The Law Debacle Resolved

[Budman]

No one can keep the Law perfectly. The Law is simply a schoolmaster to drive one to the cross. Even the Jews, to whom the Law was given, could not keep it. The Law is meant only to show our sinfulness, and need for a savior.

The Law does not apply to the saved because all of it's requirements were fulfilled by Christ at Calvary on our behalf. God's justice is satisfied.

 

[Kefa54]

So your perfect?

YES...In Christ I am made perfect. Holman Christian Standard Bible
Hebrews 10;14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified.


Kefa

 

[eternally-gratefull]

YES...In Christ I am made perfect. Holman Christian Standard Bible
Hebrews 10;14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified.


Kefa

Yes, as am I.

But I asked, according to the law. Was he or she perfect.

 

[Kefa54]

Why would I turn to the law when I have the Holly Spirit living in me. The mighty counselor.

Kefa

Are you telling me the law has no importance because you're Gentile?

 

[Kefa54]

Pretty much. The law was Jewish. I am not Jewish.

Are you telling me the law has no importance because you're Gentile?

 

[Least]

But then there are these truths that aren't in the Bible:
-- 1 + 1 = 2
-- The colder the region, the bigger the deer.
-- If you are born in America, you are an American.
-- The Phillies and Sixers had a terrible season last season.
-- The earth orbits the sun.

Are these not truth too?

The Bible is a book that tells the truth about God. It doesn't tell all truth, because some truth isn't all that important in the Truth of God. The Bible contains the important truths about God.

atwhatcost, Those are all natural things and about the world. Every person alive can study or find the answers to these things just by hitting google.

I guess it depends on what kind of truth a person is looking for. If it's heavenly things...I'd stick with the word.

The word of God takes us into heavenly things in Christ.

 

[DP]

If you believe that, then you don't believe Romans 7 and 8?

I believe what Apostle Paul said both in 1 Timothy 1, and in those Romans 7 and 8 chapters.

And I also heed our Lord Jesus' commandment for how we are to pray per Luke 11, which includes asking forgiveness of our sins, and that's supposed to be whenever we pray!

Luke 11:2-4
2 And He said unto them, When ye pray, say, "Our Father Which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil."
KJV

Did you not notice Paul's first statement in Romans 8 that has a condition???

Rom 8:1
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
KJV

Walking after the Spirit and not our flesh is the condition, which agrees with what he said in Galatians 5:18.

Gal 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
KJV


Probably should have read the following before going into Rom.7 & 8 also...

Rom 6:12-16
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.


13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.


14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
KJV


According to Paul there, sin is unto death, but obedience is unto righteousness. The difference is that our flesh is already... condemned to death, but our spirit in Christ Jesus is not, if... we walk by The Spirit. This is why we still need to repent to Christ of sins we may commit after having believed on Him and been baptized.

 

[atwhatcost]

Why would I turn to the law when I have the Holly Spirit living in me. The mighty counselor.

Kefa

Why won't you answer the questions I specifically asked you and then directed you too?

(Why are we asking questions constantly when we weren't before? lol)

 

[atwhatcost]

atwhatcost, Those are all natural things and about the world. Every person alive can study or find the answers to these things just by hitting google.

I guess it depends on what kind of truth a person is looking for. If it's heavenly things...I'd stick with the word.

The word of God takes us into heavenly things in Christ.

I still think it's cool God made deer in different sizes the further they are from the equator. lol

 

[just-me]

Grace, Law? What about it? How do we resolve it.

KennethC gave me and all a reminder in Just-Me's wonderful thread on PHARISEES.

Here is the solution.

Do what Jesus teaches and did.

If you feel a need to argue this, you need His help right away.

Thank you Just-Me and KennethC..........

There are three other things in God's law, in addition to the love commandments, that Jesus pointed out to the Pharisees that they missed due to their self righteous smug attitude. Because of missing those things, this was one thing of several that Jesus called them out on, identifying them as hypocrites. (pretenders)

Spiritual understanding is necessary, and there is more than one way to approach the true answer on this matter.

May God bless us with further understanding of each other, and of God's holy word, as His truth impacts us to the very core of our heart, soul, and mind.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Matthew 23:23

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

There are three other things in God's law, in addition to the love commandments, that Jesus pointed out to the Pharisees that they missed due to their self righteous smug attitude. Because of missing those things, this was one thing of several that Jesus called them out on, identifying them as hypocrites. (pretenders)

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Matthew 23:23

Judgment and mercy are love; faith is faith. There are no other commandments besides faith and love.

 

[PeterJens]

Today I cried. I got a light of the reality of walking with the Lord.

Righteousness is about doing the right thing because it is right, it works, it is love, it is appropriate, it helps, it uplifts, it is pure.
It is not to say I am better than you, I am one up, I am proud. It is often I am humble, I am broken, I am quiet and broken but I will meet this need, because it is right.

The alternative to righteous acts leads to destroying things, decay and finally death. It is a betrayal of people and things, its purpose is because of sin, hurt, distortions, revenge, bitterness etc.

We are not part of the righteous thought police, where every thought which is wrong is sin. Thoughts give rise to sin, but thoughts are ideas, constructs that come and go. It is up to you what you do with them.

We know how far we are away from the Lord because our thoughts are often so close to sinful actions, we feel condemned without even sinning. We give up on righteousness, because we think we have to be an angel, and do not recognise our biological flesh that spring up ideas and thoughts that go from the sublime to the totally crude. It is though what you do with them, whether you dwell on them or put them into context, that makes all the difference.

If you walk in righteousness and purity for one hour, that hour in holy. If one hour goes to one day, to one week, to one month, to one year you have walked into the kingdom.

Walking with the Lord is about being in the kingdom. Sin is about rebellious acts done for whatever reason that need resolving and dealing with.

It is only love that purifies and sets things straight, that gives guidance and clarity, ministered by the Holy Spirit.

Listening to some Christians, even when righteousness is imputed to them, they have confessed and repented of all known sin, they still cannot walk as they should. Then surely the Lord died in vain, and in fact it is all meaningless, because there is no such thing as cleansing or living righteously.

But to deny to this degree is deemed correct theology. No it is the theology of condemnation, of being judged, of walking in the flesh and not the Spirit. Yet so many here would claim they have great spiritual understanding but they still believe they cannot walk righteously. So there is no salvation for them. The promise is empty and the words of Paul to Timothy are a lie

"Set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity." 1 Tim 4:12

Good works are the fruit, the outcome of righteousness, for the heart desires to do good things. It is not to say look at this, I am proud, no it is saying these works are gifts of love to other people, showing and expressing the love God has planted within. If pride enters in, am I not such a good person etc. it all starts to go wrong. But again people say the good works are filthy rags as if good works are justification of position rather than the pure expression of being in the Kingdom.

Those who speak like this about good works need to bury themselves in the Love of Jesus and be transformed, because without such fruit you have not found the heart of Jesus.

 

[prove-all]

By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain,
by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts:
and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

​

And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person,
a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

​

27Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off
thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor;
if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.


Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this,
To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction,
and to keep himself [unspotted] from the world.

---

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people,
that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.​

​

 

[gotime]

But the commandment to love one's neighbor is not in the 10 commandments. You said if the 10 commandments are taken away, the rest of the law loses meaning. But as demonstrated by the good Samaritan, it is the command to love that gives the 10 commandments meaning.

Technically, neither the priest nor the Levite stole anything from the wounded man, yet they sinned because they didn't have mercy on him. That's why the 10 commandments are limited in what they can teach us about sin and righteousness. However, they are perfect at condemning sin.

The 10 are not limited at all unless you surface read them. there is not a sin that they do not condemn. Love is the greatest but it is not different.

it is murder to be angry with your brother without a cause. a surface reading of do not murder would never see that. But one who meditates on the law as David did would indeed see such things.

A surface reading of do not commit adultery would not think anything of looking at a woman with lust. But those who meditate upon the law as David did will indeed see such things as sin.

I think and correct me if I have misunderstood you here. but you seem to think that the two great commandments and the 10 are not connected. but they are totally connected.

you show me someone who breaks any of the 10 and you have showed me someone who does not have the love of God in their heart. That is why Jesus kept them not because he had to but because he was love.

Someone may ask if i am to love God and love my neighbor then what does that look like. one could say read the commandments in the old testament for this is love. in the new its no different except it is. I know sounds like a contradiction. IN the new we have one who actually loved as God wants, and thus kept all 10 perfectly, Jesus. So now we have an example of the 10 commandments in action perfectly seen in the Son of God.

But if someone says they have Jesus living in them and they do not keep the 10 then the love of God is not perfected in them.

 

[atwhatcost]

I believe what Apostle Paul said both in 1 Timothy 1, and in those Romans 7 and 8 chapters.

And I also heed our Lord Jesus' commandment for how we are to pray per Luke 11, which includes asking forgiveness of our sins, and that's supposed to be whenever we pray!

Luke 11:2-4
2 And He said unto them, When ye pray, say, "Our Father Which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil."
KJV

Did you not notice Paul's first statement in Romans 8 that has a condition???

Rom 8:1
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
KJV

Walking after the Spirit and not our flesh is the condition, which agrees with what he said in Galatians 5:18.

Gal 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
KJV


Probably should have read the following before going into Rom.7 & 8 also...

Rom 6:12-16
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.


13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.


14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
KJV


According to Paul there, sin is unto death, but obedience is unto righteousness. The difference is that our flesh is already... condemned to death, but our spirit in Christ Jesus is not, if... we walk by The Spirit. This is why we still need to repent to Christ of sins we may commit after having believed on Him and been baptized.

He also said if it weren't for the law we would not have known sin. We would not have known coveting, if the law didn't teach us what it is. And sin seizes the opportunity through the Law. All this right after he said, is the law sin -- heavens no! (Paraphrasing, but that's the gist.)

He really does cover this whole gambit through 7 and 8. It's complicated. It certainly isn't the way humans usually think. But it's also thorough and God inspired.

 

[DP]

He also said if it weren't for the law we would not have known sin. We would not have known coveting, if the law didn't teach us what it is. And sin seizes the opportunity through the Law. All this right after he said, is the law sin -- heavens no! (Paraphrasing, but that's the gist.)

He really does cover this whole gambit through 7 and 8. It's complicated. It certainly isn't the way humans usually think. But it's also thorough and God inspired.

I think... I understand what you mean. I realize he was showing us in Romans 7 that it is impossible while in the flesh to keep from sin, with that intention being to point to God's Salvation by grace through His Son.

I'm able to go deeper about that chapter though, because Paul is showing us the condemnation of this imperfect world with our flesh being a part of it; i.e...

Rom 7:18
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
KJV


Rom 7:22-25
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV

That is one of the reasons why I still mostly stick with the 1611 KJV, because Apostle Paul made a clear distinction that this flesh body we have today is one of our major problems with causing us to sin. No one can escape it; only our Lord Jesus could because He is Immanuel, God with us, having come in the flesh and had no sin.

But men's traditions have crept into later Bible translations trying replace that distinction between our flesh and our spirit with humanist philosophy. What Paul revealed there points all the more our continued need to examine ourselves and repent to Christ, asking forgiveness of future sin we may commit.

 

[gotime]

I disagree. I'm in this state to this day:
Rom. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?

Sorry to hear that, know that there is freedom from that state in Christ.

 

[atwhatcost]

I think... I understand what you mean. I realize he was showing us in Romans 7 that it is impossible while in the flesh to keep from sin, with that intention being to point to God's Salvation by grace through His Son.

I'm able to go deeper about that chapter though, because Paul is showing us the condemnation of this imperfect world with our flesh being a part of it; i.e...

Rom 7:18
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
KJV


Rom 7:22-25
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV

That is one of the reasons why I still mostly stick with the 1611 KJV, because Apostle Paul made a clear distinction that this flesh body we have today is one of our major problems with causing us to sin. No one can escape it; only our Lord Jesus could because He is Immanuel, God with us, having come in the flesh and had no sin.

But men's traditions have crept into later Bible translations trying replace that distinction between our flesh and our spirit with humanist philosophy. What Paul revealed there points all the more our continued need to examine ourselves and repent to Christ, asking forgiveness of future sin we may commit.

Bingo!

I'm hearing Ode to Joy in my head now.

Agreement! AND on CC! Woohoo!

 

[atwhatcost]

Sorry to hear that, know that there is freedom from that state in Christ.

Sorry to hear you're unwilling to fight the good fight. God wins!

 

[JaumeJ]

Jesus Christ, the Good Shepherd, had two flocks, the original comprised of teh Children of Israel, and another flock, gentiles, whom He was to gather with the original flock.

He was born a Jew, lived as a Jew, and died the King of the Jews. He is our King.

He is teh Gate of the enemies of the Children of Israel, that being gentiles.

It seems tome if we have entered the Gate promised to Abrahams's descendants we are joining those inside. If we are subjects of teh King of the Jews, we are all Jews, and if we are to follow after Him in our lives we are to live as did He.

Keep in mind when Leah named Judah, she di so because she said, I will now praise YIah (Yahweh). This last phrase is more or the definition of the name, Judah, from which we have the shortened version Jew.

So if Jesus Christ is not your Example, if He is not you rKing, you do not praise God etc., then perhaps you are not Jewish.

Pretty much. The law was Jewish. I am not Jewish.