Legalism's Mistake: Confusing Cause & Effect (Sanctification)

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#61
#61
KennethC said:
Look I know some of you don't like this but part of showing God' love is about instructing on all truth in His word, and some of that truth is not just soothing and comforting words
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Take these words. Print them, Go to your mirror. Place them in front of you towards the mirror. and read them.

Now take your own advice.

Your teaching works. Your teaching that one must maintain some degree of action (work) or their eternal life is not secure and can be lost.

Twist it how you want, that's on you, but IF your placing your faith in this "self centered" (I Must perform or else) not Christ based gospel. you will never see heaven,
 
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Hoffco

Guest
#62
#62
To benFTW, Your problem is ,You don't interpret scripture with scripture.! You build your false theology, (Grace alone, Faith alone) upon one sided verses without relating them to the opposite side of the same Bible. The plan of Jesus is, partly, to deceive those who are not elect, they are not given the understanding to believe the truth in order to be saved. Jesus states this very planly in Mt 13:11. God is not as graceful as you think, God gives grace, (power to convert and authority to forgive) and God expects His good work in us, will produce many good works, without which no one will "see the Lord". You wrote you 1st. post without a clear reference to any scripture. This shows me that you are full of human logic and not the Bible. Sorry, to be blunt with you; But, you need to listen to the Word of God. Love to all, Hoffco
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#63
#63
Hoffco said:
To benFTW, Your problem is ,You don't interpret scripture with scripture.! You build your false theology, (Grace alone, Faith alone) upon one sided verses without relating them to the opposite side of the same Bible. The plan of Jesus is, partly, to deceive those who are not elect, they are not given the understanding to believe the truth in order to be saved. Jesus states this very planly in Mt 13:11. God is not as graceful as you think, God gives grace, (power to convert and authority to forgive) and God expects His good work in us, will produce many good works, without which no one will "see the Lord". You wrote you 1st. post without a clear reference to any scripture. This shows me that you are full of human logic and not the Bible. Sorry, to be blunt with you; But, you need to listen to the Word of God. Love to all, Hoffco
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Yes which is why I mentioned previously the reason the Lord Jesus spoke in parables is so that those who have the Holy Spirit (Spiritual minded) could be the only ones who understand what He is saying.

The carnal mind (governed by the flesh) can not understand His ways, and this same carnal mindset is what leads some people to think that Apostle Paul taught differently then what our Lord Jesus taught. But Paul himself said he could not do that without it being a different Jesus and gospel being preached, all he or any of us can do is build on that foundation which includes His words.

We should all read 2 John and take it to heart !!!

God bless
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#64
#64
Hoffco said:
To benFTW, Your problem is ,You don't interpret scripture with scripture.! You build your false theology, (Grace alone, Faith alone) upon one sided verses without relating them to the opposite side of the same Bible. The plan of Jesus is, partly, to deceive those who are not elect, they are not given the understanding to believe the truth in order to be saved. Jesus states this very planly in Mt 13:11. God is not as graceful as you think, God gives grace, (power to convert and authority to forgive) and God expects His good work in us, will produce many good works, without which no one will "see the Lord". You wrote you 1st. post without a clear reference to any scripture. This shows me that you are full of human logic and not the Bible. Sorry, to be blunt with you; But, you need to listen to the Word of God. Love to all, Hoffco
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You people keep making yourself look foolish. Can you show where Ben ever said a child of God would not do works?

WHy do you keep bashing him on a foundation in which he never even claimed was true?

it is sad, that people will not take the time to read, and just assume things not in facts. Your worse than dirty lawyers. Or just like them, I have not figured it out yet.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#65
#65
KennethC said:
Yes which is why I mentioned previously the reason the Lord Jesus spoke in parables is so that those who have the Holy Spirit (Spiritual minded) could be the only ones who understand what He is saying.

The carnal mind (governed by the flesh) can not understand His ways, and this same carnal mindset is what leads some people to think that Apostle Paul taught differently then what our Lord Jesus taught. But Paul himself said he could not do that without it being a different Jesus and gospel being preached, all he or any of us can do is build on that foundation which includes His words.

We should all read 2 John and take it to heart !!!

God bless
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You should stop looking to self. and start looking to Jesus and the cross. And let your heart cry out to him, and stop trying to judge other people who do not even believe what you state they believe.
 
BenFTW

BenFTW

Senior Member
#66
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
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#66
KennethC said:
Well all I can say is you need to take that up in prayer to God then and ask for understanding on this because there is multiple scriptures that speak on being a disobedient servant.

Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25, Luke 12, Hebrews 3-4, Romans 2:6-10, Romans 11:19-22, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Titus 1:16

These are just a few places that show people who profess to believe in the Lord that either do not end up with eternal life, or told if they do not continue properly in the faith they will not.

Look I know some of you don't like this but part of showing God' love is about instructing on all truth in His word, and some of that truth is not just soothing and comforting words but warnings to us believers on how we can and can not walk in the faith.

This is why the greatest commandment to obey is walking in love, because if we walk in love as the Lord showed for all people then everything else will fall in place. This is why He said His yoke is easy and His commandments not burdensome, because walking in love will cover under it anything else that is said to be done. This is what Apostle Paul is showing and explaining in Romans 13:9-11, that by love we will easily uphold and fulfill the rest.

Besides a true believer in the Lord out of love will be obedient to Him !!!
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No longer is Jesus the Savior, but one's own morality, if they hold to such a doctrine as you propose. If love is the means by which we may be saved we are all but lost. The commandment of love is actually the "agape" love and not "philia" love, which is to say the love of God versus the love of man (brotherly affection). We have to love as God loves. Are you able? Are you able to uphold His standard of love, at all times?

Do you not see the striving mindset that comes out of this doctrine? It is self-righteous. If love fulfills all the commandments of the Law that doesn't mean that Law is all of a sudden easy to do. Jesus wasn't like, "Oh, the 613 Laws? Thats easy, just love." People make it seem like the commandment of love some how made the Law easier to fulfill, and it doesn't. The Law requires perfection, and we are by no means perfect. To say nonchalantly all we have to do is walk in love makes the Gospel no different than the world's religions that strive for self-righteousness and makes our salvation no longer of faith but works.

I immediately started examining myself after reading your post. "Do I love perfectly?" My assurance/confidence went from Jesus Christ to myself in a matter of seconds in considering your doctrine. It takes one's eyes off of Jesus and onto one's self. It repulsed me, to think I could find confidence in myself. I am nothing without Christ. I am completely and totally dependent upon Jesus Christ for my salvation and I have no desire to strive in the least. I stand with all those who have ever been saved and I have the righteousness that is of faith. I despise self-righteousness, I am completely inadequate.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#67
#67
BenFTW said:
No longer is Jesus the Savior, but one's own morality, if they hold to such a doctrine as you propose. If love is the means by which we may be saved we are all but lost. The commandment of love is actually the "agape" love and not "philia" love, which is to say the love of God versus the love of man (brotherly affection). We have to love as God loves. Are you able? Are you able to uphold His standard of love, at all times?

Do you not see the striving mindset that comes out of this doctrine? It is self-righteous. If love fulfills all the commandments of the Law that doesn't mean that Law is all of a sudden easy to do. Jesus wasn't like, "Oh, the 613 Laws? Thats easy, just love." People make it seem like the commandment of love some how made the Law easier to fulfill, and it doesn't. The Law requires perfection, and we are by no means perfect. To say nonchalantly all we have to do is walk in love makes the Gospel no different than the world's religions that strive for self-righteousness and makes our salvation no longer of faith but works.

I immediately started examining myself after reading your post. "Do I love perfectly?" My assurance/confidence went from Jesus Christ to myself in a matter of seconds in considering your doctrine. It takes one's eyes off of Jesus and onto one's self. It repulsed me, to think I could find confidence in myself. I am nothing without Christ. I am completely and totally dependent upon Jesus Christ for my salvation and I have no desire to strive in the least. I stand with all those who have ever been saved and I have the righteousness that is of faith. I despise self-righteousness, I am completely inadequate.
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I think people forget. the law of love is universal, it is written into our dna (it is our normal state) this state is what was damaged due to sin. This is the state which left a hole in our very inner being,

God created us to GIVE US HIS COMPLETE LOVE, (our fuel) and in return, we take the excess of what he gave us, and serve everyone around us (We share love)

when that pipeline of Gods love was severed, our whole inner being was short circuited so we could not do the very thing we were created to do. So since we could no longer love (because Gods love was no withheld from us) we could do nothing that was right, we can do nothing righteous, Because we can not LOVE (as God loved)

Adam is proof of this, As long as he was in a relationship with God. God continued to feed Adam this love which was overflowing, Yet adam still sinned (even though he had every ounce of power he needed, and them some, to NOT SIN) and once he sinned, and that pipeline of love was severed. (he did absolutely nothing right) until that pipeline was restored by Gods grace (gen 3)

even then, Adam was never restored to what he had before he fell. Because even though the pipeline of Gods love was restored. He also had his flesh, which can do no good. and these two natures would not battle the rest of his life.

The law (any law) can never tell us how to love, all it can do is expose our weakness, and inability to love completely as God loved, and turn us back to God and seek his power to love.

people have it backwards, The law is not the way to love, Love is the way to obey the law.
 
BenFTW

BenFTW

Senior Member
#68
Oct 7, 2012
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#68
Does anyone have anything else to add on the mistakes of Legalism? What else do you find wrong with it? Is sanctification at the heart of the issue or is it more than that? Is it a lack of faith in the finished work of Jesus? Do they treat salvation like a race where Jesus has passed us the baton and said, "Go for it."? Is the Good News just too good for them?
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#69
#69
BenFTW said:
Does anyone have anything else to add on the mistakes of Legalism? What else do you find wrong with it? Is sanctification at the heart of the issue or is it more than that? Is it a lack of faith in the finished work of Jesus? Do they treat salvation like a race where Jesus has passed us the baton and said, "Go for it."? Is the Good News just too good for them?
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Those are all significant mistakes at the root of it, for sure. But, I am sure there are many more mistakes at the root of legalism. One being a lack of understanding about the New Covenant and the reality that it really is New. That it is not the Old Covenant renewed, reconstituted, refurbished, reformed, restored, modified or amended. Without that proper understanding what often happens is that old covenant concepts and principles are brought over into the new covenant, and/or, new covenant concepts and principles are retroactively applied back onto the old. Neither of which are legitimate options. The end result of the first is Judaized Christianity and of the second, Christianized Judaism.
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#70
#70
Oh, and PRIDE! Though we all are prone to it, the legalist is consumed with it. While unable to see it in themselves, they remarkably have no problem seeing it in others. Of course we can't actually say that out loud or we open ourselves up to the same charge. Wait, I just said it out loud didn't I? Oh well......
 
BenFTW

BenFTW

Senior Member
#71
Oct 7, 2012
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#71
FreeNChrist said:
Oh, and PRIDE! Though we all are prone to it, the legalist is consumed with it. While unable to see it in themselves, they remarkably have no problem seeing it in others. Of course we can't actually say that out loud or we open ourselves up to the same charge. Wait, I just said it out loud didn't I? Oh well......
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Partly being addressed here: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/122502-legalism-true-ear-tickling.html

They get to boast... when in reality God set it up so that no man can boast in himself. Only in Jesus Christ.
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#72
#72
Oh, and this. They never get this...

"..this mystery which is Christ in you your hope of glory" Col. 1:27

Or this....

"Do you not recognize that Jesus Christ is in you?" 2 Cor. 13:5

And definite not this....

"it is no longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me." Gal. 2:20
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#73
#73
BenFTW said:
No longer is Jesus the Savior, but one's own morality, if they hold to such a doctrine as you propose. If love is the means by which we may be saved we are all but lost. The commandment of love is actually the "agape" love and not "philia" love, which is to say the love of God versus the love of man (brotherly affection). We have to love as God loves. Are you able? Are you able to uphold His standard of love, at all times?

Do you not see the striving mindset that comes out of this doctrine? It is self-righteous. If love fulfills all the commandments of the Law that doesn't mean that Law is all of a sudden easy to do. Jesus wasn't like, "Oh, the 613 Laws? Thats easy, just love." People make it seem like the commandment of love some how made the Law easier to fulfill, and it doesn't. The Law requires perfection, and we are by no means perfect. To say nonchalantly all we have to do is walk in love makes the Gospel no different than the world's religions that strive for self-righteousness and makes our salvation no longer of faith but works.

I immediately started examining myself after reading your post. "Do I love perfectly?" My assurance/confidence went from Jesus Christ to myself in a matter of seconds in considering your doctrine. It takes one's eyes off of Jesus and onto one's self. It repulsed me, to think I could find confidence in myself. I am nothing without Christ. I am completely and totally dependent upon Jesus Christ for my salvation and I have no desire to strive in the least. I stand with all those who have ever been saved and I have the righteousness that is of faith. I despise self-righteousness, I am completely inadequate.
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Wrong it is about Jesus because our whole faith can only be built on His foundation..............

His coming in the flesh, death for our sins, and ressurection on the 3rd day, and to keep with the sound doctrine of His teachings and commands.

That is all apart of the foundation of Christ that comes from a true belief in Him !!!

Anything less or other than that is building on a different foundation that is not of Christ.....................
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#74
#74
Kennys posts always make me think of this quote from Major Ian Thomas, and it goes along with the point I was making in my post just before this one above by Kenny.....

"Unless you know Jesus as the risen, living, and indwelling Savior, as a present-tense reality in your own heart and life, then Jesus wants you to keep your mouth shut, because you will not know enough about Him worth saying. "
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#75
#75
KennethC said:
I can understand what you are trying to do and I respect that Ben, but until you start getting on to others who are derailing your threads to keep the false accusations of legalism, works to earn salvationists this will never end.

Even if we come on here and clearly repeat, repeat, repeat, and repeat again our stance it still gets overlooked to keep slapping these bias labels on us.

We do not teach/preach works to earn salvation, we do not preach/teach works to maintain salvation !!!

As a matter of fact I have not seen one person on here in a long time that teaches works or the Mosaic laws have to be obeyed for salvation.

All we do from our side is emphasize on the works that are produced by all true born again believers because they come from the fruit of the Holy Spirit and how even the Lord said in Matthew 7:19 that those without those fruit will be cut off and burned.

Because no fruit of the Spirit shows there is no indwelling of the Holy Spirit in that person, therefore they go hand and hand in the faith of Jesus unto salvation. For this we get labeled as legalist's !!!

Again here is the basis of what we teach and preach:

Works do not get/earn salvation, Works do not maintain salvation, Works though are proof of true born again believer in Christ to salvation.

Anybody who says we teach other than that is miss reading what we said, or they just hate the word works all together and think it is dirty to even mention the word. And I have seen some on here who do try to classify all works the same, sad it really is !!!
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Maybe if everyone stop posting for a bit and just prayed together they would see you and the ok pretty much have the same stance?

The dirt slinging really makes me sad. Gonna go pray for y'all and spend time with family and friends. May everyone remember that we are to listen twice as much as we speak..two ears one mouth and to pray for God will not our own pride to shine forth.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#76
#76
Hoffco said:
To benFTW, Your problem is ,You don't interpret scripture with scripture.! You build your false theology, (Grace alone, Faith alone) upon one sided verses without relating them to the opposite side of the same Bible. The plan of Jesus is, partly, to deceive those who are not elect, they are not given the understanding to believe the truth in order to be saved. Jesus states this very planly in Mt 13:11. God is not as graceful as you think, God gives grace, (power to convert and authority to forgive) and God expects His good work in us, will produce many good works, without which no one will "see the Lord". You wrote you 1st. post without a clear reference to any scripture. This shows me that you are full of human logic and not the Bible. Sorry, to be blunt with you; But, you need to listen to the Word of God. Love to all, Hoffco
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Wow did you just call Jesus a deceiver and God ungrateful??? Or did I misunderstand your words cuz red flags just jumped up.
 
Stephen63

Stephen63

Banned
#77
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
#77
To the Op,
I am not going to address either side of this issue, even though I had several posts marked to do so. What I want to address is the SIN that motivates these threads.

The opening statement "seems" to be innocent enough, yet is slanted with bias. Never mind the subject matter, it is slanted.

Neither the Op, nor others on the Op's side, EVER speak against those on their side that stirs up trouble for the other side. Never.

Instead, the Op & the others put their "likes" on the wicked slanderous remarks that are made by such wicked people. Wicked is what wicked does.

Then, the Op states openly that he agrees & believes the same things as the wicked people. Does the sin of association ring a bell?

In the end, this looks like a "good cop/bad cop routine adjusted to push personal agenda, & of course, to say "I'm right, & you're wrong."

When one of the group (just one, but usually more) is mean spirited, obnoxious, & haughty with their statements about how the opposing person is an uneducated so-&-so, The reader only needs to see that the behavior of these people is truly evil & those that openly agree with them are no better.

Matthew 5:3-12 (KJV) [SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#78
#78
We do not abide in Christ unless He first holds into us. It is all His work for His glory. We just are just His creation for we have died to ourselves and live for Him,..,some people just haven't finished dying to their old sinful self.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#79
#79
Stephen I agree that both sides need to pray and see that it matters how you speak with others and recognize apologize for false assumptions made of others. Misrepresentations, name calling, pride...I remember the Bible speaking against such behavior....and I truly believe if everyone prayed together for understanding and clarity, less lies might be believed as truth, less slander would occur.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#80
#80
BenFTW said:
Does anyone have anything else to add on the mistakes of Legalism? What else do you find wrong with it? Is sanctification at the heart of the issue or is it more than that? Is it a lack of faith in the finished work of Jesus? Do they treat salvation like a race where Jesus has passed us the baton and said, "Go for it."? Is the Good News just too good for them?
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I remember a message in church about 5 years ago. Legalism and licentiousness both come from the same foundation, and that is pride. Sadly neither of them will admit that they have failed to meet Gods standard, and their only hope is Christ. Both have the foundation of I am good enough. I believe in Jesus so he will not condemn me. I do not do these sins, so as Long as I keep myself clean, I will be ok.
 
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