Three major things the legalistic Pharisees didn't recognize.

[just-me]

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. Matthew 23:1-3

Right away, we see something drastically wrong here. When Jesus spoke of the Pharisees having sat themselves down "in the chair of Moses", He was simply saying that when they instruct you from the writings of Moses, listen to and obey those instructions.

Something else we notice here; the Pharisees expected others to obey the Law but always found reasons as to why they did not have to themselves. Everything was done to attract the approval and attention of others. The approval of God took a back seat.

In today's world they would be the ones to carefully watch the opinion polls and then try to do and say those things which would garner them the most respect.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Matthew 23:15

By prescribing their own doctrines, traditions and creeds, the Pharisees were actually hindering others from truly accepting God's rule in their lives. They had formulated their own standards of right and wrong. Much like today, where we are witnessing a casting off of God's moral instructions, ethical and doctrinal standards in favor of the standards of men. How seldom it is for us today that we appeal to the only sound standard of right and wrong; the complete word of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i see even after a long night to think it over, He still refuses to humble himself and answer the applicable question. Yawn!

 

[just-me]

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Matthew 23:23

So the original question in the OP which hasn't been answered by anyone but me, "Where can we find judgment, mercy, and faith in the Old Covenant law that God gave to Israel via Moses?" Of course the scriptures I quoted are not in context with each other, so I guess those scriptures don't apply even when I make no personal comment as to how I believe they relate. Evidently God's word is out of context with other parts of God's word.

My answer to the OP

Yes, exactly! You can quote Scripture incorrectly, when you so a word search, like "mercy" or "righteousness" then post every verse that has one of those words in it. Each one of those verses is out of context and you continually use them to support a false theology.

Each verse has to be taken in context. That means the verses around it, the chapter it is in, the book it is in, the covenant it is in. The writer, the era, etc are all part of that.

You constantly commit bad hermeneutics, by pulling verses out of context. You are judging the New Testament by the Old Testament, instead of the Old Testament as the source for the fulfillment in the New Testament. And most important - by who Jesus Christ is, what he came to do, and his victory on the cross.

You can quote single verses out of context till the cows come home, and it will still NOT make your erroneous doctrines correct!

i see even after a long night to think it over, He still refuses to humble himself and answer the applicable question. Yawn!

 

[ember]

===================================================================

ember,
'your [post was we think, even more Biblical than you may realize - you under-estimated yourself....
in the older Hebrew Language, when the statement was made, 'you shall love the Lord your God
with all of your heart, soul and mind, 'heart wasn't understood as it is today', it was the total
intellectual capacity of the mind. if someone was head-over-heels in love with someone back then,
they wouldn't say, I love you with all of my heart, they would say, I love you with all of my kidneys!lol

1TIM.1:7.
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

so, our Father gives us a sound mind, coupled with the Holy Spirit, and through this we can prove all things
and obtain a good understanding - and the things that we are yet to comprehend or understand, He will
give us the gift of Revelation at some point in our journey....we are so thankful that there is so much to
learn, live, share, Love, and look forward to........ROMANS 8:24.

whoah! thanks so much for this

for the last week or so, God in His mercy, has been confirming His word to me in different ways because I am walking a path I have not walked on before

he knows how to encourage us...so thank you so much!

you know, this is the type of thing this forum needs..this is real Christian fellowship...yes, we can find it here, but it can be like digging for gold, eh?

 

[Brother_Don]

Genesis 26:4-5, And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all of these countries; and in thy seed shall all nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

 

[ember]

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. Matthew 23:1-3

Right away, we see something drastically wrong here. When Jesus spoke of the Pharisees having sat themselves down "in the chair of Moses", He was simply saying that when they instruct you from the writings of Moses, listen to and obey those instructions.

Something else we notice here; the Pharisees expected others to obey the Law but always found reasons as to why they did not have to themselves. Everything was done to attract the approval and attention of others. The approval of God took a back seat.

In today's world they would be the ones to carefully watch the opinion polls and then try to do and say those things which would garner them the most respect.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Matthew 23:15

By prescribing their own doctrines, traditions and creeds, the Pharisees were actually hindering others from truly accepting God's rule in their lives. They had formulated their own standards of right and wrong. Much like today, where we are witnessing a casting off of God's moral instructions, ethical and doctrinal standards in favor of the standards of men. How seldom it is for us today that we appeal to the only sound standard of right and wrong; the complete word of God.

just no

none of the above applies to what we are saying regarding the grace of God

it would be beneficial, IMO, if you understood that you are basically saying you are better than those who do not agree with you

you will not answer Ben, which is questionable...why would you ignore him? he isn't rude or nasty

if there are pharisees or religious zealots in this forum, it would not be those of us who understand the teachings in the book of Romans

we have never said nor do we agree with the postion many of you works based faith folks seem to have...and that would be that it is ok to continue in sin and do whatever you want as long as you have mouthed some sort of acceptance with regards to God's gift of eternal life through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ

the word very plainly states that if a person puts themself under law, they are accursed because all those who try to keep the law, which is impossible to do, will break the law and that puts one immediately under a death sentence

So the original question in the OP which hasn't been answered by anyone but me, "Where can we findjudgment, mercy, and faith in the Old Covenant law that God gave to Israel via Moses?" Of course the scriptures I quoted are not in context with each other, so I guess those scriptures don't apply even when I make no personal comment as to how I believe they relate. Evidently God's word is out of context with other parts of God's word.

seriously? better to let another pat you on the back then do so yourself

we are not to esteem ourselves so high and certainly not above others and look down our noses at them

can you not see you are basically doing what you ascribe to the pharisees? you are constantly saying you are better than anyone else!

I say the above hoping you might give it some thought...I don't want to argue or hurt anyone, but brother, you need to hear it and I pray you listen or start to listen

 

[just-me]

Another aspect of what the Pharisees omitted.

We agree that the New Testament is not a system of justification by works of law. But is law in any sense an essential ingredient of the gospel?

Galatians 6:2 - We must fulfill the law of Christ. Christ has a law, and we are expected to fulfill it.

1 Corinthians 9:20,21 - Paul was "not without law to God, but under law to Christ." Some people say we are not under law at all. Paul denies this. He was not under the law Jews were subject to (law of Moses), but this did not mean he was without law. He was still under law to Christ.

Isaiah 2:2,3 - When God established His house (the church - 1 Tim. 3:15), God's law would go forth from Jerusalem. [Acts 2; Luke 24:47]

James 2:8 - Love your neighbor is the royal law. If obedience to law is not required under the New Testament, then love is not required, for love is a law! Love and law do not necessarily conflict. To say love eliminates law is to misunderstand both love and law. [Cf. Rom. 13:8; Gal. 5:14]

1 John 3:4 - Sin is transgression of law. If we are not subject to law, then there can be no such thing as sin. If we are not required to obey law, then it would not matter if we commit sin. Those who claim we are without law are in effect defending sin, for the essence of sin is lawlessness (NKJV).

Yet all people commit sin (1 John 1:8,10; Rom. 3:23). And sin is what we need God's grace to forgive (Eph. 1:7).

If obedience to law is not necessary, then sin is not a problem, and we would not need grace to forgive our sins. To eliminate law is to eliminate our need for grace!

To say obedience is not essential is to belittle our need for grace and for Jesus' death.
[Heb. 8:10; Rom. 3:27; James 1:25; 2:8,12]

Romans 8:7

 

[just-me]

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. Matthew 23:1-3

Right away, we see something drastically wrong here. When Jesus spoke of the Pharisees having sat themselves down "in the chair of Moses", He was simply saying that when they instruct you from the writings of Moses, listen to and obey those instructions.

Something else we notice here; the Pharisees expected others to obey the Law but always found reasons as to why they did not have to themselves. Everything was done to attract the approval and attention of others. The approval of God took a back seat.

In today's world they would be the ones to carefully watch the opinion polls and then try to do and say those things which would garner them the most respect.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Matthew 23:15

By prescribing their own doctrines, traditions and creeds, the Pharisees were actually hindering others from truly accepting God's rule in their lives. They had formulated their own standards of right and wrong. Much like today, where we are witnessing a casting off of God's moral instructions, ethical and doctrinal standards in favor of the standards of men. How seldom it is for us today that we appeal to the only sound standard of right and wrong; the complete word of God.

just no

none of the above applies to what we are saying regarding the grace of God

it would be beneficial, IMO, if you understood that you are basically saying you are better than those who do not agree with you

you will not answer Ben, which is questionable...why would you ignore him? he isn't rude or nasty

if there are pharisees or religious zealots in this forum, it would not be those of us who understand the teachings in the book of Romans

we have never said nor do we agree with the postion many of you works based faith folks seem to have...and that would be that it is ok to continue in sin and do whatever you want as long as you have mouthed some sort of acceptance with regards to God's gift of eternal life through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ

the word very plainly states that if a person puts themself under law, they are accursed because all those who try to keep the law, which is impossible to do, will break the law and that puts one immediately under a death sentence

seriously? better to let another pat you on the back then do so yourself

we are not to esteem ourselves so high and certainly not above others and look down our noses at them

can you not see you are basically doing what you ascribe to the pharisees? you are constantly saying you are better than anyone else!

I say the above hoping you might give it some thought...I don't want to argue or hurt anyone, but brother, you need to hear it and I pray you listen or start to listen

I cannot quite understand your point. Are you defending the actions of the Pharisees that Jesus rebuked? Within our thoughts we need to also include the condition of this world with what I posted and you quoted.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Matthew 23:23

So the original question in the OP which hasn't been answered by anyone but me, "Where can we find judgment, mercy, and faith in the Old Covenant law that God gave to Israel via Moses?" Of course the scriptures I quoted are not in context with each other, so I guess those scriptures don't apply even when I make no personal comment as to how I believe they relate. Evidently God's word is out of context with other parts of God's word.

My answer to the OP

This answers why this is important? And why Abraham was not given it. And Ben's questions?

I think not.. You are hiding behind things, and fooling no one but yourself.

 

[ember]

There is a subtle teaching involving comparing Christians to Pharisees

Pharisees were more concerned with the external while God is concerned with the heart

I would suggest that if one is so enamored of making a biblical religious sect the comparitive and fundamental litmus test with regards to whether one is actually saved or not, that they should move on to the things written concerning being filled with the Holy Spirit and walking in the Spirit

Keeping the law is not even an option. We keep faith with Christ as he alone has satisfied the requirements of the law

Again, declaring oneself a law keeper, does not please God as it either adds to what Christ has done or even worse, takes away and insinuates the deceived person into the place that allows for judgement

Interestingly, a person can do what appears right, but as God looks upon the heart, that person is motivated by outward appearance and not by the inner promptings of the Holy Spirit

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I cannot quite understand your point. Are you defending the actions of the Pharisees that Jesus rebuked?

now this is getting out of hand, How do you get that from what she said?

As has been said before. even if the pharisees did all three of those things, they would still be lost. They would not be saved, would not be righteous, would have rejected Christ,

About the only thing which would have been good about what they did is this thread would never have been opened.

 

[ember]

Alive with Christ

1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus UNTO good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

so you see, even the good works are through Christ and we cannot take any credit for them!

May God be praised for all things are through Him and for Him and of Him...none us can boast!!!

 

[just-me]

There is a subtle teaching involving comparing Christians to Pharisees

Pharisees were more concerned with the external while God is concerned with the heart

I would suggest that if one is so enamored of making a biblical religious sect the comparitive and fundamental litmus test with regards to whether one is actually saved or not, that they should move on to the things written concerning being filled with the Holy Spirit and walking in the Spirit

Keeping the law is not even an option. We keep faith with Christ as he alone has satisfied the requirements of the law

Again, declaring oneself a law keeper, does not please God as it either adds to what Christ has done or even worse, takes away and insinuates the deceived person into the place that allows for judgement

Interestingly, a person can do what appears right, but as God looks upon the heart, that person is motivated by outward appearance and not by the inner promptings of the Holy Spirit

Is there a problem with observing the spiritual aspects thereof? Judgment, mercy, and faith are all spiritual foundations. Or is it that we only see these things as physical just because they are related to the law according to Jesus.

Am I right in concluding that you are separating the gift of faith from the law? Was that statement that Jesus made in Matthew 23:23 only effective up until His death?

Let's try to stay on topic with the OP concerning these 3 things, judgment, mercy, and faith that can be spiritually identified in the law. That was the question. Where are they identified in God's law?

 

[KennethC]

I guess people missed the part where I said there are commandments but our obedience to them is rooted in love and not fear. We have these commandments but we do not keep all of them. Who here can say they do? Are you perfect? Therefore one ought to do all these things, but one cannot because we are by no means perfect. Our obedience then doesn't derive itself from ourselves, in a matter of striving, but by the transforming power of God.

Is this heresy, or common sense? Look in the mirror to find out.

Do we as believers in Christ struggle on our path to be molded to perfection?.........................YES

Do we continue to always be this way or do we listen to the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the teachings of Christ to help us and strengthen us where we are weak to abide in His ways?

Remember also that the Apostle James said about a man who looks at himself in the mirror and realizes and acknowledges the sinful person they are, but then when they walk away return to the way they were that person is deceived.

As he says a person who only hears the Word but does not do it is deceived, and our Lord Jesus said the same thing that a person who only hears what He said but does not do it. Their faith is not built on Him !!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is there a problem with observing the spiritual aspects thereof? Judgment, mercy, and faith are all spiritual foundations. Or is it that we only see these things as physical just because they are related to the law according to Jesus.

Am I right in concluding that you are separating the gift of faith from the law? Was that statement that Jesus made in Matthew 23:23 only effective up until Hid death?

these were things which were in action BEFORE the law was even given, the law did not need to be written to show us these things, Abrahan and noah understood them quite well without the law thank you.

If you need rules to help you be good. You must not have God in you to empower you to be good. Your foundation is week, and will crumble.

 

[ember]

Is there a problem with observing the spiritual aspects thereof? Judgment, mercy, and faith are all spiritual foundations. Or is it that we only see these things as physical just because they are related to the law according to Jesus.

Am I right in concluding that you are separating the gift of faith from the law? Was that statement that Jesus made in Matthew 23:23 only effective up until Hid death?

I am wondering, do you believe that you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do we as believers in Christ struggle on our path to be molded to perfection?.........................YES

Do we continue to always be this way or do we listen to the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the teachings of Christ to help us and strengthen us where we are weak to abide in His ways?

Remember also that the Apostle James said about a man who looks at himself in the mirror and realizes and acknowledges the sinful person they are, but then when they walk away return to the way they were that person is deceived.

As he says a person who only hears the Word but does not do it is deceived, and our Lord Jesus said the same thing that a person who only hears what He said but does not do it. Their faith is not built on Him !!!

Yep. And these people were NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH.

Thats why they never grew..

Why do you reject the power of God to sanctify those who he has already perfected?

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am wondering, do you believe that you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

I know he says alot of stuff which sounds good. And claims he does not obey law to be saved,, yet he does believe salvation is not guaranteed by the cross or faith, but can be lost. thus he rejects the eternal life promised by God, given to all who place their trust in him.

 

[gb9]

I know he says alot of stuff which sounds good. And claims he does not obey law to be saved,, yet he does believe salvation is not guaranteed by the cross or faith, but can be lost. thus he rejects the eternal life promised by God, given to all who place their trust in him.

and that is the trick with stuff like this: it sounds good, holy ,righteous, proper, but at it's base is works-based salvation, and as you said, a shaky foundation that will crumble.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

1 John 3:4 - Sin is transgression of law. If we are not subject to law, then there can be no such thing as sin. If we are not required to obey law, then it would not matter if we commit sin. Those who claim we are without law are in effect defending sin, for the essence of sin is lawlessness (NKJV).

Paul said he wasn't without law because he was under [authority to] Christ. You even posted that verse, yet couldn't see what it says.

To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law, so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 1 Corinthians 9:20-21​

Paul went through the motions of being under the law of Moses in order to win the trust of those who were under that law. Yet he did not engage in that pretense around those who did not follow the law of Moses for the same purpose. In either case he was not without law because he was under Christ's law.

Paul equates GOD's law with Christ's law. You are Moses' disciple because you follow Moses. We are Christ disciples because we follow Christ. And what is his law?

And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 1 John 3:23​