Burning Gay Flags?

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BenFTW said:
I would think you would come in agreement and not question my integrity Willie. Did I say something you disagree with? Did I say something that was condemning of homosexuals or any member of the LGBT community? No, I pointed out the error of a church politically standing in agreement with the LGBT community at the cost of not allowing God's grace to set them free from sin. I don't see why you would feel the need to speak to me in such a way.

I have already pointed out that both perspectives exist, where the flag is used to endorse sin and another to be welcoming of a persecuted group. I, again, ask Willie, did I say something wrong?
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Since we are finally getting honest here, don't you think we should be, FIRST, going to any church (or person) we are concerned with, and finding out what they REALLY mean by such a flag, before we decide what their intentions and goals are? We are not doing that in this thread.

AND, are we of the mind that if a homosexual person walks through our "sacred" doors, or hears our "holy" speech, that they must, immediately, cease all deviant desires, and "come clean", on the spot? Did you? I didn't, nor, I suspect did a whopping majority of "Christians." God bless those who heard that first sermon, and became model people within minutes. I wasn't one of them, and I will not press that "requirement" on anyone else.

I fully doubt that anyone I talk to will "snap to perfection" just because I quoted some Bible at them... or even if I just tried to be their friend over a period of weeks or even months. I know many people, including myself, in my own church, are still sinning, to this day. But, I can't be like some here, and just tell them.... "That's it! I TOLD you how God feels about what you still do. Now get out of "MY" church.

I have a different view of The Great Commission than some. I don't think Jesus told me to deliver fourteen minutes of "how it is" to people, and then walk away. I think He told me "to make disciples"..... even if that takes me half a year... or three years... or the rest of the time that I know someone.

Should they, eventually, be "trying" and desiring to change? Of course. But I can't set "their time" for them, anymore than I can expect them to walk through our church doors if I make no effort (no matter HOW uncomfortable) to let them know they are welcome to worship with us.

And, unlike some here, if a homosexual has been coming to our place for several months, and they are STILL homosexual, I do not feel I have the right to lock the door when they walk up. You may be satisfied with saying, "Well, Jesus stated things in six words, and only that once!" I am not. But, you see, I am not Jesus.
 
Willie-T said:
Since we are finally getting honest here, don't you think we should be, FIRST, going to any church (or person) we are concerned with, and finding out what they REALLY mean by such a flag, before we decide what their intentions and goals are? We are not doing that in this thread.

AND, are we of the mind that if a homosexual person walks through our "sacred" doors, or hears our "holy" speech, that they must, immediately, cease all deviant desires, and "come clean", on the spot? Did you? I didn't, nor, I suspect did a whopping majority of "Christians." God bless those who heard that first sermon, and became model people within minutes. I wasn't one of them, and I will not press that "requirement" on anyone else.

I fully doubt that anyone I talk to will "snap to perfection" just because I quoted some Bible at them... or even if I just tried to be their friend over a period of weeks or even months. I know many people, including myself, in my own church, are still sinning, to this day. But, I can't be like some here, and just tell them.... "That's it! I TOLD you how God feels about what you still do. Now get out of "MY" church.

I have a different view of The Great Commission than some. I don't think Jesus told me to deliver fourteen minutes of "how it is" to people, and then walk away. I think He told me "to make disciples"..... even if that takes me half a year... or three years... or the rest of the time that I know someone.

Should they, eventually, be "trying" and desiring to change? Of course. But I can't set "their time" for them, anymore than I can expect them to walk through our church doors if I make no effort (no matter HOW uncomfortable) to let them know they are welcome to worship with us.

And, unlike some here, if a homosexual has been coming to our place for several months, and they are STILL homosexual, I do not feel I have the right to lock the door when they walk up. You may be satisfied with saying, "Well, Jesus stated things in six words, and only that once!" I am not. But, you see, I am not Jesus.
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I like you. You're fair minded.
 
Willie-T said:
Since we are finally getting honest here, don't you think we should be, FIRST, going to any church (or person) we are concerned with, and finding out what they REALLY mean by such a flag, before we decide what their intentions and goals are? We are not doing that in this thread.

AND, are we of the mind that if a homosexual person walks through our "sacred" doors, or hears our "holy" speech, that they must, immediately, cease all deviant desires, and "come clean", on the spot? Did you? I didn't, nor, I suspect did a whopping majority of "Christians." God bless those who heard that first sermon, and became model people within minutes. I wasn't one of them, and I will not press that "requirement" on anyone else.

I fully doubt that anyone I talk to will "snap to perfection" just because I quoted some Bible at them... or even if I just tried to be their friend over a period of weeks or even months. I know many people, including myself, in my own church, are still sinning, to this day. But, I can't be like some here, and just tell them.... "That's it! I TOLD you how God feels about what you still do. Now get out of "MY" church.

I have a different view of The Great Commission than some. I don't think Jesus told me to deliver fourteen minutes of "how it is" to people, and then walk away. I think He told me "to make disciples"..... even if that takes me half a year... or three years... or the rest of the time that I know someone.

Should they, eventually, be "trying" and desiring to change? Of course. But I can't set "their time" for them, anymore than I can expect them to walk through our church doors if I make no effort (no matter HOW uncomfortable) to let them know they are welcome to worship with us.

And, unlike some here, if a homosexual has been coming to our place for several months, and they are STILL homosexual, I do not feel I have the right to lock the door when they walk up. You may be satisfied with saying, "Well, Jesus stated things in six words, and only that once!" I am not. But, you see, I am not Jesus.
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Okay, now stepping back. Did anything I say go contrary to any of that? You have offended me Willie, you act as if I am being condemning and throwing down a hammer of judgement. In regards to figuring out of the church's intentions, it is a general topic, not dealing with a particular church. Each church surely has their own intentions, and some are endorsing homosexuality for the fact they don't believe its a sin.

Part of the GCN's (Gay Christian Network) approach is in defining two sides, a and b. A represents Christians who believe it is okay to be in a same sex relationship where as B believes in celibacy for homosexuals, as Christian homosexuals. Type A go so far as to say the Word has been misrepresented and homosexuality is not condemned, but is okay for the NT believer. A will say that it was in Leviticus and only applied to Israel, so it is no longer an abomination and was only so for Israel. Where as B stands by the bible and defines the act of homosexuality as a sin but the homosexuals themselves are not condemned for being homosexual (whilst not acting). So, as you can see there is more to this than just a flag, but people actually going so far as to say homosexuality/LGBT isn't a sin at all and they can be in a same sex relationship and be Christian at the same time (maintaining their Christian witness).

People do have good intentions, but don't forget that there are those who don't.
 
Willie-T said:
I apologize. I didn't know you had been in communication with any of these churches, to know their policies and intentions.... but obviously, you must have been.
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Check out the following....

www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/ny-drapes-alter-steps-with-gay-flag

Or....

Despite Rainbow Flag Thefts, This Church Is Still Devoted To The LGBT Community


Looking on the internet these were the only two stories I found on the issue.Read them and get back to me if you still believe they arent supporting the gay agenda. I'll wait...
 
Willie-T said:
Since we are finally getting honest here, don't you think we should be, FIRST, going to any church (or person) we are concerned with, and finding out what they REALLY mean by such a flag, before we decide what their intentions and goals are? We are not doing that in this thread.

AND, are we of the mind that if a homosexual person walks through our "sacred" doors, or hears our "holy" speech, that they must, immediately, cease all deviant desires, and "come clean", on the spot? Did you? I didn't, nor, I suspect did a whopping majority of "Christians." God bless those who heard that first sermon, and became model people within minutes. I wasn't one of them, and I will not press that "requirement" on anyone else.

I fully doubt that anyone I talk to will "snap to perfection" just because I quoted some Bible at them... or even if I just tried to be their friend over a period of weeks or even months. I know many people, including myself, in my own church, are still sinning, to this day. But, I can't be like some here, and just tell them.... "That's it! I TOLD you how God feels about what you still do. Now get out of "MY" church.

I have a different view of The Great Commission than some. I don't think Jesus told me to deliver fourteen minutes of "how it is" to people, and then walk away. I think He told me "to make disciples"..... even if that takes me half a year... or three years... or the rest of the time that I know someone.

Should they, eventually, be "trying" and desiring to change? Of course. But I can't set "their time" for them, anymore than I can expect them to walk through our church doors if I make no effort (no matter HOW uncomfortable) to let them know they are welcome to worship with us.

And, unlike some here, if a homosexual has been coming to our place for several months, and they are STILL homosexual, I do not feel I have the right to lock the door when they walk up. You may be satisfied with saying, "Well, Jesus stated things in six words, and only that once!" I am not. But, you see, I am not Jesus.
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Quote "unlike some here".... Be careful Willie,you're making an assumption there. Just because I disagree with a gay flag hung off a church doesnt mean ban gays from church. There is grace and there is cheapening grace,fine line. Gay flag is not needed to win someone to Christ anymore than a church building is.
 
BenFTW said:
What did you read? Can you provide a link (to the article)?
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I do have a habit of mentioning my source, but this time it was difficult to find a suitable one. This thread was intended for the 'News Forum' at first, but most articles I read called the 'vandalizing' of gay flags etc a 'crime,' or were more or less positive about the gay flags, so I didn't really want to use those articles. So I decided to use my own words (risky in my case but necessary) and this automatically became a thread for the 'Bible Discussion Forum' instead. If you want to find recent articles on this issue just google for 'news,' using search terms 'gay flag church.'
 
Okay, for some reason I cant quote anyone anymore on this site, but Omni said something about homosexuality being "fiercley reviled" or whatever by followers of Christ, I wanted to point out that this isnt even close to true, and the only reason the Christian community is focusing on it so much is because the entire world is currently focusing on it atm. The world is pushing more for immorality, so it is the job of His followers to spread the Gospel.

Its not that the Christian community has decided to single out the gays or any of this nonsense. And gays are often treated as wrongly as couples who have cheated on each other or other types of sin, condemnation by those who are condemned is an unfortunate problem within Christianity.


And yeah, be accepting of all people who want to come to Christ, and vandilism and flag burning is wrong, but that doesnt make hanging this flag on a church okay, its still wrong. It does tell those walking by, especially young people, that living the homosexual life is okay, and right with God. It gives the wrong message, and it is wrong.

You can say all are welcomed, but hanging a flag in support of the sin is still wrong. And I disagree with it.
 
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FreeNChrist said:
Well, it's a Unitarian "church", hardly surprising.
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Let me ask you, since I know you're of the grace persuasion. Did I say anything wrong in any of my posts on this thread thus far that would make Willie respond in the way that he is, as if I am in opposition to homosexuals? Is my point wrong that the endorsement of sin makes light of the cross where Jesus desires to set us free from sin? Is my concern for image wrong when it is born out of concern that someone might use God's grace to justify sin instead of be victorious over it?

I fail to see why Willie is acting the way he is, maybe he has witnessed too often the condemnation of homosexuals that he doesn't realize I am not condemning them but saying they may have victory in Christ. It bothers me that he, as a believer in grace, isn't standing by the grace I am representing, or putting forth. Have I spoke condemnation? Have I alienated homosexuals? No. I addressed the issue of using the rainbow flag for the endorsement of homosexual unions, on a church, as believers in Christ so as to say that God's grace justifies your lifestyle so have fun. It is a political stance at times and not a welcoming in of sinners, but a justifying of sin. Is that perspective wrong? Please, enlighten me.
 
Omni said:
I think it's totally possible that people who own churches and hang those flags, do so as though to say: "this house accepts sinners of all stripes", not, "sin is absolutely okay". The reason for this, I would imagine, is because, although the bible lists a multitude of actions that are offensive to God, for some reason this particular sin is more often fiercely reviled, and those who practice it are shunned and defamed and dehumanized by many churches. Those churches who hang those flags, perhaps have congregations who do not take any more a militant attitude towards homosexuality than they do to say adultery for instance.

I would imagine that very few churches actively practice a doctrine of "being homosexual is acceptable to God", but that those who do hang such flags instead practice a doctrine of "being homosexual is no less acceptable to God than being divorced". There is a difference there. To let gay people know "this is a church where you're welcome, if you want to follow God", is probably helpful for homosexual people to identify the churches they can enter and be treated just the same as any other person who performs a multitude of different actions that are offensive to God. As I understand it, there's nobody who doesn't offend God in some way or other, through their behaviours.
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You can be accepting of the person without showing support of a lifestyle. You show you support a lifestyle when you use the gay flag.I found only two stories on the issue and both accept the lifestyle and do not believe it is wrong.So there are other ways of showing you love the person but not accepting of the sin.

Now you brought up divorce and adultery. Ive traveled in a lot of churches,a LOT. I traveled for 20yrs in ministry. In many churches if you are divorced there are certain offices you cannot hold. If you are in adultery and it becomes known you are asked to step down from office. Now I cant speak for how every church handles these issues but Im just telling you my experience.

I think the issue with gays in the church is that people do not know if homosexuality may cause a person to be attracted to young boys. There was a lot of abuse of children with the RC church and I think that is an issue when gays are coming to church. Also many people do not want their children exposed to the gay lifestyle. Gays coming to church as a couple and being affectionate as a straight couple would be,some people dont want their children exposed to that. So there are some issues there. I almost wonder if a separate service would be the best way to go. I dont know.But a gay flag hanging from a church isn't necessary and to me it is offensive.
 
BenFTW said:
Let me ask you, since I know you're of the grace persuasion. Did I say anything wrong in any of my posts on this thread thus far that would make Willie respond in the way that he is, as if I am in opposition to homosexuals? Is my point wrong that the endorsement of sin makes light of the cross where Jesus desires to set us free from sin? Is my concern for image wrong when it is born out of concern that someone might use God's grace to justify sin instead of be victorious over it?

I fail to see why Willie is acting the way he is, maybe he has witnessed too often the condemnation of homosexuals that he doesn't realize I am not condemning them but saying they may have victory in Christ. It bothers me that he, as a believer in grace, isn't standing by the grace I am representing, or putting forth. Have I spoke condemnation? Have I alienated homosexuals? No. I addressed the issue of using the rainbow flag for the endorsement of homosexual unions, on a church, as believers in Christ so as to say that God's grace justifies your lifestyle so have fun. It is a political stance at times and not a welcoming in of sinners, but a justifying of sin. Is that perspective wrong? Please, enlighten me.
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No, you said nothing wrong. You were very articulate and careful in what you said.I thought you nailed it.
 
jennymae said:
What would Jesus done? Yes, it is true that gays are displaying their life style in a manner that can be difficult to understand, but should we be throwing them out of our churches due to that? By doing so we're hardening their hearts, and I dont think anything good will be the outcome then. Jesus has always been the one welcoming everybody, also the ones living in sin and misery, and there is no way we can reach out to people by denying them access to a place where the word of God is spoken.
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3 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Yahushua went up to Jerusalem,

14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: xref-3 [xref-1]

15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up
 
Claiming that a rainbow flag on a church doesnt say that being gay is okay, but rather says we accept those who struggle with the temptation is the same as saying that a nazi flag on a church doesnt say that being a nazi is okay, but rather we accept those who struggle with the temptation. Its a symbol for acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle. Its not something that should be on a building dedicated to spreading Gods word.
 
Jesus was walking amongst all kinda sinners, He still is, I reckon, and we cant turn down sinners coming to our churches in their search for the good Lord, be they gay or whatnot.
 
BenFTW said:
Let me ask you, since I know you're of the grace persuasion. Did I say anything wrong in any of my posts on this thread thus far that would make Willie respond in the way that he is, as if I am in opposition to homosexuals? Is my point wrong that the endorsement of sin makes light of the cross where Jesus desires to set us free from sin? Is my concern for image wrong when it is born out of concern that someone might use God's grace to justify sin instead of be victorious over it?

I fail to see why Willie is acting the way he is, maybe he has witnessed too often the condemnation of homosexuals that he doesn't realize I am not condemning them but saying they may have victory in Christ. It bothers me that he, as a believer in grace, isn't standing by the grace I am representing, or putting forth. Have I spoke condemnation? Have I alienated homosexuals? No. I addressed the issue of using the rainbow flag for the endorsement of homosexual unions, on a church, as believers in Christ so as to say that God's grace justifies your lifestyle so have fun. It is a political stance at times and not a welcoming in of sinners, but a justifying of sin. Is that perspective wrong? Please, enlighten me.
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No you didn't. I understand where Willie is coming from too. I think he was just a little too quick in his conclusions.

We have no right to judge others sins as somehow worse than our own sins. We are to welcome and accept all. But there is a difference between being welcoming and accepting of all and celebrating and condoning sin. Putting up a flag that represents pride in ones sin seems to be the latter. But then it's all a moot point anyway as it is Unitarian Universalist's who are putting that flag up.
 
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