The Law Debacle Resolved

[eternally-gratefull]

I think this is circular. It is a joke.
You are perfect in the Lord until you fail. When you set that right you are perfect again.

so I am not perfect. Thank you.

In Gods eyes he sees the seed he planted taking root and bringing forth fruit in righteousness and purity.
Do you not see this in your life? Are you saying he is doing an inperfect work in you?

what I see is the things which are against me (the law) is inside the mercy seat, The blood of Jesus is on top of that seat, so when God looks at me, He sees his sons blood. not my imperfection.

Am I perfect> No. And I will not be until I am ressurection.

But as crossnote said, it does not mean I stop trying. I continue to run the race.

 

[crossnote]

If Jesus did it then we can do it. Don't need the scripture to know that. The Holy Spirit is not a book!

Go walk on water!!

too funny! Everybody is able to do what jesus commanded!

Can I put it on YouTube?

 

[zzz98]

The Holy Spirit also knows that Christ has fullfileld the obligations of the law

The law was given to point out sin and you know, it still does a great job of that!

We follow Christ...not the law...which no one can keep

There is all the difference in the world right there in these few simple sentences

Please, what law are you talking about? It would be nice to know what you are referring to since the word law is being thrown around like a baseball

 

[Kefa54]

I don't have a problem telling people i am perfect. I can screw up anything perfectly.

 

[ember]

I'm not addressing peterjens here...

Originally Posted by PeterJens

I think this is circular. It is a joke.

You are perfect in the Lord until you fail. When you set that right you are perfect again.

My comments following are general and not specific to the poster, but in reply to this error in thinking and doctrine

We are NEVER unrighteous before God...we do not fall in and out of salvation whenever we sin

Salvation is not a revolving door

We also do not live in sin or sin purposefully and without repentance


If we were, then it would mean we must be perfect after salvation as though Christ had not done enough

There is nothing there to joke about. This, is actually the crux of this entire thread

 

[crossnote]

We are reckoned as righteous, justified, perfect (if you will) with the righteousness of Christ on account of faith in Christ...that is our position.

But our actual practice won't reach full maturity/perfection until we dawn these unredeemed bodies at the rapture/resurrection.

 

[PeterJens]

so I am not perfect. Thank you.

Let me understand your idea of perfection. You are suggesting perfection is never getting something wrong and sinning.
I wonder if this is possible even with Jesus. If we have free will, we will always be capable of sin. We are very poor at defining what is or is not sin.

Take a simple concept:-
If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.
James 4:17

If you are conscientious you will condemn yourself deeper into sin and condemnation because of the multitude of things you believe you should do but do not do. But if you constrain this with what is reasonable.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.
rev 21:8

Now this list lays out a list of things to avoid in being righteous.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:22-23

Now this lists helps us see when we are walking in the spirit or the flesh.

But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
1 Cor 5:11
This is a way of telling the righteous from those who are corrupted by sin.

Now it strikes me in this discussion you are ignoring the whole complexity of sin in the fellowship, dealing with it, and a community being a good example of the body of Christ. Or has this language, history, inheritence passed you by.
It is part of the gospel and the example of christian communities everywhere.

 

[zzz98]

I'm not addressing peterjens here...



My comments following are general and not specific to the poster, but in reply to this error in thinking and doctrine

We are NEVER unrighteous before God...we do not fall in and out of salvation whenever we sin

Salvation is not a revolving door

We also do not live in sin or sin purposefully and without repentance


If we were, then it would mean we must be perfect after salvation as though Christ had not done enough

There is nothing there to joke about. This, is actually the crux of this entire thread

I'm having a hard time with this and I apologize. Are the 10 commandments just suggestions now, and when did that change?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I'm having a hard time with this and I apologize. Are the 10 commandments just suggestions now, and when did that change?

They are laws for those with little to no faith. They are instructional history for those with faith.

 

[PeterJens]

This, is actually the crux of this entire thread

The rules of models are not being followed so it is a joke.
You cannot be made perfect, righteous and then say it is only pretend, you are still actually lost.
Holding to this model is ending up with RCC model where you go to confession or ceremonies to be washed until you next fail.

I do not think walking in perfection and failure is about salvation. Salvation is defined by who you are walking with and where you are headed. If you walk away and rebel, yes you have lost your salvation. Some would say the smallest sin is rebellion, so the smallest failure is enough until repented of. Answer is grace, so anything is now ok.

I think this is really like King David caught with Bathsheba. He was not found guilty of adultery, though it was, or murder which it was. His intent was to walk with God, but he fell into sin, but he did not abandon God or calling out to the Lord.

Whether we take a grace view or an aspirational perfection view, we still need a heart that respects righteousness and desires to walk the path. It seems people are so scared of defining anything, and so beaten by right living, especially in marriages and family life, people do not want to sign up. How many here are in their first marriage, with kids, walking in the Lord and things are going ok? I am.

I think this speaks more about where you are coming from and not from what God wants.

 

[ember]

You cannot be made perfect, righteous and then say it is only pretend

and you cannot answer a post without totally distorting or adding to what someone said which is why this is my last post to you and why I no longer respond to you

I made note of what you stated regarding loosing salvation when we sin

that is a grievous error and one that no one should suffer under!

the Bible does not teach such a thing at all...in fact just the opposite

 

[ember]

I'm having a hard time with this and I apologize. Are the 10 commandments just suggestions now, and when did that change?

what are you apologizing for?

I'm having a hard time finding where I stated anything in the Bible is obsolete

 

[PeterJens]

I'm having a hard time with this and I apologize. Are the 10 commandments just suggestions now, and when did that change?

Think about this a little. Which of the 10 commandments are wrong? No christian can argue they have been a mistake.
The areas where clarity is a problem is on having no graven images, and how to fulfill the sabbath. The rest are basic to basic faith and social life.

What amazes me is the shady thinking to suggest these principles are somehow history or even difficult to keep.
It shows how far our culture has changed that the morality behind the 10 commandments is questioned and they are optional.

 

[zzz98]

The rules of models are not being followed so it is a joke.
You cannot be made perfect, righteous and then say it is only pretend, you are still actually lost.
Holding to this model is ending up with RCC model where you go to confession or ceremonies to be washed until you next fail.

I do not think walking in perfection and failure is about salvation. Salvation is defined by who you are walking with and where you are headed. If you walk away and rebel, yes you have lost your salvation. Some would say the smallest sin is rebellion, so the smallest failure is enough until repented of. Answer is grace, so anything is now ok.

I think this is really like King David caught with Bathsheba. He was not found guilty of adultery, though it was, or murder which it was. His intent was to walk with God, but he fell into sin, but he did not abandon God or calling out to the Lord.

Whether we take a grace view or an aspirational perfection view, we still need a heart that respects righteousness and desires to walk the path. It seems people are so scared of defining anything, and so beaten by right living, especially in marriages and family life, people do not want to sign up. How many here are in their first marriage, with kids, walking in the Lord and things are going ok? I am.

I think this speaks more about where you are coming from and not from what God wants.

Yes, and even though David was saved, wasn't he punished for his infidelity with Uriah's wife with the death of his unborn child? 2 Samuel 12:13-15

 

[ember]

Yes, and even though David was saved, wasn't he punished for his infidelity with Uriah's wife with the death of his unborn child? 2 Samuel 12:13-15

sins have consequences....we cannot sin without some sort of consequence, but seriously?

are we all comitting murder?

I don't think so...let's be reasonable and deal with the posts...not conjecture and twisting and trying to make it seem we say something we do not say

that is unreasonable and if that is the only way you can come to see yourself as somehow keeping the law or the spiritual law?

then, you may be simply denying what we are saying here

 

[PeterJens]

I made note of what you stated regarding loosing salvation when we sin

The reason I get tired of these joke interactions because I did not say anything about salvation, I talked about not being perfect. You are perfect until you make a mistake.

Think about the example. I am a tight rope walker. I walk 20ft down the rope, make a mistake and fall off. The trainer says you were perfect until you fell off. So I get back on and carry on.

You projected onto this I was talking about salvation. I was talking about the word perfection. We use it in spiritual terms to mean flawless, not ever to have sinned. We use perfect in other settings to mean while we are doing the particular thing was it perfect or not. It is so assumed in the language you put it on even when I do not mention it.

Now if you cannot even see this, there is little progress that can be made. But you are not interested in progress, as I have noticed over many interactions, just pushing your ideas around. But that approach does not work, I thought you had learnt that. Obviously not.

 

[zzz98]

sins have consequences....we cannot sin without some sort of consequence, but seriously?

are we all comitting murder?

I don't think so...let's be reasonable and deal with the posts...not conjecture and twisting and trying to make it seem we say something we do not say

that is unreasonable and if that is the only way you can come to see yourself as somehow keeping the law or the spiritual law?

then, you may be simply denying what we are saying here

ok, by what you said here sin has consequence. So how is my avoiding sin legalistic? Not saying I am perfect, but I strive to not sin

 

[PeterJens]

Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”
Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the Lord, the son born to you will die.”
1 sam 12:12-14

Yes, and even though David was saved, wasn't he punished for his infidelity with Uriah's wife with the death of his unborn child? 2 Samuel 12:13-15

Yes sin has consequences. But in the discussions here sin is taken lightly, because grace is enough.

Now in part I agree with this. Sin is complex or even things that lead up to sin. All I am trying to put forward is the power placed in the heart of the believer through the Holy Spirit expressed as love.

Ember though has for months dis-liked this type of expression. I do not know why. Maybe it is something she needs more of in her life, I know I do. I never expected such opposition, and am pleased that other believers also reflect my experience with the Lord. What encouraged me still was Wesley preached along these lines as well, so it has a rich tradition in documented christian church history.

In my discussions with muslims it is obvious love is a core failure of Muhammed. It appears likewise among those who claim to follow Jesus, which is extraordinary when Jesus commands us to love everyone, which without His love working in us is literally impossible.

 

[Angela53510]

The rules of models are not being followed so it is a joke.
You cannot be made perfect, righteous and then say it is only pretend, you are still actually lost.
Holding to this model is ending up with RCC model where you go to confession or ceremonies to be washed until you next fail.

I do not think walking in perfection and failure is about salvation. Salvation is defined by who you are walking with and where you are headed. If you walk away and rebel, yes you have lost your salvation. Some would say the smallest sin is rebellion, so the smallest failure is enough until repented of. Answer is grace, so anything is now ok.

I think this is really like King David caught with Bathsheba. He was not found guilty of adultery, though it was, or murder which it was. His intent was to walk with God, but he fell into sin, but he did not abandon God or calling out to the Lord.

Whether we take a grace view or an aspirational perfection view, we still need a heart that respects righteousness and desires to walk the path. It seems people are so scared of defining anything, and so beaten by right living, especially in marriages and family life, people do not want to sign up. How many here are in their first marriage, with kids, walking in the Lord and things are going ok? I am.

I think this speaks more about where you are coming from and not from what God wants.

You say quite clearly here in the bolded portion you can lose your salvation, based on your actions.

This is anti-biblical and anti-God.

It is GOD who saves us! It is God who imparts the gift of faith, leading to repentance and belief. It is not about our actions. If God is so weak, he cannot hold onto those he has given the gift of faith to - he is a pretty small God and not worthy of our praise!

But NO!! God is greater than these petty doctrines created by people who do not understand God's grace.

"Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” Hebrews 13:5.

So does God say "I only stay with the perfect or totally faithful ones?" No! He says he will never leave or forsake us.

If someone truly walks away from the living God, were they ever truly saved. John says no!

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." 1 John 2:19

We are not perfect in this life. God is working on us, sanctifying us. Because he is perfect, and he will keep his promises. It is not about our works or human effort, but the finished work of Jesus Christ - crucified and resurrected!

Next time you wish to quote spurious doctrine, back it up with the Bible.

 

[RickyZ]

I'm having a hard time with this and I apologize. Are the 10 commandments just suggestions now, and when did that change?

They are laws for those with little to no faith. They are instructional history for those with faith.

The 10 commandments summarize the law. Jesus said He did not come to negate the law but to fulfill it. The translation is that we are to still accord ourselves with the 10 commandments, we just don't have to pay the penalty when we break them.