How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
1,115
24
38
It is good to be confident in one's doctrine.
It is also good to have strong personal convictions.
However, you are very rigid about what you have come to believe.
Some have rightly pointed out that the architect of your belief system is the SDA. I have no problem with that. (I'm sorry if I have gone too far with this statement).
I love the SDA, as much as I love any other denomination.


A person who believes that he of she is infallible, would be open to change.

Are you open to changing your beliefs, if proved wrong?
Let me tell you that I am open to change, since my allegiance is to Jesus first (rather than to any church or denomination).

..and I'm glad we consider ourselves infallible. By that we give Christ due credit.

CORRECTION:
**
A person who believes that he of she is NOT** infallible, would be open to change.
..and I'm glad we DON'T **consider ourselves infallible. By that we give Christ due credit
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
1,115
24
38


i don't think Robert came here to be anyone's enemy, right? but as our brother.
I do consider him to be my brother, since he has such great faith in Jesus, and I do not doubt his motives.

 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
1,115
24
38
Yes, but I've learned if you preach the gospel you'll make some enemies....
I hope you do not consider me among your enemies. Although I refute you so often and pester you with my questions, I never think of you as my enemy.
 
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
7
0
What about a newborn baby? According to your logic, he or she is born slave to sin. Therefore that makes an infant a "sinner"(according to you), and therefore since the infant has a fallen nature, the fallen nature "disqualifies" the infant for heaven.

An infant is of course a sinner. What does Paul say? "There is none righteous, no, not even one." That's very to the point.

By "slave to sin" I mean slaves to self-love (selfishness). Babies are selfish. It's kind of cute when they are toddlers, but as they get older it's not so cute. They are also fairly harmless as infants too..

Let's turn to Ps 51:5 "Behold, I (David) was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me"

In other words David's mother passed on to David her bent-to-self (self-love or iniquity). Self-love is a condition, not an act. Because we love self we are therefore selfish. Selfishness produces bad behavior.

While infants are sinners they are not transgressors. Transgression means you know the law and you understand that according to the law you are sinning. Infants cannot be held accountable to God's law; hence they do not stand guilty before the law. They do, however, stand condemned because they share Adam's fallen life.


 
Last edited:
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
7
0
While infants are sinners they are not transgressors. Transgression means you know the law and you understand that according to the law you are sinning. Infants cannot be held accountable to God's law; hence they do not stand guilty before the law. They do, however, stand condemned because they share Adam's fallen life.
But now I have some good news about infants. Some of you will think it's heresy.

Well, I think infant baptism is heresy because it makes baptism the Savior, not Christ. Baptism is a symbol; it doesn't save. E.G., The thief on the cross didn't get baptisted, but Christ said he would be in heaven.

So the question is will infants, who die before the are able to place their faith in Christ, be in heaven?

Answer: Absolutely!!!! In fact ever infant that died prematurely (especially the aborted ones) will be in heaven.

Why? Because Christ, by His doing & dying, has legally reversed our condemnation in Adam.

I base it on the following:

Romans 5:13..."sin is not imputed when there is no law."

Romans 5:18 "So then as through one transgression (Adam's) there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness (Christ's) there resulted justification of life to all men"
 
Last edited:

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
1,115
24
38

An infant is of course a sinner. What does Paul say? "There is none righteous, no, not even one." That's very to the point.
There you go again...you continue to use just any verse that comes to your mind and that too out of context, to support your claims.

Please continue to read from verses 13-18 (below).
Do these verses sound like Paul was talking about infants??
Do the sinful deeds sound anything like some condition inherited from Adam by newborns?
To me the acts mentioned below sound like deliberate and willful sinful acts/ transgressions.


Their throat is a yawning grave; they use their tongues to deceive (to mislead and to deal treacherously). The venom of asps is beneath their lips.
[SUP]14[/SUP]Their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.[SUP]15[/SUP]Their feet are swift to shed blood.[SUP]16[/SUP]Destruction [as it dashes them to pieces] and misery mark their ways.[SUP]17[/SUP]And they have no experience of the way of peace [they know nothing about peace, for a peaceful way they do not even recognize].[SUP]18[/SUP]
There is no [reverential] fear of God before their eyes. (Romans 3:13-18)

Paul is talking about persons who are at the age of accountability and who willfully commit acts of sin.

THE CONTEXT: The Jews thought that they were superior to the Gentiles. Paul is reminding them that not one is better than the other. No Jew is better than a Gentile. All are sinners and there is non righteous.
In verse 21 Paul says that now, righteousness apart from the Law has been revealed through faith in Jesus. He further says that all (Jew and gentile) have fallen short and are justified freely and without bias. He he then goes on to say that Jesus was the mercy seat and propitiation that atoned for the sin of man.

Now, although these verses are not time bound and can be used in general, these are definitely not applicable to infants.

 
Last edited:

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
1,115
24
38


By "slave to sin" I mean slaves to self-love (selfishness). Babies are selfish. It's kind of cute when they are toddlers, but as they get older it's not so cute. They are also fairly harmless as infants too..
No doubt babies are selfish, but to be a "slave to sin" means to be mastered by sin.
Being born in the fallen nature of Adam and being slaves to sin are two entirely different aspects.

 
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
7
0
I have to disagree on part of this. You say "we are born without God's spirit." That is NOT TRUE. God CREATED us in HIS image, he literally breathed life into Adam and Eve, so obviously we ARE born with his spirit, since he is our creator. :)


Adam and Eve were created in God's image after His likeness. God is Spirit. Adam was made from the dust of the ground. Eve was made from Adam, hence the same material. SO there's a difference there.

Then how were they in God's image? They (Adam & Eve) perfectly reflected God's agape love. They were perfect....but, then they fell. No longer were they in God's image. It was after the fall that Adam had children. So no, we, as Adam's children are not in God's image.

Before the fall:

Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female, and He blessed them and named * them Man in the day when they were created.

After the fall:

3 When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth.

Seth was born in Adam's image, after the fall. No longer was mankind in the image of God.
 
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
7
0
No doubt babies are selfish, but to be a "slave to sin" means to be mastered by sin.
So babies can do good things without Christ? Talk about legalism....Christ emphatically states that "you can do nothing without Me". Babies do not have God's Spirit in him by birth. The new birth (i.e., to be born again) comes to those who accept the gospel.

Selfishness is iniquity. In modern language it is to be bent-to-self. Our bent is the reason we sin outwardly.
 
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
7
0
Second, your comment about our "fallen natures disqualifies us for heaven." Once again,that is NOT true. God MADE us sinful and imperfect for a reason.
I can't believe you stated such a heresy!!!! God didn't make us sinners. IF God created sin then we need to mad at Him, not Satan. Satan is the one who introduced self-love. He is the author of sin.


Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Ez 28:14-15
 
Last edited:

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
1,115
24
38


While infants are sinners they are not transgressors. Transgression means you know the law and you understand that according to the law you are sinning. Infants cannot be held accountable to God's law; hence they do not stand guilty before the law. They do, however, stand condemned because they share Adam's fallen life.


On one hand you say that babies do not stand guilty, and on the other hand you say they stand condemned.
Condemnation comes only to the guilty.
You cannot be guilty when you have not personally sinned, and you cannot be condemned if you are not guilty.
If man suffers from the fallen condition as a result of Adam's sin, it is not man's fault. Therefore man is not guilty, and will not be condemned for it.
 
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
7
0
Condemnation comes only to the guilty.
If you are riding with me, but unknown to you I am intoxicated, and I wreck and kill both of us you are not guilty of breaking the law (law's against drinking and driving).

But you are condemned because of me. My transgression caused your condemnation, yet you are NOT guilty.



 
Last edited:
B

BarlyGurl

Guest
NOOOOOOO.... 2 people are dead.... everybody DIES.... it is what happens after that...that the condemnation is determined... as in where you end up! You are misusing condemnation and the analogy falls flat.