Religion Wars of the Past

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Jun 23, 2015
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I am amazed about forgotten history because I was watching a video about Vlad(Dracula) who fought for the faith of Christianity(Holy Roman Emperor Sigismund ). That lead to Bogomilism , Paulicians, Ottoman Empire, Order of Dragon and the rabbit hole gets deeper and deeper. In other words there has always be battles among different beliefs. It is about POWER! So evil movies about Dracula is about Vlad! WOW! Religion wars of the past just as brutal as today's religion wars. WOW! Blood of innocents! WOW! Christianity vs Muslim vs Jews vs Catholic vs others! Religion wars cost many lives! Hidden history that is not spoken about. If only the stars, oceans, moon, sun, earth, trees can speak about the blood of innocents because religion wars. I wonder what is the numbers(death toll) of innocents during years of religion wars. Time for me stop my ranting because I am shocked! All these religions speak about a PEACEFUL LOVING GOD! Why so much DEATH among the religions!
 
Out of all the worlds different faiths I find it odd and ironic that you never hear of a Buddhist war and yet they don't even believe in God!
 
I am amazed about forgotten history because I was watching a video about Vlad(Dracula) who fought for the faith of Christianity(Holy Roman Emperor Sigismund ). That lead to Bogomilism , Paulicians, Ottoman Empire, Order of Dragon and the rabbit hole gets deeper and deeper. In other words there has always be battles among different beliefs. It is about POWER! So evil movies about Dracula is about Vlad! WOW! Religion wars of the past just as brutal as today's religion wars. WOW! Blood of innocents! WOW! Christianity vs Muslim vs Jews vs Catholic vs others! Religion wars cost many lives! Hidden history that is not spoken about. If only the stars, oceans, moon, sun, earth, trees can speak about the blood of innocents because religion wars. I wonder what is the numbers(death toll) of innocents during years of religion wars. Time for me stop my ranting because I am shocked! All these religions speak about a PEACEFUL LOVING GOD! Why so much DEATH among the religions!


Im not entirely sure what your point is, here? Are you trying to tell us that God must be evil because the beliefs of men have been used against them in order to cause them to kill each other?

If you are against religion, well I am as well :p Have you read the bible, and found who the cause for all those gods that men worship are?


I always get this argument from athiest who want to convince me God is evil. They always say "some wars have been based on religion", and I always respond with "yeah? So?", haha it generally ends there, if I ask them to provide verses from the word of God they always jump to the catholic church, the argument has become extremely predictable now :p


Also, even wars that claim to be about religion are often really about some other thing, like the gain of the powers of the earth, and religion is really just used to lead men into fighting for them, very few wars are /truly/ based on religious beliefs alone, the only kind I can really think of right now is islam....
 
Out of all the worlds different faiths I find it odd and ironic that you never hear of a Buddhist war and yet they don't even believe in God!
There are plenty of buddhists that do believe in demons and pagan gods; buddhism as just a philosophy is relatively rare. And in modern history buddhist fought the tamil hindus for 25 years, a war with thousands of deaths. But I guess you missed that somehow.
 
I am amazed about forgotten history because I was watching a video about Vlad(Dracula) who fought for the faith of Christianity(Holy Roman Emperor Sigismund ). That lead to Bogomilism , Paulicians, Ottoman Empire, Order of Dragon and the rabbit hole gets deeper and deeper. In other words there has always be battles among different beliefs. It is about POWER! So evil movies about Dracula is about Vlad! WOW! Religion wars of the past just as brutal as today's religion wars. WOW! Blood of innocents! WOW! Christianity vs Muslim vs Jews vs Catholic vs others! Religion wars cost many lives! Hidden history that is not spoken about. If only the stars, oceans, moon, sun, earth, trees can speak about the blood of innocents because religion wars. I wonder what is the numbers(death toll) of innocents during years of religion wars. Time for me stop my ranting because I am shocked!All these religions speak about a PEACEFUL LOVING GOD! Why so much DEATH among the religions!

I'm very confused... you seem very upset by Christianity and all other religions also.

So, what are your beliefs?
Are you atheist, agnostic, muslim, buddhist, Chstian, or what exactly?

If you're a Christian, please tell us a little about your denomination, and your beliefs.





 
There are plenty of buddhists that do believe in demons and pagan gods; buddhism as just a philosophy is relatively rare. And in modern history buddhist fought the tamil hindus for 25 years, a war with thousands of deaths. But I guess you missed that somehow.

Buddhists can't, by definition, believe in demons and gods. If they do, they aren't Buddhists. "Issara-nimmana-vada", which in Pali means "supreme being, creator of creation", is an idea explicitly rejected by Buddha in the sutras.

As for war, in the Dhammapada, the earliest collection of the sayings of Buddha, chapter ten reads:

All living things tremble at violence; all living things fear death. Putting one in the place of another, one should not kill nor cause another to kill. All beings tremble at violence; life is dear to all beings. Putting one in the place of another, one should not kill nor cause another to kill. One who, while himself seeking happiness, oppresses with violence other beings, who also desire happiness, will not attain happiness by such. One who, while himself seeking happiness, does not oppress with violence other beings, who also desire happiness, will attain happiness by such. Speak not harshly to anyone, for those thus spoken to might retort. Indeed, angry speech hurts, and retaliation may overtake you. If, like a broken gong, you silence yourself, you have approached wakefulness, for vindictiveness is no longer in you. Just as a cowherd drives the cattle to pasture with a staff, so do old age and death drive the life force of beings hence and fro. When the fool commits evil deeds, he does not properly realize their evil nature. The witless man is tormented by his own deeds, like one burnt by fire. He who inflicts violence on those who are unarmed, and offends those who are inoffensive, will soon come upon one of these ten states: Sharp pain, or disaster, bodily injury, serious illness, or derangement of mind, trouble from the government, or grave charges, loss of relatives, or loss of wealth, or houses destroyed by ravaging fire; that man resides continually in the state of suffering. Neither going about naked, nor with matted locks, nor in filth, nor fasting, nor lying on the ground, nor smearing oneself with ashes and dust, nor sitting on the heels in penance can purify a person who has not overcome doubt. Yet, even if a man be well attired, so long as he is posed, calm, controlled and established in the noble path, having set aside violence towards all beings — he, truly, is a holy man, a renunciate, a monk. Only rarely is there a man in this world who, restrained by modesty, avoids reproach, as a thoroughbred horse avoids the whip. Like a thoroughbred horse touched by the whip, be strenuous, be filled with spiritual yearning. By determination and moral purity, by effort and by meditation, by investigation of the truth, by being rich in knowledge and virtue, and by being mindful, dispel this unlimited suffering. Irrigators regulate the waters, fletchers straighten arrow shafts, carpenters shape wood, and the good control themselves.


So, as you can see, war is very much not part of Buddhist philosophy, nor is the idea of salvation "from above". As Buddha said "be lights unto yourselves, seeking no refuge from outside oneself; let striving diligently be your refuge, the Dhamma your island. Seek no other".


This kind of thing is why traditional Buddhist monks (like the monks in Sri Lanka or the mountains of Norther India, for instance) are never on the news for being violent. In fact, as a child I remember reading stories of Nazis murdering entire monasteries full of monks who didn't fight back; stories of monks who, rather than resort to violence, immolated themselves or practiced dry-death (eating seeds and nuts until the body literally self-mummifies).

Unlike the bible, Quran, or some of the Hindu scripts, Buddhism's text (the Dhammapada) is the only one that contains no instructions to violence whatsoever.
 
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I'm very confused... you seem very upset by Christianity and all other religions also.

So, what are your beliefs?
Are you atheist, agnostic, muslim, buddhist, Chstian, or what exactly?

If you're a Christian, please tell us a little about your denomination, and your beliefs.






He's upset by violence in religion.
 
Im sure there are buddhists who have taken things from other beliefs. Im sure there are buddhists who believe in the existence of spirits.


And Christianity also does not allow war and murder, yet there are people who call themselves Christians who have done it, so it applies to buddhists as well.
 
Buddhists can't, by definition, believe in demons and gods. If they do, they aren't Buddhists. "Issara-nimmana-vada", which in Pali means "supreme being, creator of creation", is an idea explicitly rejected by Buddha in the sutras.

As for war, in the Dhammapada, the earliest collection of the sayings of Buddha, chapter ten reads:

All living things tremble at violence; all living things fear death. Putting one in the place of another, one should not kill nor cause another to kill. All beings tremble at violence; life is dear to all beings. Putting one in the place of another, one should not kill nor cause another to kill. One who, while himself seeking happiness, oppresses with violence other beings, who also desire happiness, will not attain happiness by such. One who, while himself seeking happiness, does not oppress with violence other beings, who also desire happiness, will attain happiness by such. Speak not harshly to anyone, for those thus spoken to might retort. Indeed, angry speech hurts, and retaliation may overtake you. If, like a broken gong, you silence yourself, you have approached wakefulness, for vindictiveness is no longer in you. Just as a cowherd drives the cattle to pasture with a staff, so do old age and death drive the life force of beings hence and fro. When the fool commits evil deeds, he does not properly realize their evil nature. The witless man is tormented by his own deeds, like one burnt by fire. He who inflicts violence on those who are unarmed, and offends those who are inoffensive, will soon come upon one of these ten states: Sharp pain, or disaster, bodily injury, serious illness, or derangement of mind, trouble from the government, or grave charges, loss of relatives, or loss of wealth, or houses destroyed by ravaging fire; that man resides continually in the state of suffering. Neither going about naked, nor with matted locks, nor in filth, nor fasting, nor lying on the ground, nor smearing oneself with ashes and dust, nor sitting on the heels in penance can purify a person who has not overcome doubt. Yet, even if a man be well attired, so long as he is posed, calm, controlled and established in the noble path, having set aside violence towards all beings — he, truly, is a holy man, a renunciate, a monk. Only rarely is there a man in this world who, restrained by modesty, avoids reproach, as a thoroughbred horse avoids the whip. Like a thoroughbred horse touched by the whip, be strenuous, be filled with spiritual yearning. By determination and moral purity, by effort and by meditation, by investigation of the truth, by being rich in knowledge and virtue, and by being mindful, dispel this unlimited suffering. Irrigators regulate the waters, fletchers straighten arrow shafts, carpenters shape wood, and the good control themselves.


So, as you can see, war is very much not part of Buddhist philosophy, nor is the idea of salvation "from above". As Buddha said "be lights unto yourselves, seeking no refuge from outside oneself; let striving diligently be your refuge, the Dhamma your island. Seek no other".


This kind of thing is why traditional Buddhist monks (like the monks in Sri Lanka or the mountains of Norther India, for instance) are never on the news for being violent. In fact, as a child I remember reading stories of Nazis murdering entire monasteries full of monks who didn't fight back; stories of monks who, rather than resort to violence, immolated themselves or practiced dry-death (eating seeds and nuts until the body literally self-mummifies).

Unlike the bible, Quran, or some of the Hindu scripts, Buddhism's text (the Dhammapada) is the only one that contains no instructions to violence whatsoever.
Ok, tell that too shamanism practising tibetans (etc)
 
Ok, tell that too shamanism practising tibetans (etc)

Yea but they're Shamanic Tibetans. They're not Buddhists. That's sort of my point. You can call them Buddhists if you want, but if a Buddhist is a person who follows the Buddha's instructions, then they aren't Buddhists. The Dalai Lama is a Tibetan Buddhist, for instance, precisely because (partly) he's not a Shaman, a God believer or a warmonger -- he follows the precepts of Buddhism, which explicitly and clearly teach against theism, war and violence.
 
The Dalai Lama is a Tibetan Buddhist, for instance, precisely because (partly) he's not a Shaman, a God believer or a warmonger -- he follows the precepts of Buddhism, which explicitly and clearly teach against theism, war and violence.


Haha, yup, all those who believe in a god of some sort are all warmongerers. Alright then.
 
Haha, yup, all those who believe in a god of some sort are all warmongerers. Alright then.

But they're not. And that's not what I said. I'm not the type of person who would say something like that. What I did say is that the Dhammapada is the only significant religious text I am aware of, that teaches against violence in every single situation. However, that doesn't mean that I believe everyone who belongs to any other faith is a warmonger. I know Christians and Muslims who aren't warmongers.
 
Yea but they're Shamanic Tibetans. They're not Buddhists. That's sort of my point. You can call them Buddhists if you want, but if a Buddhist is a person who follows the Buddha's instructions, then they aren't Buddhists. The Dalai Lama is a Tibetan Buddhist, for instance, precisely because (partly) he's not a Shaman, a God believer or a warmonger -- he follows the precepts of Buddhism, which explicitly and clearly teach against theism, war and violence.
Ever heard of syncretism? No need to lecture the buddhists too about what they should and should not believe, just stick to lecturing christians, you're way better at it anyway. :rolleyes:
 
Ever heard of syncretism? No need to lecture the buddhists too about what they should and should not believe, just stick to lecturing christians, you're way better at it anyway. :rolleyes:

Syncretism creates new religions that diverge from old traditions, Didymos, which is exactly why the syncretized religions are fundamentally different from the religions they came from. For instance, blending Roman mythology and the teachings of the Nazarenes is why being "Catholic" is not the same as being "Nazarite" or as being "a worshiper of per deos immortalis", and it's the same reason why "Shamanistic Tibetan" is not the same as "Theravada Buddhist".

The Dhammapada (the words of Guatama Buddha) contains no instruction to war, or to practice shamanism for that matter (shamanism, which is intrinsically about contacting transcendent spirits, which the Buddha of course discounted as useless), quite like how the words of Jesus contain no instruction to venerate Mary or to dress little girls up in wedding gowns and send them to confirmation.

That syncretism changes and warps central philosophies does not disqualify my point, Didymos; it proves it.
 
Syncretism creates new religions that diverge from old traditions, Didymos, which is exactly why the syncretized religions are fundamentally different from the religions they came from. For instance, blending Roman mythology and the teachings of the Nazarenes is why being "Catholic" is not the same as being "Nazarite" or as being "a worshiper of per deos immortalis", and it's the same reason why "Shamanistic Tibetan" is not the same as "Theravada Buddhist".

The Dhammapada (the words of Guatama Buddha) contains no instruction to war, or to practice shamanism for that matter (shamanism, which is intrinsically about contacting transcendent spirits, which the Buddha of course discounted as useless), quite like how the words of Jesus contain no instruction to venerate Mary or to dress little girls up in wedding gowns and send them to confirmation.

That syncretism changes and warps central philosophies does not disqualify my point, Didymos; it proves it.

Did the people involved in those wars consider themselves buddhist in any way?
 
Did the people involved in those wars consider themselves buddhist in any way?

It doesn't make them Buddhist, and it's not comparible to Christians who profess Christianity and kill people, for the simple fact that the Christian bible does contain instructions to violence, in parts, whereas the Dhammapada (the Buddhist "bible") does not.

Look, if a man, let's call him Pogo, constantly says the phrase "put yourself in another's place, and do not kill", and talks continuously about how killing is against natural law, about how every living thing strives to survive, and about how killing is not the path to peace, ever, without fail, without exception, and when Pogo dies, his followers write down all these sayings -- sayings that Pogo lived by -- into a collection of sayings, wisdoms, and ways of life, that would become collectively known as "Pogoism", then we have "Pogoism", and Pogoism is intrinsically nonviolent.

Now let's say a hundred years later a man kills another man and shouts over his dead body "I'm a Pogoist!" Well, he can't possibly be a Pogoist, if Pogoism is intrinsically nonviolent, because this man has just killed someone.

The issue with applying the same logic to Christianity or Islam is this: Christianity and Islam both contain instructions in certain places, that tell people to be violent -- that condone violence. And this is a large part of why many irreligious people view Christianity as contradictory -- it has opposing concepts. There is the concept of God's unlimited love, contrasted with his burning of sinners for eternity; there is the concept of God's forgiveness, contrasted with his relentless and merciless punishments in hell; there is the contrast of the instruction "thou shalt not kill", with the fact that many "righteous men" in the bible waged genocide at God's command. These are genuine issues within the bible, but these issues do not exist in the Dhammapada -- it never contradicts itself in this way. It opposes violence in all cases.

Therefore, we can safely conclude that any person who professes to be Buddhist (a follower of the noble eightfold path, and an adherent of the Dhamma), yet murders another being, is not Buddhist. There is no discussion there, because there is no room for misinterpretation in regards to violence, in the Dhammapada -- the instruction against violence is absolutely, incontrovertibly clear, and it is never contradicted, not even once.
 
It doesn't make them Buddhist, and it's not comparible to Christians who profess Christianity and kill people, for the simple fact that the Christian bible does contain instructions to violence, in parts, whereas the Dhammapada (the Buddhist "bible") does not.

Actually it is the same, because Christ never told us to go and kill either. Does the bible have stories of war? Yeah. Are there times that God had men kill other men? Yeah. But no where does Christ tell us to go and kill, but tells us to let the world kill us instead.

So yeah, people who claim to be Christian who have gathered together to kill is the same as people who have called themselves buddhist who have, it goes contrary to what they have been taught.



Also, for this whole "religion makes people kill" thing, that totally works for every single thing in the world. Race, money, resources, nationality, like everything in the world. Thats not God who does this. Religion does, definitely. And I have said before that Im not a big supporter of religion. But God Himself isnt what makes all our wars, and there is nothing in Christ's teachings that call for war and murder.


And also, atheist do evil deeds too. Atheist have killed, stolen, and cheated others. They have abused people weaker than then, they have spoken out in hate of others. Atheist rulers have used their places of power to do evil things to other nations. They are fallen, just like every group in the world.

The truth is, even if the whole world went atheist, youd still have wars, and murder, and theivery, and hate, and all the things that make the world an awful place. And, if you ARE an atheist, you literally believe that man made up all the religions in the world, so you cant actually blame God, but the real nature behind men, the fact that they kill and steal and rape and cause all kinds of horrible things.

That being said, I know there are spirits in the world who are leading us to do these evil things in order to lead us to our destruction, and yeah I would say that they definitely use religion to do just that, then they use the fact that the people are following them in order to motivate others into a false idea in order to lead them away from God and call Him evil without actually understanding His will in order to make sure they kill them too. Its a pretty horrible thing happening in our world.
 
The issue with applying the same logic to Christianity or Islam is this:


Also, why do you try to persuade me that islam is a religion that calls for war? I am already well aware that it is a religion that leads men to kill each other, and speak out against it. Do you think that Christians are on the same side as muslims? Because their god teaches them a much different doctrine than ours does.
 
I have a friend who is a Soto Zen Buddhist. He is counting 40 years in his studies and meditation. He has recently joined a Quaker group, where he has finally been given to understand "the Light." That there is something more than his years of Buddhism has taught him about there being "nothing."

Plus he admitted that in 40 years, he has not been able to forgive his adopted parents for their abuse of him and how angry and lacking in compassion he has been.

I am sure this Buddhist friend tried very hard to reach the goals and ideals of Buddhism. He studied under many different teachers in Asia. But turns out he is human, just like the rest of us, Omni.

Only Christ can really change our hearts and lives. I keep praying for my friend, that he will continue to move towards finding Christ, and the peace and forgiveness only God can bring.

Because Buddhism is a self centered religion, only concerned with achieving a state where the person is able to stop being reincarnated. I have seen movies, and people thinking they are being blessed for giving to the monks who are begging. How much better for the monks to be giving to those who are hungry, sick and poor. And how much better to walk in the light of Christ, instead of the goal of getting rid of self.