The Law Debacle Resolved

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Grandpa said:
Obedience is a gift.
Trying to obey something that you think is what God wants you to obey is rebellion. Its called leaning on your own understanding.
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The words do not make sense. We are commanded to obey. The question is obey what and how, trying to obey is of the flesh so abandon any attempt or desire to obey, just let Jesus. Now if you expand the idea I might agree with you, but this is just too general. Sin is sin. If you are in it, repent and walk away.

Let me say things in a theortical form. I am angry against my parents for not being able to provide x for me. They stop me going out etc. Now I need to work through many issues to put my frustration into context and stop the anger. The anger is very real, but just trying to stop it will do nothing, because I am not addressing the cause. Obedience would be accepting I am angry but still honouring my parents and not showing my anger, but bringing it before the Lord and working through things as He leads.

Now this is my view on obedience and letting Jesus work through things in my life. But without this content, you could be saying let it rip which for me is real rebellion. Saying obedience is rebellion is turning right into wrong.
 
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HeRoseFromTheDead said:
I call it the idolatry of imagined obedience.
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This is extreme, very extreme. Anyone who does good, literally is worthy of praise, for whatever reason they do it, sinner or saint.

Our problem in the world is with sin, and its denial, and its causes. Jesus criticised the pharisees for their sins, and their covering them up, for their wrong motivations. As christians we can easily end up judging the good when we are actually frustrated at people and looking for excuses to reject and get at them. This is sin in ourselves coming out and nothing to do with the gospel at all.

Be very careful that you have not become an enemy of the gospel while sincerely thinking you are being a real insightful believer.
 
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Our King promised that He will come again. And i think it's a good idea to be ready for His return, seeking first His Kingdom and His Righteousness. And nothing should be more important to us than being ready for His return.
 
Brother_Don said:
Our King promised that He will come again. And i think it's a good idea to be ready for His return, seeking first His Kingdom and His Righteousness. And nothing should be more important to us than being ready for His return.
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How are you gonna do that without obeying Him Brother Don? Close your eyes and hope for the best?
 
Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Romans 8:15
For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"


Mark 7:1-8
The Pharisees and some of the scribes gathered around Him when they had come from Jerusalem, and had seen that some of His disciples were eating their bread with impure hands, that is, unwashed. (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders; read more.
and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the washing of cups and pitchers and copper pots.) The Pharisees and the scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?" And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME. 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.' "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."

If we are still insisting that people follow the law..We are being Pharisees.

Kefa
 
Hello Kefa........

Did you know Kefa is Hebrew? Some believe it may be translated to English as a hollow stone.

Anyway, why to you keep replacing being obedient with being under the law? Is it beyond your comprehension that in glorious gratitude for the grace given us we like to imitate the life of Jesus Christ as best we are given b the Holy Spirit?

Please do not join that chorus of the blind who claim being obedient as taught in Ephesians and throught the Old and New Testaments is being under the law. That is a cheap shot to anyone who is saved by the Blood of the Lamb of God and living in grace.

David always spoke of obedience, yet in Psalm 32 he says blessed is the man whose transgressions are forgiven, against whom God does not impute the guilt of his transgression. This latter is grace, and David knew grace, yet he talso knnw how to obey while under grace. If he did not know this, he would never have been forgiven for his adultery and murder of Uriah.
Please try to leave the many other Davidss (in this regard) t know and worship God as they know.


Obey Jesus Christ, all of what He teaches, and be careful of teaching against obeying God.

Kefa54 said:
Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Romans 8:15
For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"


Mark 7:1-8
The Pharisees and some of the scribes gathered around Him when they had come from Jerusalem, and had seen that some of His disciples were eating their bread with impure hands, that is, unwashed. (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders; read more.
and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the washing of cups and pitchers and copper pots.) The Pharisees and the scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?" And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME. 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.' "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."

If we are still insisting that people follow the law..We are being Pharisees.

Kefa
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As far as I understand it the question is about righteousness, and living righteously.

I would argue if you do not know what this means, read the bible, obey Jesus and you will get spiritual revelation.
If not, I wonder which Jesus you met.

As soon as someone talks about law, love does not reign in their hearts. It is by walking empowered by Jesus's love that things change. Now some of the most "spiritual" people that are highly respected do not know this reality, so understand this, it is not simple realities we are talking about. Some "theological" commentators have been dedicated followers of Jesus, yet have left the faith because love never touched them.

I have had people saying I am talking victorian tea party ideas, not understanding the Methodist revivals were based around love and perfection, holiness, and purity. This is the gospel, do not assume you have fully walked in it until you begin to understand LOVE. You will always only get a glimpse - Love is eternal, God is love, Love drove Jesus to the cross, Love drives mothers to dedicate all their waking hours to help their children, Love drives young men to travel round the world.

Inside yourself you might feel sick, feel this is too hollywood, but that is a lie of the enemy. Love is brutal, love is hard, uncompromising, it withstands hurts, injury, pain, it overcomes any obstacle and climbs all mountains. You can shut it out, bury it in the deepest hole, but if you do, you are shutting out God and bringing judgement, death and sin into your soul.
 
Unless you are a mind reader. You don't have a clue what I comprehend. Why do you attack people with false accusations? I don't see the fruit of the spirit in anything you just posted. I post 12 scriptures of truth and you blow it all off. I am convinced that you are intent to convince everyone to believe your way or no way.

Kefa



JaumeJ said:
Hello Kefa........

Did you know Kefa is Hebrew? Some believe it may be translated to English as a hollow stone.

Anyway, why to you keep replacing being obedient with being under the law? Is it beyond your comprehension that in glorious gratitude for the grace given us we like to imitate the life of Jesus Christ as best we are given b the Holy Spirit?

Please do not join that chorus of the blind who claim being obedient as taught in Ephesians and throught the Old and New Testaments is being under the law. That is a cheap shot to anyone who is saved by the Blood of the Lamb of God and living in grace.

David always spoke of obedience, yet in Psalm 32 he says blessed is the man whose transgressions are forgiven, against whom God does not impute the guilt of his transgression. This latter is grace, and David knew grace, yet he talso knnw how to obey while under grace. If he did not know this, he would never have been forgiven for his adultery and murder of Uriah.
Please try to leave the many other Davidss (in this regard) t know and worship God as they know.


Obey Jesus Christ, all of what He teaches, and be careful of teaching against obeying God.
Click to expand...
 
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Does that make two of us? as PeterJames has indicated, the bottom line always is that Jesus Christ is our righteousness....imitating Him is obedience.........this entails much more than just these wordsd.

Kefa54 said:
Unless you are a mind reader. You don't have a clue what I comprehend. Why do you attack people with false accusations? I don't see the fruit of the spirit in anything you just posted.
Click to expand...
 
JaumeJ said:
Hello Kefa........

Did you know Kefa is Hebrew? Some believe it may be translated to English as a hollow stone.

Anyway, why to you keep replacing being obedient with being under the law? Is it beyond your comprehension that in glorious gratitude for the grace given us we like to imitate the life of Jesus Christ as best we are given b the Holy Spirit?

Please do not join that chorus of the blind who claim being obedient as taught in Ephesians and throught the Old and New Testaments is being under the law. That is a cheap shot to anyone who is saved by the Blood of the Lamb of God and living in grace.

David always spoke of obedience, yet in Psalm 32 he says blessed is the man whose transgressions are forgiven, against whom God does not impute the guilt of his transgression. This latter is grace, and David knew grace, yet he talso knnw how to obey while under grace. If he did not know this, he would never have been forgiven for his adultery and murder of Uriah.
Please try to leave the many other Davidss (in this regard) t know and worship God as they know.


Obey Jesus Christ, all of what He teaches, and be careful of teaching against obeying God.
Click to expand...
I feel the same. When did obedience to Christ become a Jewish law?
 
Good point! Thanks! What truly is offensive is how these Bible experts (I am not one of them) cannot understand that some of our Old Testament forefathers knew of grace and having our righteousness imputed to us by God Himself. David, Moses, Abraham, Noah, Daniel, Elijah, Samuel, Elisha, and the list goes on........that veil of Moses still covers they eyes and hearts of so many, mainly of the new Pharisees. May God have mercy on us all, amen.

zzz98 said:
I feel the same. When did obedience to Christ become a Jewish law?
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[h=1]John 5:30New American Standard Bible (NASB)[/h] [SUP]Jesus himself said this...30 [/SUP]“I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

The gratitude you talk about comes from the spirit in my life. I don't step out in self riotousness and think I can please God in my own strength by following some law..

Kefa


Scripture please. Not just an opinion.
JaumeJ said:
Does that make two of us? as PeterJames has indicated, the bottom line always is that Jesus Christ is our righteousness....imitating Him is obedience.........this entails much more than just these wordsd.
Click to expand...
 
I am glad for you. Now, are you intimating that I believe I can do anything at all for God other than give Him thanks? If you are, you have understood nothing. If you are not, I apologize in advance.

Gratitude, that is thanksgiving, is the only sacrifice we may give to God, as it is written. It struck me just how insufficient we all are that God has to tell us to offer Him the sacrifice of thanksgiving. It is incredible to me, that outr giving Him thanks is a sacrifice. He is great, good and all love. God bless you.........keep working towards the righteous works the reap heavenly reward, and I will also.


Kefa54 said:
John 5:30New American Standard Bible (NASB)

[SUP]Jesus himself said this...30 [/SUP]“I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

The gratitude you talk about comes from the spirit in my life. I don't step out in self riotousness and think I can please God in my own strength by following some law..

Kefa


Scripture please. Not just an opinion.
Click to expand...
 
John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

"Will teach me all things".. If I go off on my own. No matter how good it looks. I am ignoring the Spirit. I am lead by the Spirit. The spirit teaches me, and gives me wisdom on what he wants me to do, and the strength to do it. Many well meaning Christians have burned out under their own strength.


Kefa

Kafa
 
Kefa54 said:
[h=1]John 5:30New American Standard Bible (NASB)[/h] [SUP]Jesus himself said this...30 [/SUP]“I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

The gratitude you talk about comes from the spirit in my life. I don't step out in self riotousness and think I can please God in my own strength by following some law..

Kefa


Scripture please. Not just an opinion.
Click to expand...
isn't seeking Gods will a work? Ah, those pesky works
 
My point is that I can do nothing..NOTHING!! Without God and the Spirit.


Kefa

JaumeJ said:
I am glad for you. Now, are you intimating that I believe I can do anything at all for God other than give Him thanks? If you are, you have understood nothing. If you are not, I apologize in advance.

Gratitude, that is thanksgiving, is the only sacrifice we may give to God, as it is written. It struck me just how insufficient we all are that God has to tell us to offer Him the sacrifice of thanksgiving. It is incredible to me, that outr giving Him thanks is a sacrifice. He is great, good and all love. God bless you.........keep working towards the righteous works the reap heavenly reward, and I will also.
Click to expand...
 
zzz98 said:
I feel the same. When did obedience to Christ become a Jewish law?
Click to expand...

Obedience in the bible has never been done away with as I did a biblical study on this and found between the OT and NT combined there is over 150+ scriptures on obedience to God and the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Obedience nor are the teachings of Jesus Christ from the gospel books part of the Mosaic law !!!
 
Kefa54 said:
My point is that I can do nothing..NOTHING!! Without God and the Spirit.
Kefa
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Amen. Has anyone said they are not like this? Any righteousness I possess is built on Jesus and His love. There is no self righteousness here, it undermines the work of the cross.
 
I don't seek Gods will. Gods will is that I rest in him and his Grace. I rest and hear what HE wants me to do. I don't just go off in self strength and try to please him.

...30 “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.


Kefa


zzz98 said:
isn't seeking Gods will a work? Ah, those pesky works
Click to expand...
 
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