Three major things the legalistic Pharisees didn't recognize.

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K

KennethC

Guest
Yes, this divide has been around a long time. I don't think it comes out of man made traditions. I know I was in Arminian churches the first 15 years of my walk. (Although I did not know that is what they were called!) I was taught that if I don't produce fruit, or if I sinned, I could lose my salvation. Or that not producing fruit was a sign I was not saved, if you want to put it that way. I felt so pressured, so far from God, because I knew my works were not enough.

In my Bible reading and study, I began to find things that disagreed with that position. I began to pray, and God showed me the truths he had given me right when I was saved - that I was his, and he would not let me go. It was man's traditions that made me stop believing the Holy Spirit.

I began to realize, to my joy, that God was never going to leave of forsake me. I didn't know about anyone else, but I knew my relationship with God was secure, and that gave me great joy and peace. It inspired me to do more for Christ, for other people. It allowed the Holy Spirit to change me, in ways I had failed to do on my own. I had been working on the fruits of the Holy Spirit since I was saved in 1980. Some were beyond my ability to achieve.

But God changed that, when I realized I didn't have to perform to maintain my salvation, but rather that the Holy Spirit is the one who does the transforming. Just like Romans 12:2 and 2 Cor. 3:18 say - transform - in the Greek - passive imperative tense. We are commanded to let God change us. God does the changing, in his time, and for his glory.

Later, in theology in Seminary, I was introduced to the different soteriological positions. At that point, I didn't even realize there were different sides to this debate. We read about Arminianism from Arminian theologians, who tried to convince us that we would lose our salvation if we were not showing fruits/works. I read from Calvinist theologians the other extreme, which I rejected too. Then I found some theologians, with the encouraging Biblical word that we cannot lose our salvation. It is God who justifies, sanctifies and glorifies.

So, Kenneth, you are wrong in your opinion that man made traditions are the problem and you alone have a pipe line to the Holy Spirit, who has correctly instructed only you, as to the perfect soteriology. In fact, Arminianism is just as much a man made tradition as Calvinism or any other ism.

It is only in trusting in Christ's finished work on the cross that we are saved. And God saves us through the faith he gives us. It is a gift, lest anyone should boast!

I highlighted and underlined 2 parts of what you said because it seems like you were lead away from the truth.

Because the first one Jesus Himself said the one's who do not produce fruit will be cut off and burned, and this has nothing to do with what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 3 on works being tested by fire.

Those are two separate situations as one is showing the difference between believers and unbelievers, and the other is speaking on faithfulness in believers.

The other one I underlined because I never said I alone have a pipe line to the Holy Spirit, as in He only speaks to me.

There are a number of believers in the faith who agree in the same way I do, as well as many biblical scholars from past and present. As well have I found in studies a few quotes from 2nd and 3rd century Apostles, scholars, and others that show the same thing I have taught by the Holy Spirit who has guided me to them.

Works of the law and works in the faith are two separate things, as works of the law are our own doing but works of the faith are His works of righteousness imputed in and through us to do.

Broaden your horizon instead of just listening to who they brought in front of you to listen to in that Seminary school, because it does not matter if they bring 5, 10, or even 20 people claiming to be biblical scholars to teach. If they all have been brought up in the same bad ways in teaching then they will continue to keep teaching those bad teachings to others.

Making the simplicity that's in Christ into a difficult understanding that only college level educated people can understand should send red flags up for any believer. Because there are places to where people don't have access to such things for learning, yet they still receive understanding of the truth by the Holy Spirit !!!
 
Sep 4, 2012
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The Law only condemns because the flesh is to weak to obey all that is written in the ordinances. QUOTE]

This is the perniciousness of your doctrine. You teach that in the flesh we don't have the strength to keep the law, but in the spirit we do have the strength to observe the law and do its righteousness (correct me if I'm wrong).

That's simply not the doctrine of Christ. Through GOD's grace we find the power to have faith and love one another, which fulfills the righteousness required by the law.

That's the doctrine of Christ.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
The Law only condemns because the flesh is to weak to obey all that is written in the ordinances. QUOTE]

This is the perniciousness of your doctrine. You teach that in the flesh we don't have the strength to keep the law, but in the spirit we do have the strength to observe the law and do its righteousness (correct me if I'm wrong).

That's simply not the doctrine of Christ. Through GOD's grace we find the power to have faith and love one another, which fulfills the righteousness required by the law.

That's the doctrine of Christ.
How many times does Jesus and Paul have to say all things are possible for those who believe before it is taken as truth ??? (Matthew 19:26, Mark 9:23, Philippians 4:13)

Also love one another is not the only thing that Jesus taught and commanded, so why limit it to just that one command ???
 
K

KennethC

Guest
Again questioning my beliefs is not the topic of this thread so please..................

 
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So, who would care to contribute, and finally we can begin the process of edification without sidestepping hindrances. Again, I post my input. Please expand, keeping in mind that God's word is never in conflicting with itself. Never! If it seems to be contradictory, or irrelevant to us, it's our misunderstanding, not God's diversion from the beginning until the end, for all of God's word is relevant to believers and non-believers alike. No one can escape this fact, "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." Romans 14:11

Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour. Leviticus 19:15

And Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord, and all the
judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the Lord hath said will we do. Exodus 24:3
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. John 7:24

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law,
judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Matthew 23:23
...........................................
Thou in thy
mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation. Exodus 15:13

And shewing
mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 12:6

And thou shalt put the
mercy seat upon the ark of the testimony in the most holy place. Exodus 26:34

Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and
mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; Deuteronomy 7:9

For the Lord is good; his
mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations. Psalm 100:5

Blessed are the
merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Matthew 5:7

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law,judgment,
mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.Matthew 23:23
.................................................. ...........
Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God,
the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; Deuteronomy 7:9

And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no
faith. Deuteronomy 32:20

And I will raise me up a
faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever. 1 Samuel 2:35

Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the
justshall live by hisfaith. Habakkuk 2:4

And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no
faith? Mark 4:40

And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have
faith in God. Mark 11:22

And when he saw their
faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee. Luke 5:20

Therefore we conclude that a man is
justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:28

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.Matthew 23:23

Malachi 3:6

Hebrews 13:8
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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I don't think this thread would benefit from getting it back on the tracks after all this derailment. To be honest, Just-me still has left questions unanswered and refuses to address them, so quoting scripture revealing the things Jesus pointed out to the Pharisees will go no where. I still would like to ask, what does it matter if we point out these things in the Law? Yes, the law is holy, just and good but it can't make us so.

What is the significance of finding faith in the law? Finding justice? Finding mercy? I am sure it would behoove us to learn these principles, as they are good to live by. I, however, know that self-righteousness doesn't save us, because the only righteousness that meets the demands of the Law is the imputed righteousness we have received from Jesus Christ. Its cool to see examples of these and how they can be applicable to one's own life. This, however, is not the purpose behind this thread it seems. For if it was, Just-me would've answered such forthrightly.
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
4,057
262
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I don't think this thread would benefit from getting it back on the tracks after all this derailment. To be honest, Just-me still has left questions unanswered and refuses to address them, so quoting scripture revealing the things Jesus pointed out to the Pharisees will go no where. I still would like to ask, what does it matter if we point out these things in the Law? Yes, the law is holy, just and good but it can't make us so.

What is the significance of finding faith in the law? Finding justice? Finding mercy? I am sure it would behoove us to learn these principles, as they are good to live by. I, however, know that self-righteousness doesn't save us, because the only righteousness that meets the demands of the Law is the imputed righteousness we have received from Jesus Christ. Its cool to see examples of these and how they can be applicable to one's own life. This, however, is not the purpose behind this thread it seems. For if it was, Just-me would've answered such forthrightly.
One of the keys to this discussion about the Law to realize what the Law was intended to do, and what it wasn't. You're right, the law is holy just and good, but it can't make us holy. But that isn't the point of the Law. It is meant to show us that it is God that makes us holy. So if people want to follow the Law to earn some sort of special favor before God, or to be made holy, they're in error. God didn't intend it to do that. What He did intend it to do was to teach Israel how to be God's people on a daily basis and how to be set apart from the other nations. Just because people get the purpose of the Law wrong doesn't mean the Law doesn't have application to our daily life.

Following the Law on a daily basis doesn't make me holy, but it does give me practical ways to honor God, just as the NT does. Obeying all of the instructions in the NT doesn't make me holy. It only points out how much Jesus' sacrifice makes me holy.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
How about we go all the way back to the beginning with Adam and Eve, and we can see justice, mercy, and faith even back then.

Faith - Adam and Eve believed and Adam even walked with God

Justice - For their sin of eating the fruit of the tree they were made to live mortal lives in pain of plowing the ground and child birth, and thus having natural death enter the world.

Mercy - God could have destroyed them and started all over again, but instead He let them live and is still allowing for His plan to play out.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
The Law only condemns because the flesh is to weak to obey all that is written in the ordinances.
Romans 8:3 shows this which is why the written ordinances are the ministry of death, because of the punishments of death for breaking them they carried.

Yet all Jews were guilty of not keeping the law as written so how many do we actually read were put to death for breaking those ordinances, and how many times can we read of people being shown mercy and forgiven instead in the OT ???

Learning the Spiritual or moral aspect within the law that was overlooked by the Pharisees would not bring condemnation, but instead would bring greater understanding to what the Lord and Paul were saying about the law.

Because at times you will see Paul speaking against the Law but then at other times you will see him uphold and speaking on the 10 Commandments. To the unlearned this would seem contradictory because here he is speaking against but here he is supporting and upholding it.

The contradiction comes from not seeing how the physical written ordinances is what does not apply, but the moral law of God contained within the 10 Commandments are upheld by believers by following the two greatest commands to love.

Those who are in Christ walk by the Spirit (where there is no condemnation), but those who continue to walk by the flesh are carnally minded and Paul says they have not learned Christ.
What a wonderful testimony sis.

It seems like the church today is either roman, arminian or calvin. 3 ideas fighting against each others. all who think they are right..

instead of open minded people studying the word of God to see what the word of God says, We have done exactly what paul warned against, and become followers of men, and not followers of God.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
How about we go all the way back to the beginning with Adam and Eve, and we can see justice, mercy, and faith even back then.

Faith - Adam and Eve believed and Adam even walked with God

Justice - For their sin of eating the fruit of the tree they were made to live mortal lives in pain of plowing the ground and child birth, and thus having natural death enter the world.

Mercy - God could have destroyed them and started all over again, but instead He let them live and is still allowing for His plan to play out.

Keep on showing this.

For you have answered my question to Just-me, and many others question by these posts.

Your proving the basis and premis of this thread is null and void. And the truth of the matter (which myself, Ben and other has been trying to show Just-Me) is that these 3 basic truths have been around since the beginning, and were not just elements of the law. One does not have to go to the law to find these things, Because for years people understood them and no law was given,
 
Mar 4, 2013
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How about we go all the way back to the beginning with Adam and Eve, and we can see justice, mercy, and faith even back then.

Faith - Adam and Eve believed and Adam even walked with God

Justice - For their sin of eating the fruit of the tree they were made to live mortal lives in pain of plowing the ground and child birth, and thus having natural death enter the world.

Mercy - God could have destroyed them and started all over again, but instead He let them live and is still allowing for His plan to play out.
I see God's mercy in that He expelled them from the garden, and in so doing separated them from the tree of life so they wouldn't live in sin, separated from God, forever. I see mercy in God's actions even though many times we only see one side as harsh judgment instead of both mercy and judgment working in righteousness together. A good example of judgment and mercy by faith in God's word, which is truly loving God's way, is in Leviticus 19:17-18

Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.

Coats of skin were made by God in order for communication to continue with Him. "Atonement." That word is all over in the law. It's truly merciful that God would not want us separated from Him and His blessings.
 
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BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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I highlighted and underlined 2 parts of what you said because it seems like you were lead away from the truth.

Because the first one Jesus Himself said the one's who do not produce fruit will be cut off and burned, and this has nothing to do with what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 3 on works being tested by fire.

Those are two separate situations as one is showing the difference between believers and unbelievers, and the other is speaking on faithfulness in believers.

The other one I underlined because I never said I alone have a pipe line to the Holy Spirit, as in He only speaks to me.

There are a number of believers in the faith who agree in the same way I do, as well as many biblical scholars from past and present. As well have I found in studies a few quotes from 2nd and 3rd century Apostles, scholars, and others that show the same thing I have taught by the Holy Spirit who has guided me to them.

Works of the law and works in the faith are two separate things, as works of the law are our own doing but works of the faith are His works of righteousness imputed in and through us to do.

Broaden your horizon instead of just listening to who they brought in front of you to listen to in that Seminary school, because it does not matter if they bring 5, 10, or even 20 people claiming to be biblical scholars to teach. If they all have been brought up in the same bad ways in teaching then they will continue to keep teaching those bad teachings to others.

Making the simplicity that's in Christ into a difficult understanding that only college level educated people can understand should send red flags up for any believer. Because there are places to where people don't have access to such things for learning, yet they still receive understanding of the truth by the Holy Spirit !!!
I would like to see Angela address this. I'm sure it would make for a great and edifying read.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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I highlighted and underlined 2 parts of what you said because it seems like you were lead away from the truth.

Because the first one Jesus Himself said the one's who do not produce fruit will be cut off and burned, and this has nothing to do with what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 3 on works being tested by fire.

Those are two separate situations as one is showing the difference between believers and unbelievers, and the other is speaking on faithfulness in believers.

The other one I underlined because I never said I alone have a pipe line to the Holy Spirit, as in He only speaks to me.

There are a number of believers in the faith who agree in the same way I do, as well as many biblical scholars from past and present. As well have I found in studies a few quotes from 2nd and 3rd century Apostles, scholars, and others that show the same thing I have taught by the Holy Spirit who has guided me to them.

Works of the law and works in the faith are two separate things, as works of the law are our own doing but works of the faith are His works of righteousness imputed in and through us to do.

Broaden your horizon instead of just listening to who they brought in front of you to listen to in that Seminary school, because it does not matter if they bring 5, 10, or even 20 people claiming to be biblical scholars to teach. If they all have been brought up in the same bad ways in teaching then they will continue to keep teaching those bad teachings to others.

Making the simplicity that's in Christ into a difficult understanding that only college level educated people can understand should send red flags up for any believer. Because there are places to where people don't have access to such things for learning, yet they still receive understanding of the truth by the Holy Spirit !!!

Once again, since you missed it the first time through.

The man made traditions I was taught were that I could lose my salvation. It was a fruitless and fearful time in my Christian walk.

GOD himself opened the Bible up to me, and confirmed to me, what he told me from the day he saved me - that he would never leave or forsake me. (Hebrews 13:5)

I didn't know anything about soteriology when I went to Seminary, except that what I was taught in the Arminian churches was wrong. All Seminary did was give me the vocabulary, to talk about it, and articulate what God had taught me.

And yes, I have read many more scholars than 10 or 20. I have also endured the incredibly bad exegesis in this forum.

I truly believe that besides stubborn pig headedness, which no one is going to change by referring to the Bible, that the biggest issue in soteriology is context.

People who rip Scriptures out of the passage, chapter, book, history, and use it to shore up their point of view. That is called eisegesis, or "reading into" from the Greek "eis." And yes I did learn that in Seminary. Maybe you could learn about it too?

But of course, you think that anyone with a Biblical education cannot understand the Bible as well as you. Or is this continual besmirching of my training, and others, simply a defensive reaction you have, because you know you cannot possibly understand what the Bible is saying, without Greek and Hebrew, and you cannot or will not learn those languages, or actually study theology, from all viewpoints, and you have to be defensive to cover your ignorance?

Not accusing, just trying to figure out why you find it necessary to bring up my education, when I gave you my testimony about how God showed me I cannot lose my salvation. (And seminary was the confirmation, not the source of what I believe!) The Holy Spirit and the Bible are why I believe that a believer called, saved and justified by God cannot lose their salvation.

As for those without Seminary training (college is lower or undergrad training, just so you know for the future!), OF COURSE. God teaches everyone his truths through his Word.

God taught me before I was in Seminary, that I cannot lose my salvation. That was the turning point in my Christian walk. That is when God was finally able to really start transforming me, because I was not constantly worrying about myself, but instead, following Christ. All seminary did was give me the words to use when discussing this. So please, no more with this red herring of yours.

PS. I know several people who still believe they can lose their salvation, including my husband. He has never grown, always living in abject fear that God is going to cast him out. I do not try and teach him, but after sitting under 3 pastors who have shown him the Scriptures in their sermons and their lives, he still is trapped in the lie of Arminianism. I pray for him daily, to have the peace and the security of knowing that God saves us, and he will not let us go!

I also pray for those who might read the posts here, that they would discern the truth of God's love and sovereignty, and know that Jesus saves for all eternity, from the moment he calls a person his own. It is not by our works, our fruits, or anything we do that we are saved. God saves! From start to finish!
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
981
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Once again, since you missed it the first time through.

The man made traditions I was taught were that I could lose my salvation. It was a fruitless and fearful time in my Christian walk.

GOD himself opened the Bible up to me, and confirmed to me, what he told me from the day he saved me - that he would never leave or forsake me. (Hebrews 13:5)

I didn't know anything about soteriology when I went to Seminary, except that what I was taught in the Arminian churches was wrong. All Seminary did was give me the vocabulary, to talk about it, and articulate what God had taught me.

And yes, I have read many more scholars than 10 or 20. I have also endured the incredibly bad exegesis in this forum.

I truly believe that besides stubborn pig headedness, which no one is going to change by referring to the Bible, that the biggest issue in soteriology is context.

People who rip Scriptures out of the passage, chapter, book, history, and use it to shore up their point of view. That is called eisegesis, or "reading into" from the Greek "eis." And yes I did learn that in Seminary. Maybe you could learn about it too?

But of course, you think that anyone with a Biblical education cannot understand the Bible as well as you. Or is this continual besmirching of my training, and others, simply a defensive reaction you have, because you know you cannot possibly understand what the Bible is saying, without Greek and Hebrew, and you cannot or will not learn those languages, or actually study theology, from all viewpoints, and you have to be defensive to cover your ignorance?

Not accusing, just trying to figure out why you find it necessary to bring up my education, when I gave you my testimony about how God showed me I cannot lose my salvation. (And seminary was the confirmation, not the source of what I believe!) The Holy Spirit and the Bible are why I believe that a believer called, saved and justified by God cannot lose their salvation.

As for those without Seminary training (college is lower or undergrad training, just so you know for the future!), OF COURSE. God teaches everyone his truths through his Word.

God taught me before I was in Seminary, that I cannot lose my salvation. That was the turning point in my Christian walk. That is when God was finally able to really start transforming me, because I was not constantly worrying about myself, but instead, following Christ. All seminary did was give me the words to use when discussing this. So please, no more with this red herring of yours.

PS. I know several people who still believe they can lose their salvation, including my husband. He has never grown, always living in abject fear that God is going to cast him out. I do not try and teach him, but after sitting under 3 pastors who have shown him the Scriptures in their sermons and their lives, he still is trapped in the lie of Arminianism. I pray for him daily, to have the peace and the security of knowing that God saves us, and he will not let us go!

I also pray for those who might read the posts here, that they would discern the truth of God's love and sovereignty, and know that Jesus saves for all eternity, from the moment he calls a person his own. It is not by our works, our fruits, or anything we do that we are saved. God saves! From start to finish!
This reminds me of Hebrews 7:25.

Hebrews 7:25King James Version (KJV)

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Jesus, our High Priest! :D
 
Sep 4, 2012
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How many times does Jesus and Paul have to say all things are possible for those who believe before it is taken as truth ??? (Matthew 19:26, Mark 9:23, Philippians 4:13)

Also love one another is not the only thing that Jesus taught and commanded, so why limit it to just that one command ???
Show me what Jesus said for us to do that cannot be summed up in faith and love.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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Show me what Jesus said for us to do that cannot be summed up in faith and love.
Cutting off our hand or plucking out our eye? lol Only kidding. :D Though I think He was being fully serious in that the Law called for perfection. If something is stopping you from being so, well... better get rid of it. lol
 
Mar 4, 2013
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Angela try PMing Kenneth like you did me. Let's try this again.
How about we go all the way back to the beginning with Adam and Eve, and we can see justice, mercy, and faith even back then.

Faith - Adam and Eve believed and Adam even walked with God

Justice - For their sin of eating the fruit of the tree they were made to live mortal lives in pain of plowing the ground and child birth, and thus having natural death enter the world.

Mercy - God could have destroyed them and started all over again, but instead He let them live and is still allowing for His plan to play out.
I see God's mercy in that He expelled them from the garden, and in so doing separated them from the tree of life so they wouldn't live in sin, separated from God, forever. I see mercy in God's actions even though many times we only see one side as harsh judgment instead of both mercy and judgment working in righteousness together. A good example of judgment and mercy by faith in God's word, which is truly loving God's way, is in Leviticus 19:17-18

Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.

Coats of skin were made by God in order for communication to continue with Him. "Atonement." That word is all over in the law. It's truly merciful that God would not want us separated from Him and His blessings.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
Once again, since you missed it the first time through.

The man made traditions I was taught were that I could lose my salvation. It was a fruitless and fearful time in my Christian walk.

GOD himself opened the Bible up to me, and confirmed to me, what he told me from the day he saved me - that he would never leave or forsake me. (Hebrews 13:5)

I didn't know anything about soteriology when I went to Seminary, except that what I was taught in the Arminian churches was wrong. All Seminary did was give me the vocabulary, to talk about it, and articulate what God had taught me.

And yes, I have read many more scholars than 10 or 20. I have also endured the incredibly bad exegesis in this forum.

I truly believe that besides stubborn pig headedness, which no one is going to change by referring to the Bible, that the biggest issue in soteriology is context.

People who rip Scriptures out of the passage, chapter, book, history, and use it to shore up their point of view. That is called eisegesis, or "reading into" from the Greek "eis." And yes I did learn that in Seminary. Maybe you could learn about it too?

But of course, you think that anyone with a Biblical education cannot understand the Bible as well as you. Or is this continual besmirching of my training, and others, simply a defensive reaction you have, because you know you cannot possibly understand what the Bible is saying, without Greek and Hebrew, and you cannot or will not learn those languages, or actually study theology, from all viewpoints, and you have to be defensive to cover your ignorance?

Not accusing, just trying to figure out why you find it necessary to bring up my education, when I gave you my testimony about how God showed me I cannot lose my salvation. (And seminary was the confirmation, not the source of what I believe!) The Holy Spirit and the Bible are why I believe that a believer called, saved and justified by God cannot lose their salvation.

As for those without Seminary training (college is lower or undergrad training, just so you know for the future!), OF COURSE. God teaches everyone his truths through his Word.

God taught me before I was in Seminary, that I cannot lose my salvation. That was the turning point in my Christian walk. That is when God was finally able to really start transforming me, because I was not constantly worrying about myself, but instead, following Christ. All seminary did was give me the words to use when discussing this. So please, no more with this red herring of yours.

PS. I know several people who still believe they can lose their salvation, including my husband. He has never grown, always living in abject fear that God is going to cast him out. I do not try and teach him, but after sitting under 3 pastors who have shown him the Scriptures in their sermons and their lives, he still is trapped in the lie of Arminianism. I pray for him daily, to have the peace and the security of knowing that God saves us, and he will not let us go!

I also pray for those who might read the posts here, that they would discern the truth of God's love and sovereignty, and know that Jesus saves for all eternity, from the moment he calls a person his own. It is not by our works, our fruits, or anything we do that we are saved. God saves! From start to finish!

Again if you or your husband lived in fear when taught about one can walk away from the faith in Christ and not end up with eternal life. Then you were taught wrong by that church in the way they handled the teaching, not in the teaching itself.

1 John 2-4 is a good read for believers to let them know they have eternal life to get rid of any worry about being in that boat.

And again I never said anything about our own works, our own fruit saving us, so please stop with this !!!

Works of the faith and the fruit of the Holy Spirit are proof of one who is truly saved through Christ. Jesus Christ Himself said those who do not have that fruit will be cut off and burned, and this does not have anything to do with 1 Corinthians 3 as one from Jesus is separating believers who abide in Him from unbelievers/disobedient who do not abide in Him. And Paul is talking about faithfulness by believers in the faith !!!
 
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KennethC

Guest
Show me what Jesus said for us to do that cannot be summed up in faith and love.
Faith and love does not mean you don't have to do it, as for a true faith and true love will show in obedience to do as the Lord Jesus commanded us to do.
 
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KennethC

Guest
This reminds me of Hebrews 7:25.

Hebrews 7:25King James Version (KJV)

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Jesus, our High Priest! :D
Do not forget those 3 words in red as there is another side shown in the bible, and that is those that for one reason or another walk away from Him.

Apostle James says unless they return to the Lord when this happens their soul will not be saved !!!