The Law Debacle Resolved

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ember

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#601
#601
Biblelogic01 said:
Ok, so lets go to your post where you state, "the spirit says to help a lady out" (or something along those lines).
As I said in a reply to that.
In Torah there are commands on to help one another out, and help those in needs.
The Spirit knows the Torah.
So based off of the command of helping someone in need, yes the Spirit is going nudge someone to help a lady who needs help for whatever.
So if one is following the commands of loving God and loving their neighbor in the Spirit, yes it's going to lead to the same things that are taught in Torah because that's where the command of loving God and your neighbor comes from. Jesus was quoting Torah when said those were to 2 greatest commands. He wasn't making something new up.
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The Holy Spirit also knows that Christ has fullfileld the obligations of the law

The law was given to point out sin and you know, it still does a great job of that!

We follow Christ...not the law...which no one can keep

There is all the difference in the world right there in these few simple sentences
 
PeterJens

PeterJens

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#602
crossnote said:
Besides, have you met any perfect Christian?
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I do not know. Jesus asked me not to judge, to look at people with an eye of encouragement and praise. I am called to walk in righteousness and purity. Most I have met have been perfect while in my company, but I am not in a position to say anything beyond that.

The point being made was we do not fully know what perfect is, so cannot say someone has arrived or not.
Wesley preached a perfection through faith that all attain to, though may not continually walk in it.

We use the perfection term to mean no future sin, but that might not be Jesus's meaning.

My point is if you say we are called to walk in righteousness and purity, we should learn to do this, failures or no failures.
You do not start walking because you walk perfectly all the time, you start walking until you walk perfectly, but you do not know exactly when that will happen. You know you are walking well until you trip.

Our language of perfection is therefore limited and too ideal.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#603
Nov 24, 2012
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#603
PeterJens said:
I do not know. Jesus asked me not to judge, to look at people with an eye of encouragement and praise. I am called to walk in righteousness and purity. Most I have met have been perfect while in my company, but I am not in a position to say anything beyond that.

The point being made was we do not fully know what perfect is, so cannot say someone has arrived or not.
Wesley preached a perfection through faith that all attain to, though may not continually walk in it.

We use the perfection term to mean no future sin, but that might not be Jesus's meaning.

My point is if you say we are called to walk in righteousness and purity, we should learn to do this, failures or no failures.
You do not start walking because you walk perfectly all the time, you start walking until you walk perfectly, but you do not know exactly when that will happen. You know you are walking well until you trip.

Our language of perfection is therefore limited and too ideal.
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Philippians 3:12-16 (HCSB)
12 Not that I have already reached [the goal] or am already fully mature, but I make every effort to take hold of it because I also have been taken hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brothers, I do not consider myself to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: forgetting what is behind and reaching forward to what is ahead,
14 I pursue as my goal the prize promised by God's heavenly call in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore, all who are mature should think this way. And if you think differently about anything, God will reveal this to you also.
16 In any case, we should live up to whatever [truth] we have attained.

Again, Paul said he even reached full maturity, which is what is often mistaken for perfect but is less than perfect.
No one has reached perfection, not even Wesley. Christ Jesus was perfect.

1 John 3:2 (HCSB) Dear friends, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him as He is.... (but not yet).
 
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PeterJens

PeterJens

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#604
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#604
ember said:
We follow Christ...not the law...which no one can keep
There is all the difference in the world right there in these few simple sentences
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To follow Christ is to obey His commandments. His commandments are to love God, love your neighbour, love your enemy, love the believers as Jesus loves us and lay down our lives for each other.

Now you can only achieve these if you have love in your heart, planted and set free by God through christ.
So doing all this fulfills the law in spirit but not in the letter as the letter is not binding.

Paul calls this being a slave to righteousness, or right living, avoiding immorality, lying, idolatry etc.

But do any of us disagree with these words as they are all from scripture.

I would suggest some of you do, or will invent reasons why this is wrong. None of this is a good idea.
 
crossnote

crossnote

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#605
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crossnote said:
Philippians 3:12-16 (HCSB)
12 Not that I have already reached [the goal] or am already fully mature, but I make every effort to take hold of it because I also have been taken hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brothers, I do not consider myself to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: forgetting what is behind and reaching forward to what is ahead,
14 I pursue as my goal the prize promised by God's heavenly call in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore, all who are mature should think this way. And if you think differently about anything, God will reveal this to you also.
16 In any case, we should live up to whatever [truth] we have attained.

Again, Paul said he HASN'T even reached full maturity, which is what is often mistaken for perfect but is less than perfect.
No one has reached perfection, not even Wesley. Christ Jesus was perfect.

1 John 3:2 (HCSB) Dear friends, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him as He is.... (but not yet).
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Correction made.
 
B

Biblelogic01

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#607
#607
ember said:
The Holy Spirit also knows that Christ has fullfileld the obligations of the law

The law was given to point out sin and you know, it still does a great job of that!

We follow Christ...not the law...which no one can keep

There is all the difference in the world right there in these few simple sentences
Click to expand...

Yes the law points out sin, and I agree it does do a great job.
What I'm stating, is with Jesus in us, we have access to the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is going to guide us in whats right and what's wrong. How does the Spirit know what's right and what's wrong? Because the establishment of what is right and what is wrong is in the Torah, and the Torah makes us physically aware of that, and the Spirit guides us in our walk with Christ. That's what I'm stating, the Spirit knows what sin is, and is going to make us aware of it just as much as if someone reads through the Torah. And then the Spirit also helps us in moral/integrity situations (such as helping someone in need out).

It's all intertwined together which is what a lot of people miss, because different sides are soooo so so so focused on small little specks of the entire picture.
 
PeterJens

PeterJens

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#608
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#608
crossnote said:
No one has reached perfection
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This is a statement of faith, not scriptural. It is like saying no one has ever been 7 foot tall. It is unprovable and only written as a discouragement. We are called to live righteous pure lives.

I can aim to do that but will you?
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#609
#609
crossnote said:
Correction made.
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Like i have said many times, If Paul never reached it, I would be awefull foolish to think I have reached it. I am no where near as mature and trustworthy of Paul.

That keeps me going,, Running the race, never thinking I have made it.

If I think I ever made it, I am in deep trouble
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#611
#611
PeterJens said:
This is a statement of faith, not scriptural. It is like saying no one has ever been 7 foot tall. It is unprovable and only written as a discouragement. We are called to live righteous pure lives.

I can aim to do that but will you?
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Well Christ was perfect..so your sorta right

But who else was perfect?

 
crossnote

crossnote

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#612
Nov 24, 2012
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#612
Biblelogic01 said:
Yes the law points out sin, and I agree it does do a great job.
What I'm stating, is with Jesus in us, we have access to the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is going to guide us in whats right and what's wrong. How does the Spirit know what's right and what's wrong? Because the establishment of what is right and what is wrong is in the Torah, and the Torah makes us physically aware of that, and the Spirit guides us in our walk with Christ. That's what I'm stating, the Spirit knows what sin is, and is going to make us aware of it just as much as if someone reads through the Torah. And then the Spirit also helps us in moral/integrity situations (such as helping someone in need out).

It's all intertwined together which is what a lot of people miss, because different sides are soooo so so so focused on small little specks of the entire picture.
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just don't leave out this minor detail...

Galatians 5:17-18 (HCSB)
17 For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you don't do what you want.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

The continual battle.
 
crossnote

crossnote

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#613
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eternally-gratefull said:

Like i have said many times, If Paul never reached it, I would be awefull foolish to think I have reached it. I am no where near as mature and trustworthy of Paul.

That keeps me going,, Running the race, never thinking I have made it.

If I think I ever made it, I am in deep trouble
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Apparantly some are holding out hope that they have or can reach it :p while in this unredeemed body.
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#614
#614
crossnote said:
Apparantly some are holding out hope that they have or can reach it :p while in this unredeemed body.
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It is so sad seeing people this way, These are usually the hardest hit when the truth comes out about their hidden sins and desires..

If they would just submit to the love of God. These things would not happen. and they would find victory instead of having to be someone they are not.
 
M

MoeT

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#615
Oct 4, 2015
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#615
Kefa54 said:
Well, then according to you I need serious help.
The only person that could "do what Jesus teaches and did" was Jesus. If I could "do what Jesus teaches and did" I wouldn't need Jesus. In my own strength I can't "do what Jesus teaches and did".

Romans 7:15-25
15 For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. a For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it. 19 For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me. 21 So I discover this principle: D, b When I want to do what is good, evil is with me. 22 For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God's law. 23 But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this dying body? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin.


Kefa
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Why do you need scripture to know what you are capable of? Don't you have a reasoning capability to do your own deductions based on real life experiences? If you don't believe you can do it, then you won't for sure.
 
PeterJens

PeterJens

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eternally-gratefull said:
Well Christ was perfect..so your sorta right
But who else was perfect?
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I think this is circular. It is a joke.
You are perfect in the Lord until you fail. When you set that right you are perfect again.

In Gods eyes he sees the seed he planted taking root and bringing forth fruit in righteousness and purity.
Do you not see this in your life? Are you saying he is doing an inperfect work in you?
 
M

MoeT

Banned
#617
Oct 4, 2015
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#617
Kefa54 said:
I prefer some Scripture to prove your point.

I am referring to this Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Chris our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God , but with my flesh, to the law of sin.

AGAIN...If I could "do what Jesus teaches and did" I wouldn't need Jesus. Jesus followed the law perfectly. Jesus fulfilled the law.


Kefa
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If Jesus did it then we can do it. Don't need the scripture to know that. The Holy Spirit is not a book!
 
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MoeT

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#619
Oct 4, 2015
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#619
Good thread. The only laws we have to obey are the laws of our country! After that, everyone is free to do whatever they choose to: be a christian, be a babist, be a singer, and so on... However, nobody shall force you to be what they choose for you!
 
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