ANTI-Women

[Yeraza_Bats]

I will do my best to bring light to submission biblically.
No one can force submission and say God said to submit. Godly submission is a voluntary act. If a man loves his wife like Jesus loves the church and she is a godly woman submission is automatic. Rather we like it or not we all submit to someone, be it home, work, or law. People who do not understand God like submission for the most part are afraid they are no longer in control which no one likes to feel someone else is in control of them. It does not mean that the wife has no opinion ( a good read on godly submission of the wife is proverbs 31). Godly submission is not giving another person control over you but permitting them to care for your well being. That is what the husband is to do for his family, care for them so much that he will give up his life to make them safe.

I definitely agree, anyone who doesnt see leadership as a form of service is not leading in the righteous way.


Christ came to have us follow Him, and even though He is our King, He did many things for our sake, and not for His. If a man wants to lead a family, he should definitely consider "what would Jesus do?"

 

[VioletReigns]

I will do my best to bring light to submission biblically.
No one can force submission and say God said to submit. Godly submission is a voluntary act. If a man loves his wife like Jesus loves the church and she is a godly woman submission is automatic. Rather we like it or not we all submit to someone, be it home, work, or law. People who do not understand God like submission for the most part are afraid they are no longer in control which no one likes to feel someone else is in control of them. Godly submission is not giving another person control over you but permitting them to care for your well being. That is what ah husband is to do for his family, care for them so much that he will give up his life to make them safe.

Hello Brother iwant2serve! It's so nice to see you here today. I always enjoy fellowshipping with you in Christian chat. Jesus' love truly shines out from you! Blessings to you and your beloved wife today! ♥

You said in your post above that godly submission is a voluntary act, and I once thought the same. But the Lord has since proven to me otherwise. It is the difference between following the instructions of the Teacher and actually becoming one with the Savior and being the very vessel in which He Himself performs His will. The first requires my trying to obey, the second is the reality of Jesus making me obedient. The first requires me doing something, the second is actually witnessing Jesus doing the impossible in me. \/

One is a fleshly temporal existence, the other is a spiritual eternal reality. If we keep our eyes on Jesus, we can't help but follow Him. If our eyes are on the temporal, we will keep striving in the flesh. But Jesus IS keeping us from falling. Jesus IS making us into His image. Jesus IS giving us His love for one another. Jesus IS making us holy vessels. Jesus IS doing His will in us right at this moment. We would be fools not to believe Him. That is how we l♥ve God, by believing Him and resting in Him. And that is how we can love others like Jesus does, by treating them the way He treats us. Loving unconditionally.

 

[VioletReigns]

Your sympathy should go to her husband, not her (Proverbs 21:9 and 25:24)

A judgment like that against Mary’s acquaintance isn't coming from the Spirit of Jesus Christ. Jesus doesn’t condemn people who haven’t yet come to the knowledge of life in Christ Jesus. Jesus believes so much that people will come to Him that He died on the Cross for them all. We can also believe for them.

Remember that in Genesis 3:6 Eve gave to Adam and he did eat (submit).. I suspect God reversed the order of things after that?

Jesus said that by one man (Adam) sin came into the world. Jesus did not say by one woman (Eve). So to blame Eve is wrong. In fact, to blame Adam is fruitless as well. God created Adam and Eve exactly as He planned, knowing full well they would fall. God purposed it that way. Do you think it shocked God that Adam disobeyed? Don’t you realize God knew exactly what He was doing? The Lord God is perfect in all of His ways. God didn’t create Adam imperfectly. From the beginning, everything went according to God’s plan and is continuing to this very day.

Marriage is when 2 people are joined together to become one, all the trouble starts when they try to decide which one.

"The husband is the head of the home, and the wife is the neck. The neck supports the head, and helps the head to fulfill its duties"

Marriage is two people literally becoming one in God's sight. How can one person be divided against himself or herself? It’s impossible! The head is the husband, the wife is the body, SPIRITUALLY, not physically. The Lord is the Spirit Who makes them one person in Him. Neither can function effectively without the other spiritually. Neither are more important than the other. We are talking spiritual matters, not flesh. God said it’s a mystery because it is a spiritual reality, not a flesh situation. You can’t assume you understand with your carnal mind because your flesh cannot receive God’s truth.

Here’s a tip: If you’re judging matters with your mental intellect or with what you see with your fleshly eyes, or what you “feel” in your consciousness, you’re way off track. If you are looking at people and situations only through the reality of Jesus Christ Himself, you can see the truth of God.

We can’t incorporate our fleshly understanding with God’s Spiritual Truth.

Where God is speaking to husbands in the Holy Word, God is talking to you married men personally and individually. Where God is speaking to wives in His Holy Word, God is talking to you married women personally and individually. God is not speaking to us collectively. He is speaking to each of us on a very personal and intimate basis. When our eyes are open to that reality, we will be able to see what the Lord is really saying to our spiritual minds about His relationship with us. Because that’s what marriage represents: Christ making you one with Him.

 

[Omni]

I have someone in my friend circle who decided to write me a letter about how I was anti-women because I made a comment about how women should submit in a marriage she wrote that it "sickens" her and I honestly feel so bad and hurt by this. Should I apologize for something I believe?

You should point out that you believe Christian women should submit in a marriage, since Christianity explicitly teaches that. As for your friend, if she's not Christian, then she's under no obligation to live by Christian rules. It's not really right for you to posit that all women (or all people, in fact) should burden themselves with your commitment to God -- it's your commitment, your faith, and your decision, but it is not all women's commitment, all women's faith, and all women's decision. It's important that you make that distinction.

You've got every right to submit to your husband, every right to believe that it's the right way to live, ever right to follow the rules in the bible, if that's your choice, but you don't have any right to make that choice for everyone else.

I hope that doesn't sound too harsh, but it's important that I make that point and that I make it quite firmly. Your faith in God's rules does not extend you authority over every other woman's marriage. Perhaps that's where people get offended. When you say "all women must live by the rules that I, myself, have chosen to live by", you attempt to force people into a faith they don't want. That's probably why your friend got mad about it. Especially nowadays.

I mean, let's be honest, for centuries women were treated like dogs by the church and by their husbands. It's not even a hundred years ago that women didn't have any civil rights at all. So a lot of women may see statements like yours as attempts to negate social progress.

 

[GuessWho]

QUOTE=Omni;2303526]I mean, let's be honest, for centuries women were treated like dogs by the church and by their husbands. It's not even a hundred years ago that women didn't have any civil rights at all. So a lot of women may see statements like yours as attempts to negate social progress.[/QUOTE]

Honestly, I don't think the part I put in bold is honest at all.

A shallow historical research of the United Kingdom (I say U.K because this is where you are from) will prove you wrong.

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

You should point out that you believe Christian women should submit in a marriage, since Christianity explicitly teaches that. As for your friend, if she's not Christian, then she's under no obligation to live by Christian rules. It's not really right for you to posit that all women (or all people, in fact) should burden themselves with your commitment to God -- it's your commitment, your faith, and your decision, but it is not all women's commitment, all women's faith, and all women's decision. It's important that you make that distinction.

You've got every right to submit to your husband, every right to believe that it's the right way to live, ever right to follow the rules in the bible, if that's your choice, but you don't have any right to make that choice for everyone else.

I hope that doesn't sound too harsh, but it's important that I make that point and that I make it quite firmly. Your faith in God's rules does not extend you authority over every other woman's marriage. Perhaps that's where people get offended. When you say "all women must live by the rules that I, myself, have chosen to live by", you attempt to force people into a faith they don't want. That's probably why your friend got mad about it. Especially nowadays.

I mean, let's be honest, for centuries women were treated like dogs by the church and by their husbands. It's not even a hundred years ago that women didn't have any civil rights at all. So a lot of women may see statements like yours as attempts to negate social progress.

Yeah, these are the kind of people who would tell a Christian that something like homosexuality is something that no one should be allowed to argue, or be upset by being told to accept. But when a Christian talks about how letting a man take charge of the family is good for a family, they will claim theyre offended, and that no one should ever have to hear this.


They have absolute moral authority to command us, all while complaining for generations of commands from Christians.


No one is in the wrong for sharing the word of God, and no one should be shamed for it. They can continue doing what they want, but they will deal with it in the end.

 

[mpaper345]

The marriage between a man and a woman should be God involved,so for the woman to listen to the man,it would be as if she is listening to God,because the marriage is supposed to be according to God's will,not man's will,therefore the man cannot glory according to his agenda.

 

[Omni]

I mean, let's be honest, for centuries women were treated like dogs by the church and by their husbands. It's not even a hundred years ago that women didn't have any civil rights at all. So a lot of women may see statements like yours as attempts to negate social progress.

Honestly, I don't think the part I put in bold is honest at all.

A shallow historical research of the United Kingdom (I say U.K because this is where you are from) will prove you wrong.

[/QUOTE]

Not really. First of all, I live on the island of Ireland, which includes Northern Ireland and the Republic or Ireland. Northern Ireland is a stolen territory that is now under the rule of the United Kingdom, while the Republic of Ireland is not. I hold citizenship in both those places.

Secondly, throughout history both the church and the governments of European countries have oppressed women. Under the Greek empire for instance, women were given little or no education and often married off at puberty to grown men. Under Roman law, a husband owned his wife; he could chastise her to death if he wished. Under the rule of the Roman Catholic Church, up until only a few centuries ago, women were killed and tortured many times more often than men, often accused of heresy, witchcraft or seduction and sorcery. Women, in such times, were quite clearly under the authority of men in both cultural and religious terms.

Contrast that with Irish pagan culture (which the Catholic church tried to utterly destroy through torture, violence and hate) -- the Gaels taught girls alongside boys (in the arts, sciences and in combat), and women fought alongside men in battle. The Druids and Druidesses comprised the intellectual elite of Celtic society, and Celts, even in their faiths, retained a strong place for women, who, often, were rulers and chieftains. What did the Christians do in Ireland in the 1700s? They destroyed much of that culture in favour of total patriarchy. It wasn't long ago in Britain and Ireland that (under British common law) you could legally beat your wife, to correct her for wrongdoing, but only if the stick was no thicker than a thumb.

Look at it: the history of Britain and the Church is rife with maltreatment of women. The Prima Nocta in Scotland (which allowed English nobles to sleep with Scottish brides on their wedding nights) is one example, another is in the public executions and tortures of women who went against Christian moral teachings. The submission of women under their husband's rule, and the inferiority of women under religious teaching, is a continuous theme throughout all Judeo-Christian history. If you want any more evidence of the place of women in British Christian society: It wasn't until the 1920's that women in the UK and Ireland could even vote.

 

[MarcR]

That might read "righteous" on the surface to some, but in the reality of Christ Jesus, you are judging things according to the flesh. The trials of this life are to be expected as God uses all situations to bring people to His knowledge and to set people free.

Jesus didn't walk this earth approaching people to criticize and judge them. People were drawn to Him by His living example. Jesus draws men unto Him, He doesn't walk around looking for unholy people to accuse and make them feel unworthy.

You made a public judgment:
"many women do not give pleasing God a high priority in their lives"
"to many of them, women's lib is important"

According to Matthew 7:2, you just exposed yourself. You publicly announced that there are some women unacceptable in your fleshly sight. Your quotes did not come from the Spirit of Christ Jesus. The Lord wouldn't even judge a woman caught in adultery. Jesus said He doesn't condemn, and yet you condemn "some women" according to your judgment.

The reason people recoil from such legalistic terminology (submit, obey, humble, convict, confess, repent) is because of those who preach God’s Law from the flesh point of view. They preach that obedience is a duty, as if our flesh will ever desire to obey God. The flesh (carnal man) is direct opposition to God. That’s why we’re not supposed to judge one another according to appearance, the Word says. We are to keep our eyes on Jesus and His Holy Spirit will draw people to Him. So long as you have your eyes on the outward man, so long as you judge people, they will not see Jesus in you. They will see YOU!

If you have spiritual ears to hear, you would already know it’s impossible for the flesh to please God. Going through the motions of obedience is not holy surrender. Conditioning yourself according to church doctrine is not holy surrender. Looking at Christ Jesus and seeing people according to His grace is the only way to surrender so that He can draw people to Himself.

If you see people as good vs bad, holy vs unholy, rather than God’s handiwork makes you a judge. You can quote scripture to high heaven and speak in all manner of religious language and it won't hold a tiny flame to the truth of God. It'll burn up like wood, hay and stubble because it is absolutely useless. Obedience like a slave doesn't make a man free in Jesus.

If Jesus Christ Himself doesn't expect us to obey Him like a slave, why would you even imagine God wants people to make themselves slaves to obey what you say they should obey? Seriously, all we need to do is keep our eyes upon our Savior Jesus and listen to His voice to us and let His Holy Spirit do the working out in us so people can see Him.

Christ Jesus makes a person set free in the spirit only by His grace: His unfailing, unmerited love. If people can't see that in you, all the scripture quoting and religious preaching in the world ain't gonna open their eyes to God.

Violet,

You said:
You made a public judgment:
"many women do not give pleasing God a high priority in their lives"
"to many of them, women's lib is important"

The NT speaks of two types of judgement:

1) διακρίνω discernment to decide right from wrong or decide worth or value.

This is the judgement that all believers are called to; and should be Spirit led.

2) κρίνω condemnation to try at law, to punish, to condemn

This is the judgement that believers are instructed to avoid. It is reserved to God, and to those who are appointed to the task by Society.

In my statement I might as well have said some people as some women since it is equally true of some men. I said some women because of the context of the thread; NOT because I thought it was a female trait.

It was women who were hurting Mary's feelings and causing her to consider apology.

It is indeed true that "many women do not give pleasing God a high priority in their lives"
"to many of them, women's lib is important"

If you still have an issue with my statement come to Salem Oregon and I will meet you and introduce you to as many as it takes to convince you.

 

[didymos]

I have someone in my friend circle who decided to write me a letter about how I was anti-women because I made a comment about how women should submit in a marriage she wrote that it "sickens" her and I honestly feel so bad and hurt by this. Should I apologize for something I believe?

Why apologize for what's essentially God's will? (Rom. 1:16)

 

[Galahad]

How can you be anti-women, if you ARE a woman?

Maybe by being transgender gender and transminded gender. A person might get lost and confused with all that they've transed in their life. They've gotten confused in all their transending gendering that they've been going through. It could happen. Hope you follow this.

 

[atwhatcost]

It would be so much easier and less controversial if the Bible used the word (serve) rather than submit... "Wives, serve your husbands." Hmm... On second thought, maybe not.

Soylent Green all over again!

To Serve Man all over again!

 

[MarcR]

You may want to read some of Marys other posts on the subject.I think she is a sweet person but somewhat misguided on submission. Some things I can agree with but you have to be careful how you preach and teach this subject. As Ive said Ive seen a lot of abuse with these Bible verses. And a lot of those woman are no longer Christians.

Kaylagrl,

I have read many of Mary's other posts on submission; and I agree that from my perspective some of her posts are indeed misguided. My point of view here is that Mary is a woman who actively shares her Scripture based convictions. I think all believers would do well to as actively share their own convictions. If in time the Holy Spirit leads Mary to moderate her convictions to a less or non-misguided position I would commend that as well.

 

[atwhatcost]

You should definitely NOT apologize for a stand based on Scripture.

You can explain that your point of view is based on your belief in the authority of God's Word.

If true, you can say that you support equal treatment for women in the workplace.

You should understand that many women do not give pleasing God a high priority in their lives; and to many of them, women's lib is important. That commitment on their part is not personally directed at you; so you should learn not to be hurt by it.

You do well to feel bad about it; and you should pray for their salvation if they are unsaved or for them to have a more commited walk with the Lord if they are saved.

I'm a firm believer in women's lib. (Real women's lib. Not this hooey taught now. Equal pay for equal work because I was told, even in the mid 1990's that I didn't deserve equal pay as a co-worker with the same job was getting because he had a family. Um, family? Him and his wife. Equal to my family, except it's me and hubby. lol) And I'd like it to be equal (not to be confused with women are the same as men) everywhere -- in and out of the work place.

It really is possible to be both a women's libber and a believer.

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

Maybe by being transgender gender and transminded gender. A person might get lost and confused with all that they've transed in their life. They've gotten confused in all their transending gendering that they've been going through. It could happen. Hope you follow this.

Ah yeah, I was once 100% hateful of the male gender, yeah It is possible, this world is sending out all kinds of evil messages and doctrines, and leading everyone into rebellion and evil doing. It is pretty awful.

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

I'm a firm believer in women's lib. (Real women's lib. Not this hooey taught now. Equal pay for equal work because I was told, even in the mid 1990's that I didn't deserve equal pay as a co-worker with the same job was getting because he had a family. Um, family? Him and his wife. Equal to my family, except it's me and hubby. lol) And I'd like it to be equal (not to be confused with women are the same as men) everywhere -- in and out of the work place.

It really is possible to be both a women's libber and a believer.

My mom and I were talking about this today, the idea that women wouldnt be paid as much as men is not biblical at all, and a woman should be paid equally. Not every family has a man who can provide for their family, mine didnt. So yeah, a woman should obviously be paid the same amount as a man, if they are doing the same job, yes.

There is no REAL justification for that

 

[MarcR]

I'm a firm believer in women's lib. (Real women's lib. Not this hooey taught now. Equal pay for equal work because I was told, even in the mid 1990's that I didn't deserve equal pay as a co-worker with the same job was getting because he had a family. Um, family? Him and his wife. Equal to my family, except it's me and hubby. lol) And I'd like it to be equal (not to be confused with women are the same as men) everywhere -- in and out of the work place.

It really is possible to be both a women's libber and a believer.

Lynn,

I fully agree and I have no issue with women's lib; in fact I support most of the aims of that movement.

The accusation that Mary's stance on submission was anti-women rightly or wrongly brought to mind the women's lib movement. If women's lib is not involved in the issue; it was an honest mistake.

 

[VioletReigns]

Violet,

You said:
You made a public judgment:
"many women do not give pleasing God a high priority in their lives"
"to many of them, women's lib is important"

The NT speaks of two types of judgement:

1) διακρίνω discernment to decide right from wrong or decide worth or value.

This is the judgement that all believers are called to; and should be Spirit led.

2) κρίνω condemnation to try at law, to punish, to condemn

This is the judgement that believers are instructed to avoid. It is reserved to God, and to those who are appointed to the task by Society.

In my statement I might as well have said some people as some women since it is equally true of some men. I said some women because of the context of the thread; NOT because I thought it was a female trait.

It was women who were hurting Mary's feelings and causing her to consider apology.

It is indeed true that "many women do not give pleasing God a high priority in their lives"
"to many of them, women's lib is important"

If you still have an issue with my statement come to Salem Oregon and I will meet you and introduce you to as many as it takes to convince you.

As per our conversation in months past, I can assure you that I still have zero interest in meeting you in person.

 

[BenFTW]

As per our conversation in months past, I can assure you that I still have zero interest in meeting you in person.

Did it get cold in here?

 

[VioletReigns]

Did it get cold in here?

Nope. Not trying to be cold, brother Ben. I just don't think it's appropriate for a married man to suggest I meet him in person, ya know?