The Law Debacle Resolved
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John 5:44-47
[SUP]44 [/SUP]How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
How can a person ever believe Jesus' words while denying His own Father's words at the same time? Lost much?
[SUP]44 [/SUP]How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
How can a person ever believe Jesus' words while denying His own Father's words at the same time? Lost much?
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E
oh now come one...that is not even remotely close to anything going on here
once again, the old 'you who pervert obedience' arguement is brought up
that is not what we are saying
we are saying that we cannot do anything to add to the work of Christ
we are saying we trust totally in the work of Christ for our salvation
AND we do good works as led by the Spirit of God...which include refuting the desire to add to scripture
do you see yourself as the enemy? I don't see any other Christian as the enemy but maybe it is time some stop acting as though they were the enemy
Can you see nothing of Christ to love in another without chiding them because they are not exactly as you are?
I know exactly what I am saying...please, let's not try to mimic Christ as though we fancied ourselves in martyrdom over disagreement
Accusing others of perverting what is in scripture puts one in the very precarious postion of calling God down to have a look see into their own affairs
Why is it that you consider yourself somehow closer aligned to Christ than anyone else to the point of telling us what to believe?
God is good! He reveals the truth to hungry hearts and searching minds..God alone satisfies!
E
lets just take paul at his word.
The law leads to Faith in Christ. And after the law is no longer needed. (I see you do not respond to anything I said when I showed how the law was a schoolmaster. maybe yuo still need a guide to get there? Thats why you want to keep it)
How many people who left Egypt and was given the law entered the promised land.
The law leads to Faith in Christ. And after the law is no longer needed. (I see you do not respond to anything I said when I showed how the law was a schoolmaster. maybe yuo still need a guide to get there? Thats why you want to keep it)
How many people who left Egypt and was given the law entered the promised land.
Because your trying to pit scripture against scripture, just as you are trying to pit the spiritual law against the Spirit of Christ who gave it to Moses. But to answer your question....
Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
The Bible says when we receive the Spirit we put on Christ,and Jesus said we can be like Him,and Jesus said,we will do greater works than Him,because He goes to the Father,which means we will reach out to a greater number of people,for we will impact the world,of course through Christ,and Jesus said if we do not obey His commandments we do not love Him.
If we do follow Jesus' teachings we will do what pleases the Father,and if people study Christ,and what He did,then they will know what is required of them to please the Father.
The Bible says love is the fulfilling of the law,and if you are led of the Spirit you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh,so we can do what Jesus did if we have the Spirit,which is to show love,like He did,but one thing we cannot do,and that is provide salvation,or save our self,but we can live the same lifestyle as Jesus if we are led by the Spirit.
If we go by how Jesus behaved while on earth,that is what we have to do to please God,and nothing more.
If we do follow Jesus' teachings we will do what pleases the Father,and if people study Christ,and what He did,then they will know what is required of them to please the Father.
The Bible says love is the fulfilling of the law,and if you are led of the Spirit you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh,so we can do what Jesus did if we have the Spirit,which is to show love,like He did,but one thing we cannot do,and that is provide salvation,or save our self,but we can live the same lifestyle as Jesus if we are led by the Spirit.
If we go by how Jesus behaved while on earth,that is what we have to do to please God,and nothing more.
E
That's a common misunderstanding and contrary to scripture. The law is holy, just, and good. The law of Moses is not sin.
Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
The law of sin and death is much like the reality of the law of gravity, were all firstborn under the bondage of it.
Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
The law of sin and death is much like the reality of the law of gravity, were all firstborn under the bondage of it.
So the law given, which we are told if one did not obey ALL of the words written we were cursed (death) and that law is not the law of death Paul spoke
of course the law is good. I never said it was not. But that does not mean it is not the law which cayuses death.
And why is one cursed for not keeping the law? Because sin is transgression of the law, which brings forth death. Therefore sin is the element that brings forth the curse of the law, not the law itself. Paul shows the same here....
Romans 7:10-13 "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.[SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Also people need to understand there are 2 spiritual laws at work, not to confuse the law of the spirit of life with the law of sin and death. Paul here shows the divisions and struggles between the two (flesh/ Spirit) in this example...
Romans 7:20-23 "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
So again, the law of sin and death is not the same as the law of God and righteousness in Christ Jesus.
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 7:10-13 "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.[SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Also people need to understand there are 2 spiritual laws at work, not to confuse the law of the spirit of life with the law of sin and death. Paul here shows the divisions and struggles between the two (flesh/ Spirit) in this example...
Romans 7:20-23 "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
So again, the law of sin and death is not the same as the law of God and righteousness in Christ Jesus.
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
A
A misquote of 1 John 3:4. Not your fault I'm sure; you just haven't looked deep enough into it. That verse does not say "sin is transgression of the law" in the Greek, but simply "sin is lawlessness". John did not specify what law, so your attempt to define sin as transgressing the law of Moses is presumptuous. Lawlessness is violating the revealed will of GOD.
More perversion of what has been posted..
how many times do people such as you need to be told no child of obedience believes he is earing salvation. Tell me now. How many times?
It is futile responding to the likes of you, constantly throwing these perverse unmentioned tenants into the mix. It is diabolical, and fruitless.
Where in this thread do you see me or any other child of obedience suggesting he is earning salvation?
That is a wicked thing to purport...........wicked. good bye.
how many times do people such as you need to be told no child of obedience believes he is earing salvation. Tell me now. How many times?
It is futile responding to the likes of you, constantly throwing these perverse unmentioned tenants into the mix. It is diabolical, and fruitless.
Where in this thread do you see me or any other child of obedience suggesting he is earning salvation?
That is a wicked thing to purport...........wicked. good bye.
One must be very careful to understand about God's laws according to the New Covenant, since our Lord Jesus came and died upon the cross for the remission of sins of those who believe.
God's laws included ordinances, statutes, commandments, and judgments. What our Lord Jesus nailed to His cross mainly were the 'ordinances' in the law. That involved the things involving blood sacrifices, religious ritual and ceremonial laws, etc. Our Lord Jesus did not nail everything to His cross.
Notice what Apostle Paul taught about God's laws according to The Gospel entrusted with him...
1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
KJV
No one is saved by following and keeping God's law. We are saved only... by His Grace through His Son's Blood shed upon the cross.
But does that mean God's people no longer need God's laws? Of course not, because it's easy to see how the wicked, etc., are still very much in need of it, because according to Apostle Paul, the wicked is who the law was made for, in order that God's people might have peace and prosper.
According to the prophecy Jacob gave his twelve sons all the way back in Genesis 49, Judah was to be keeper over God's law until "Shiloh" (Christ) comes to gather His Church. And it still is mainly in their hands today, even though many of them have allowed corruptors to creep in among them today that are changing the law and the times.
God's laws included ordinances, statutes, commandments, and judgments. What our Lord Jesus nailed to His cross mainly were the 'ordinances' in the law. That involved the things involving blood sacrifices, religious ritual and ceremonial laws, etc. Our Lord Jesus did not nail everything to His cross.
Notice what Apostle Paul taught about God's laws according to The Gospel entrusted with him...
1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
KJV
No one is saved by following and keeping God's law. We are saved only... by His Grace through His Son's Blood shed upon the cross.
But does that mean God's people no longer need God's laws? Of course not, because it's easy to see how the wicked, etc., are still very much in need of it, because according to Apostle Paul, the wicked is who the law was made for, in order that God's people might have peace and prosper.
According to the prophecy Jacob gave his twelve sons all the way back in Genesis 49, Judah was to be keeper over God's law until "Shiloh" (Christ) comes to gather His Church. And it still is mainly in their hands today, even though many of them have allowed corruptors to creep in among them today that are changing the law and the times.
A
I believe you do from what I've seen of you on these boards. I really do. So, why did you're first post just reflect the dire strait we're in without Jesus working in us? I mean that very next paragraph after where you finished is the good stuff -- the teaspoon of sugar after the teaspoon of cod liver oil goodness! The answer to what a wretched soul we are stuff. The glory of God working in us. The spring in our step.
Romans 8: 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
You're not disagreeing with Jaume. You're agreeing. But after weeks and weeks of "I'm better than you" on this board, it's hard not to have the impulse to disagree just because it seems the thing to do. You rest in God's grace? Sure, but you're also actively seeking God, just like Jaume. Because you both know who he is and want more and more of him.
I actually think you and Jaume are preaching the same thing. Try assuming that and then reread.
Am I wrong?
Romans 8: 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
You're not disagreeing with Jaume. You're agreeing. But after weeks and weeks of "I'm better than you" on this board, it's hard not to have the impulse to disagree just because it seems the thing to do. You rest in God's grace? Sure, but you're also actively seeking God, just like Jaume. Because you both know who he is and want more and more of him.
I actually think you and Jaume are preaching the same thing. Try assuming that and then reread.
Am I wrong?
The whole law was nullified (abolished).
For [Christ] is our peace, who has made both [Jew and gentile] one, destroying the middle wall of the barrier, the enmity, in his flesh; having abolished the law (nomos) of commandments (entoles) contained in ordinances (dogmas); that of the two he should make in himself one new man, so making peace. Ephesians 2:14-15
abolish
G2673 καταργέω katargeo
1. to make entirely idle
GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON of the NEW TESTAMENT BASED ON SEMANTIC DOMAINS
76.26 καταργέωc: to render ineffective the power or force of something—‘to invalidate, to abolish, to cause not to function.’ τὸν νόμον τῶν ἐντολῶν ἐν δόγμασιν καταργήσας ‘to abolish the Law of commandments consisting of regulations’ Eph 2:15;
For [Christ] is our peace, who has made both [Jew and gentile] one, destroying the middle wall of the barrier, the enmity, in his flesh; having abolished the law (nomos) of commandments (entoles) contained in ordinances (dogmas); that of the two he should make in himself one new man, so making peace. Ephesians 2:14-15
abolish
G2673 καταργέω katargeo
1. to make entirely idle
GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON of the NEW TESTAMENT BASED ON SEMANTIC DOMAINS
76.26 καταργέωc: to render ineffective the power or force of something—‘to invalidate, to abolish, to cause not to function.’ τὸν νόμον τῶν ἐντολῶν ἐν δόγμασιν καταργήσας ‘to abolish the Law of commandments consisting of regulations’ Eph 2:15;
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