Three major things the legalistic Pharisees didn't recognize.

[BenFTW]

And Ben wonders why I have him on ignore? I'm not happy about that, but the Bible says "foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes." That's obvious, and I'd rather follow the Word of God rather than succumb to human instinct that the adversary preys on. It isn't easy.

My patience is being tried. None of my questions are foolish and unlearned, they are pertinent to the discussion. You're acting like a donkey. Stop that, it isn't Christ like. For someone who says they uphold the spiritual of the Law you surely are failing at love.

 

[BenFTW]

Wanna bet that no one is saying the law of Moses has to be obeyed?

The spiritual meaning of the sabbath law is resting in Christ's finished work. That can be done while breaking the letter. Therefore, the letter is meaningless in terms of salvation. Edification? Yes. Salvation? No.

Very well said.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How many times have I seen you or another say the fruit of the Holy Spirit does not have to be evident in a believers life ???

You have NEVER heard Ben, Myself or others like us say this.

YOUR A LIAR

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And Ben wonders why I have him on ignore? I'm not happy about that, but the Bible says "foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes." That's obvious, and I'd rather follow the Word of God rather than succumb to human instinct that the adversary preys on. It isn't easy.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12

well I guess this whole OP should just disapear then, Because it is based on FOOLISH and UNLEARNED questions.

 

[ember]

And Ben wonders why I have him on ignore? I'm not happy about that, but the Bible says "foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes." That's obvious, and I'd rather follow the Word of God rather than succumb to human instinct that the adversary preys on. It isn't easy.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12

I am alarmed at the sudden resort to claiming that people who disagree with your exortations have become, somehow, of the devil, demonized or whatever expression you are trying to convey here

Ken did the same thing with his rebuking satan post

you guys are really off on a tangent here and I realize you now think you may be protecting yourself from demonic attacks but I can assure you, having dealt with the demonic, that no such is occurring

your flesh is yelling is all and it is getting just plain weird

 

[KennethC]

You put the cart before the horse, that is the problem. I addressed this in length in my thread on Legalism's Mistake: Confusing Cause and Effect (Sanctification). I have never stated the fruit doesn't follow conversion but am saying the necessity for them is not what saves. They do follow believers, but they are not the means to salvation. If someone is a born-again saved child of God, they will have fruit. However, that fruit isn't what saves them Jesus does. How can you disagree with such a foundational teaching of the Gospel? If you do agree, then why the semantics?

There are babes in Christ who are carnal such as the Corinthians and yet such people are saved if they were to die in their carnality. Why? Because they may be babes, yet they are in Christ! He is our Savior. Our fruit or good works don't maintain our salvation or save us. You agree with this! So the necessity for fruit doesn't mean the works save us, but it does reveal a true believer. However, stop judging! Examine yourself, not others. See if you are in the faith.

Nobody is saying those fruit of the Spirit save, and this again is where you show exactly what I was saying.

You are stating things we never said, as the fruit of the Spirit are proof of a true saving faith in the Lord. That is a lot different then saying they save as it says no such thing.

I do not put the cart before the horse and I do not disagree with the Gospel as you claim, but what you don't want to admit is those who do not show these fruit are not saved. For it is the abiding of the Holy Spirit in us that proves we are born again, and thus the fruits will be evident. If not then that shows no Holy Spirit = not born again !!!

Where do you get that a person who dies carnally minded are saved ???

Apostle Paul clearly says that way leads to death (and he is not speaking of physical death here), carnally minded is enmity to God and Paul clearly shows this in Romans 8.

I am not judging nobody so again you make another false claim, and we when mature in the faith are given every right to call out others who are walking improperly by the faith. Paul, Peter, James, and John did this as well showing how to walk properly and how not to walk.

Paul warned believers of how they were walking and that their ending would not be eternal life if they did not repent and return to the Lord !!!

 

[just-me]

Back to the OP again as I have tried to do several times. Do these scriptures relate to each other?

Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; Deuteronomy 7:9

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law,judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.Matthew 23:23

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. John 8:28

Did God tell Jesus to reveal these things concerning judgment, mercy, and faith that are supposed found by us in His Father's law?

 

[BenFTW]

You have NEVER heard Ben, Myself or others like us say this.

YOUR A LIAR

I have pointed to the thief on the cross to show there is a caveat to works. If someone can get away with not having works because they died, then it is better for all of us to die quickly after accepting Jesus Christ than to live life and risk our eternal security. We might as well join the army as quick as we can and go to war so that we may die so that we don't screw up. That is how silly it is.

I am not saying a person will not have works, but what I was showing was that the works are not a necessity to salvation, but a fruit there of. We are saved unto good works. Based upon a technicality, even though its impossible, if a believer didn't have works such a person in Christ would still be saved because works is not the determining factor for salvation. Belief in Jesus Christ is. However, such would be a rarity/anomoly for we are born again and have the fruit of the Holy Spirit. One would have to somehow come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ (a dream possibly) and live on a deserted island.

 

[ember]

How many times have I seen you or another say the fruit of the Holy Spirit does not have to be evident in a believers life ???

Then you take and use an example of a death bed confession such as the thief on the cross, and use it in such a way to try to say a believer who lives long enough to produce fruit still does not have to.

Lord Jesus said everybody who does not continue to abide in Him and produce fruit will be cut off and burned, and Apostle Paul states similar to this in Romans 11:22.

You say enough is enough yet you still agree with and side with those who are so loosely throwing around the legalistic term, and even continue to try to say we are teaching works to earn salvation. You say enough is enough which is true, but your side needs to stop their unedifying tactic's as well.

I'm loosing respect for your posts here Ken...

No one has ever said that a Christian does not evidence the working of the Holy Spirit in their life

The problem is, that YOU and just-me envision YOURSELVES as the horticulturists

What is going on here that you would write such a thing that anyone, with two eyes, one eye or even blind with common sense, would write something that is an actual lie?

sorry, but I really loose respect when people resort to twisting and worse...outright lies in order to make it seem it is the other person that is wrong

I am actually saddened by this and I would be if either side lied

I think it is beneath you and you should apologize. I have not been rude to you so perhaps you might consider what you are saying

 

[KennethC]

Wanna bet that no one is saying the law of Moses has to be obeyed?

The spiritual meaning of the sabbath law is resting in Christ's finished work. That can be done while breaking the letter. Therefore, the letter is meaningless in terms of salvation. Edification? Yes. Salvation? No.

Show me one post where somebody said the physical ordinances of the Mosaic laws has to be obeyed, just one ???

The finished work of Christ was His death on the cross to give us remission for sins so that we can be reconciled to God through Him. We do that by establishing our faith in Him by hearing the word (Romans 10:17), repenting (Luke 13:3), and getting baptized in Christ (Matthew 28:18-20).

Which is exactly what is mentioned in Acts 2:38, 3:19, and 19:2-6............

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have pointed to the thief on the cross to show there is a caveat to works. If someone can get away with not having works because they died, then it is better for all of us to die quickly after accepting Jesus Christ than to live life and risk our eternal security. We might as well join the army as quick as we can and go to war so that we may die so that we don't screw up. That is how silly it is.

I am not saying a person will not have works, but what I was showing was that the works are not a necessity to salvation, but a fruit there of. We are saved unto good works. Based upon a technicality, even though its impossible, if a believer didn't have works such a person in Christ would still be saved because works is not the determining factor for salvation. Belief in Jesus Christ is. However, such would be a rarity/anomoly for we are born again and have the fruit of the Holy Spirit. One would have to somehow come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ (a dream possibly) and live on a deserted island.

It is his religion. He has been taught by his church (as most churches which support his form of legalism do) is that faith only people

1. Excuse sin
2. Believe one can be saved and never do any work
3. Believe a person can be saved and continue to live in sin
4. Believes a person can be saved and live however they want (why bother changing, we are saved forever)

Since they believe the lie of their church, you can argue until your blue in the face and deny it, The words of their church hold more sway than the words of God and us. (we do not really know what we believe you know)

it is the roman curse..

 

[KennethC]

I'm loosing respect for your posts here Ken...

No one has ever said that a Christian does not evidence the working of the Holy Spirit in their life

The problem is, that YOU and just-me envision YOURSELVES as the horticulturists

What is going on here that you would write such a thing that anyone, with two eyes, one eye or even blind with common sense, would write something that is an actual lie?

sorry, but I really loose respect when people resort to twisting and worse...outright lies in order to make it seem it is the other person that is wrong

I am actually saddened by this and I would be if either side lied

I think it is beneath you and you should apologize. I have not been rude to you so perhaps you might consider what you are saying

Well I am sorry you feel that and I have not been rude to you either, and I have seen Ben and a couple others say that in other threads and in the past that the fruit of the Spirit does not have to be seen in a believers life.

I have been treated with disrespect constantly by a few on here and am very tired of having my words twisted to say something I didn't. One of them that liked your post here I even have on ignore for this disrespect.

I am sorry if you have not seen this but that is by no means any reason to feel this way about me for calling these people out for what they have said or done in the past that they are trying to deny now !!!

God bless and I hope you will see this and understand where I am coming from.......

 

[BenFTW]

Nobody is saying those fruit of the Spirit save, and this again is where you show exactly what I was saying.

You are stating things we never said, as the fruit of the Spirit are proof of a true saving faith in the Lord. That is a lot different then saying they save as it says no such thing.

I do not put the cart before the horse and I do not disagree with the Gospel as you claim, but what you don't want to admit is those who do not show these fruit are not saved. For it is the abiding of the Holy Spirit in us that proves we are born again, and thus the fruits will be evident. If not then that shows no Holy Spirit = not born again !!!

Where do you get that a person who dies carnally minded are saved ???

Apostle Paul clearly says that way leads to death (and he is not speaking of physical death here), carnally minded is enmity to God and Paul clearly shows this in Romans 8.

I am not judging nobody so again you make another false claim, and we when mature in the faith are given every right to call out others who are walking improperly by the faith. Paul, Peter, James, and John did this as well showing how to walk properly and how not to walk.

Paul warned believers of how they were walking and that their ending would not be eternal life if they did not repent and return to the Lord !!!

HOLY CRAP KENNETHC!!! How can you read all that I said and see false accusations? Nothing of what I said was accusatory except to say that you put the cart before the horse when you emphasize the fruit of conversion with the root of belief. I am not bearing false witness, get that crap out of here already and realize I am not attacking you. Dang man... read what I said. I didn't say you disagree with the Gospel, I asked how could you disagree? I even said, if you don't then why the semantics? Come on!

I was referring to judging, in terms of determining others to be believers. Worry about yourself, stop being a fruit inspector is the point. It is a suggestion to you, a criticism. Constructive too.

Stop taking everything personal and thinking I am accusing you of things! I never once accused you of the things I was addressing but was pointing them out for clarity's sake. I even agreed fruit will follow conversion. What is wrong with you? Stop being so defensive, I am not attacking, defaming, or accusing you of anything falsely. Stop saying I am because then you ARE defaming me.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I have pointed to the thief on the cross to show there is a caveat to works. If someone can get away with not having works because they died, then it is better for all of us to die quickly after accepting Jesus Christ than to live life and risk our eternal security. We might as well join the army as quick as we can and go to war so that we may die so that we don't screw up. That is how silly it is.

I am not saying a person will not have works, but what I was showing was that the works are not a necessity to salvation, but a fruit there of. We are saved unto good works. Based upon a technicality, even though its impossible, if a believer didn't have works such a person in Christ would still be saved because works is not the determining factor for salvation. Belief in Jesus Christ is. However, such would be a rarity/anomoly for we are born again and have the fruit of the Holy Spirit. One would have to somehow come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ (a dream possibly) and live on a deserted island.

There is no caveat to works. Works are required. It all depends, though, on what you consider works. The thief on the cross did a good work by confessing Jesus as the lord. So he was not without works. With such sacrifices, GOD is well pleased.

Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that openly profess his name. And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased. Hebrews 13:15-16​

Notice in the above, the law of GOD: faith & love.

 

[BenFTW]

There is no caveat to works. Works are required. It all depends, though, on what you consider works. The thief on the cross did a good work by confessing Jesus as the lord. So he was not without works. With such sacrifices, GOD is well pleased.

Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that openly profess his name. And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased. Hebrews 13:15-16​

Notice in the above, the law of GOD: faith & love.

More semantics, wonderful.

 

[KennethC]

HOLY CRAP KENNETHC!!! How can you read all that I said and see false accusations? Nothing of what I said was accusatory except to say that you put the cart before the horse when you emphasize the fruit of conversion with the root of belief. I am not bearing false witness, get that crap out of here already and realize I am not attacking you. Dang man... read what I said. I didn't say you disagree with the Gospel, I asked how could you disagree? I even said, if you don't then why the semantics? Come on!

I was referring to judging, in terms of determining others to be believers. Worry about yourself, stop being a fruit inspector is the point. It is a suggestion to you, a criticism. Constructive too.

Stop taking everything personal and thinking I am accusing you of things! I never once accused you of the things I was addressing but was pointing them out for clarity's sake. I even agreed fruit will follow conversion. What is wrong with you? Stop being so defensive, I am not attacking, defaming, or accusing you of anything falsely. Stop saying I am because then you ARE defaming me.

You said I put the cart before the horse (that is a false accusation), you said I am judging others (that is a false accusation), and we from this side have never said they maintain or get salvation either so there was no need to even bring that up.

I will be offensive when somebody tries to speak as if I am not defending the Word of God, and comes back with statements that are not true on me.

As for telling people how they are walking improperly in the faith, well you may not like it but we are allowed to do it and show in scripture how we are suppose to be walking.

Even Jesus and Paul said and showed that we will know true believers from the false believers/false teachers by their fruit. You seem to act like we can't which would be in direct contradiction to the word of God !!!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

More semantics, wonderful.

It's really not semantics. It's being clear about what works actually are. Because the conflict is not between works and no works, but between works of law and works of faith.

 

[BenFTW]

You said I put the cart before the horse (that is a false accusation), you said I am judging others (that is a false accusation), and we from this side have never said they maintain or get salvation either so there was no need to even bring that up.

I will be offensive when somebody tries to speak as if I am not defending the Word of God, and comes back with statements that are not true on me.

As for telling people how they are walking improperly in the faith, well you may not like it but we are allowed to do it and show in scripture how we are suppose to be walking.

Even Jesus and Paul said and showed that we will know true believers from the false believers/false teachers by their fruit. You seem to act like we can't which would be in direct contradiction to the word of God !!!

Kenneth... please... please stop causing strife. Your defensiveness is causing strife. Did I not just state what I put in bold to you, was accusatory yet correct in my estimation? You are judging, you always emphasize fruit to such a degree that it is no longer faith, but something more. We agree there is something more, but that more does not save. PERIOD. I brought up maintenance, again, for clarity's sake... to show that salvation is of faith and not works. If you agree, come in agreement, like the post for all I care. There is no need to say it doesn't need to be brought up because it does. There are legalistic doctrines out there and so it needs emphasis.

Sigh.

 

[BenFTW]

It's really not semantics. It's being clear about what works actually are. Because the conflict is not between works and no works, but between works of law and works of faith.

Which no one denies happens for believers. So, awesome. The problem is in emphasizing the works to the degree it becomes one with the root of faith.

 

[JaumeJ]

Insolence, arrobance, disrespect of fellows in Christ, criticizing others without discussing first, leveling charges with no foundation..........and much more.

(I expect at least three to say this describes me because I post.)

Bless all in Jesus Christ, amen. Good night from over here....at least in a bit...