father, will send His sons and daughters to an eternal fire for a lack of fruit, or even disobedience?

He chastises the disobedient, but eternal fire is not chastisement for there is no restoration there. Any chastisement has restoration in mind, such as casting a person out of the church. The Lord will not send His children to Hell. To even think that... is disheartening. If you believe this, I pray God reveals Himself as the loving Father that He is and you realize your sonship.

Thanks, and Amen.

1. It mocks the grace of God (makes it earned, not freely given)
2. It mocks the character of God (he is not the God of true love he claims to be, he is not the omniscient, all knowing God who knews everything about me from birth to death, and is a God who gives people things and makes guarantees he will not keep)
3. It puffs up men, I am saved because I..... and I.... and I..... and as long as I Continue to ..... I will continue to be saved.

I grew up with people teaching this God and have seen the damage it has done, and how dangerous it is to people. Thats why I fight the way I do against it, It almost destroyed me!