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thebesttrees
Guest
I think this graph illustrates my view currently:
1. Why 457 BC as the data as there were more than one command to rebuild Jerusalem?
2. And who issued this command in 457 BC?
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1. Why 457 BC as the data as there were more than one command to rebuild Jerusalem?
2. And who issued this command in 457 BC?
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GaryA
Guest
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ApocalypseAngel
Guest
Hello Houly,
Where do you place the beginning and end of the seven weeks, of the seventy weeks?
Daniel was praying to God to ask when would Israel be restored. Well, to this day, 2015, Israel is not yet restored. When Jesus takes over as King and Ruler of the world "One who is anointed and a leader" , upon victory at our future Battle of Armageddon, Israel is restored. With Jesus, a descendant of king David, Ruling the world, Israel will be restored. Revelation, where Jesus takes over as King and Ruler of the world has yet to happen.
The beginning of the seven of seventy weeks, according to Gabriel, is at the first utterance that Israel will be restored. The first utterance that Israel will be restored is when father Jacob is passing the 'Blessing of Abraham' on to his grandson, Ephraim. Jacob lived about 1630 B.C. So if we go into Messianic Reign in 2015, This would put doomsday, the end of the seventy weeks, out to about 37,000 years from now. This is using the 1630 + 2015 = 3645 years as the seven of seventy weeks.
What do you think?
NAB2 GEN 48:17
When Joseph saw that his father had laid his right hand on Ephraim’s head, this seemed wrong to him; so he took hold of his father’s hand, to remove it from Ephraim’s head to Manasseh’s, saying, “That is not right, father; the other one is the first-born; lay your right hand on his head!” But his father resisted. “I know it, son,” he said, “I know. That one too shall become a tribe, and he too shall be great. Nevertheless, his younger brother shall surpass him, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations.” So when he blessed them that day and said, “By you shall the people of Israel pronounce blessings; may they say, ‘God make you like Ephraim and Manasseh,’” he placed Ephraim before Manasseh. Then Israel said to Joseph: “I am about to die. But God will be with you and will restore you to the land of your fathers.
NAB2 DAN 9:25
From the utterance of the word that Jerusalem was to be rebuilt Until one who is anointed and a leader, there shall be seven weeks. During sixty-two weeks it shall be rebuilt,
NAB2 REV 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have salvation and power come, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Anointed.
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ApocalypseAngel
Guest
Ok, I did the math. If we go into Messianic Reign, where Jesus comes to Rule the world, in 2015, this would put doomsday out to about the year 34820 A.D.. 37000 years would be the whole 70 weeks.
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Is
Guest
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Is
Guest
Grammatically speaking, all three words 'he' in Daniel 9:27 refer back to the word 'Messiah' in the previous verse. They are all three referring to Jesus.
Well, for one thing Jesus is referred to as "Messiah" in Daniel 9:26, not the "prince" of which "his people" would come.
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ApocalypseAngel
Guest
God was King over Israel from the Exodus till 587 B.C.. Because of the great multitude of Israel's sins, God relinquished His Kingship over Israel and put secular power, Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon and his world dominant secular power successors, as rulers over Israel. Daniels question to God is, when is this, secular power ruling over Israel, going to end? Israel, even to the present day, suffers greatly from dictators, kings and evil world rulers. Daniel wants to know when is Israel, once again, going to have God as their King and Ruler. Israel, and the world, will have God as their King once again. This just has not happened yet. When Jesus takes over as King and Ruler of the world, upon victory at our future Battle of Armageddon, Israel will be Restored and the 62 weeks of rebuilding begins. However, it will not be the blood descendants of Abraham who become the New Jerusalem, it is Christ's Church who will metamorphosis into Christ's Kingdom Come, aka the New Jerusalem, aka Zion, on earth.
Daniels dream of the destruction of secular power, by Jesus and His army, at our future Battle of Armageddon, is where Mt. Zion, the Restored Kingdom of Israel, will dominate. No longer will secular power be God's appointed ruler over Israel and the world, But Jesus will be God's appointed King and Ruler over Israel and the world.
The 'Satan' who is driven from heaven, by Michael the Archangel and Christ's forces, is symbolic for Jesus smashing secular power on earth at our future Battle of Armageddon. The reason 'Satan' is described as being in heaven is because at the fall of Israel in 587 B.C., God put Satan/secular power, as His chosen 'servant' to rule over Israel, because of their great sins. Satan is dethroned on earth, by God, to make way for the Coming of our great King, our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ to Rule the world. God Ruled over Israel from the Exodus, till the fall of Israel, with and through His prophets, priests and kings of Israel. So will Jesus Rule with and through His Church, under Messianic Reign.
The sixty three weeks that Israel is to be rebuilt will begin when Jesus Comes to Rule the world. The great mountain that rises up out of the ashes of the destruction of world dominant secular power, in Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the great statue, is Mt. Zion, the Restored Kingdom of Israel. Mt. Zion will be Christ's Church. It is Christ's Power which will dominate the world in post-Armageddon times. There will be peace and justice on earth. However, 'No rest for the wicked', saith the Lord.
On the 63 week 'Satan', which Satan is symbolic for man's evil human pride on earth, especially man's evil human pride in world dominant power, will be released from hell. Meaning, one of Christ's co-rulers on earth, an Apostolic Successor, will fall to the temptation of Satan. This will be the anti-Christ. This is when doomsday, the end of free willed man on earth, will come in a hurry.
[h=4]NAB DAN 2:31[/h]
Daniels dream of the destruction of secular power, by Jesus and His army, at our future Battle of Armageddon, is where Mt. Zion, the Restored Kingdom of Israel, will dominate. No longer will secular power be God's appointed ruler over Israel and the world, But Jesus will be God's appointed King and Ruler over Israel and the world.
The 'Satan' who is driven from heaven, by Michael the Archangel and Christ's forces, is symbolic for Jesus smashing secular power on earth at our future Battle of Armageddon. The reason 'Satan' is described as being in heaven is because at the fall of Israel in 587 B.C., God put Satan/secular power, as His chosen 'servant' to rule over Israel, because of their great sins. Satan is dethroned on earth, by God, to make way for the Coming of our great King, our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ to Rule the world. God Ruled over Israel from the Exodus, till the fall of Israel, with and through His prophets, priests and kings of Israel. So will Jesus Rule with and through His Church, under Messianic Reign.
The sixty three weeks that Israel is to be rebuilt will begin when Jesus Comes to Rule the world. The great mountain that rises up out of the ashes of the destruction of world dominant secular power, in Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the great statue, is Mt. Zion, the Restored Kingdom of Israel. Mt. Zion will be Christ's Church. It is Christ's Power which will dominate the world in post-Armageddon times. There will be peace and justice on earth. However, 'No rest for the wicked', saith the Lord.
On the 63 week 'Satan', which Satan is symbolic for man's evil human pride on earth, especially man's evil human pride in world dominant power, will be released from hell. Meaning, one of Christ's co-rulers on earth, an Apostolic Successor, will fall to the temptation of Satan. This will be the anti-Christ. This is when doomsday, the end of free willed man on earth, will come in a hurry.
[h=4]NAB DAN 2:31[/h]
“In your vision, O king, you saw a statue, very large and exceedingly bright, terrifying in appearance as it stood before you. The head of the statue was pure gold, its chest and arms were silver, its belly and thighs bronze, the legs iron, its feet partly iron and partly tile. While you looked at the statue, a stone which was hewn from a mountain without a hand being put to it, struck its iron and tile feet, breaking them in pieces. The iron, tile, bronze, silver, and gold all crumbled at once, fine as the chaff on the threshing floor in summer, and the wind blew them away without leaving a trace. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
[h=4]NAB LUK 20:17[/h]
[h=4]NAB3 LUK 21:24[/h]
[h=4]NAB LUK 20:17[/h]
'The stone which the builders rejected has become the keystone of the structure'? The man who falls on that stone will be smashed to pieces, It will make dust of anyone on whom it falls."
“This was the dream; the interpretation we shall also give in the king’s presence. You, O king, are the king of kings; to you the God of heaven has given dominion and strength, power and glory; men, wild beasts, and birds of the air, wherever they may dwell, he has handed over to you, making you ruler over them all; you are the head of gold. Another kingdom shall take your place, inferior to yours, then a third kingdom, of bronze, which shall rule over the whole earth. There shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron; it shall break in pieces and subdue all these others, just as iron breaks in pieces and crushes everything else. The feet and toes you saw, partly of potter’s tile and partly of iron, mean that it shall be a divided kingdom, but yet have some of the hardness of iron. As you saw the iron mixed with clay tile, and the toes partly iron and partly tile, the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. The iron mixed with clay tile means that they shall seal their alliances by intermarriage, but they shall not stay united, any more than iron mixes with clay. In the lifetime of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed or delivered up to another people; rather, it shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and put an end to them, and it shall stand forever. That is the meaning of the stone you saw hewn from the mountain without a hand being put to it, which broke in pieces the tile, iron, bronze, silver, and gold. The great God has revealed to the king what shall be in the future; this is exactly what you dreamed, and its meaning is sure.”[h=4]NAB3 LUK 21:24[/h]
They will fall by the edge of the sword and be taken as captives to all the Gentiles; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled
[h=4]NAB2 ACT 26:17[/h]I shall deliver you from this people and from the Gentiles to whom I send you, to open their eyes that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may obtain forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been consecrated by faith in me.’ [h=4]NAB 3 12:6[/h]
[h=4]NAB MAT 6:9 The Lord's Prayer[/h]Then war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels battled against the dragon. Although the dragon and his angels fought back, they were overpowered and lost their place in heaven. The huge dragon, the ancient serpent known as the devil or Satan, the seducer of the whole world, was driven out; he was hurled down to earth and his minions with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have salvation and power come, the reign of our God and the authority of his Anointed One.
"This is how you are to pray: 'Our Father in heaven hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done on earth as it is in heaven ...//... Subject us not to trial but
deliver us from the evil one.'
your kingdom come,
your will be done on earth as it is in heaven ...//... Subject us not to trial but
deliver us from the evil one.'
I personally believe there is a break....Daniel 12 gives exactly 1335 days left to deal with Israel during the great tribulation...subtract that from 2520 days (7 years × 360 day years) = 1185 which I believe is the time frame of the personal ministry of Jesus unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel...they rejected Jesus collectively and will have to endure the last 1335 days......
But years are not 360 days long. They lasted either twelve moon periods (quite a few days short of 360) or thirteen moon periods (quite a few days longer). Thus you cannot make exact calculations on the basis of a thirty day month. That is simply playing with figures.
Daniel's point was that not seventy years but seventy sevens lay ahead for God's people. Thus we would expect the seventy sevens to be continuous. Certainly Christianity was almost totally Jewish for a number of years after the crucifixion. Were those Jews not Israel? Jesus said that they were the true vine (John 15.1-6). It is purely artificial to suggest that Israel ceased in God's purposes at the crucifixion. Acts reveals He still had much directly to do with them. To make a gap at that point is simply manipulating the facts.
But Messiah is referred to as 'the anointed one, the prince' in verse 25. And He is shown as 'coming'. So who is 'the coming prince'? ANSWER. The Messiah.
It is significant that it is the PEOPLE of the coming prince who will destroy the city. Why? BECAUSE THE PRINCE WAS DEAD. And there is no doubt that the JEWS DID destroy the city. They did it by crucifying Jesus. And they did it in reality when the occasion arrived. Read Josephus whole account. As Josephus says, 'the sedition destroyed the city, the Romans destroyed the sedition'.
Ezra was not commanded to build the city. He was sent to take God's Law to the people. It was Nehemiah who was commanded to restore the city in 445 BC.
In fact I do not think that 'the going forth of the word to restore Jerusalem' refers to any man made decree. It refers to the going forth of God's word in 9.23 which refers to 538 BC.
Almost all ancient calendars went by a 360 day year..the merge of the lunar and solar years and when you do the math you will come up with a 360 day year....
The beast little horn is given 3.5 years, or 42 months or 1260 days...
The witnesses witness 3.5 years, 42 months or 1260 days....
The beast wears out the saints and makes war against them for 3.5 years, 42 months or 1260 days....
1260 ÷ 42 = 30 Day months
42 months ÷ 3.5 = 12 month years
360 day years × 3.5 years = 1260 days
My math is sound and is based upon both Daniel and Revelation and the time frames given!
your BASIC FOUNDATION is false. The 360 day year was a rough approximation. It cannot be used for exact measurements. It was not used in calendars. It is quite simply WRONG. A year was twelve moon periods. Moon periods were 28-29 days long. That is the ESTABLISHED FACT. You cannot ignore it unless you simply play with figures to suit yourself.
The figures you mention are all symbolic figures. And Daniel KNOWS NOTHING of a 1260 day period.!!!!!
The three and a half year period in Revelation is based on the only three and a half year period in the Bible, the time of Elijah!!
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Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV
What is difficult for me to grasp, is how many leave out much Scripture in the Book of Daniel that goes with those events, completely out of their determination of that Dan.9:27 verse.
The "vile person" of Dan.11 who places the abomination that maketh desolate is also the one who makes the "league" with a small group of men per that chapter, which directly links to who this "he" in Dan.9:27 is.
Then with the historical blueprint of Antiochus Epiphanes around 170 B.C. almost fulfilling Dan.11 to a tee, but Jesus warning about the "abomination of desolation" event even after that in His Olivet Discourse, with the Romans not accomplishing it, the temple having burned before they could get possession of it, and that temple still not having been rebuilt to our day, all that shows that "one week" is still not yet today, but is meant for the very end of this world.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV
What is difficult for me to grasp, is how many leave out much Scripture in the Book of Daniel that goes with those events, completely out of their determination of that Dan.9:27 verse.
The "vile person" of Dan.11 who places the abomination that maketh desolate is also the one who makes the "league" with a small group of men per that chapter, which directly links to who this "he" in Dan.9:27 is.
Then with the historical blueprint of Antiochus Epiphanes around 170 B.C. almost fulfilling Dan.11 to a tee, but Jesus warning about the "abomination of desolation" event even after that in His Olivet Discourse, with the Romans not accomplishing it, the temple having burned before they could get possession of it, and that temple still not having been rebuilt to our day, all that shows that "one week" is still not yet today, but is meant for the very end of this world.
Pal I just gave you two books which set forth that math at the end of the age..I could care less if you choose to ignore the facts!
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KennethC
Guest
I do not know why people still insist to argue this point when all we have to do is do a history study on the first 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy.
A history study that can easily be done will show those 69 weeks lasted exactly 483 years !!!
When we take this and divide 483 by 69 then you will see each week was 7 years, this means a prophetic week is 7 years in which the Jews have always taught this way.
The 7th week is then left unfilled and Jesus can not have fulfilled this as the scripture clearly says He was cut off (sacrificed) after the 69th week.
The reason that 1,290 days and 1,335 days are mentioned in Daniel 12:11-12 is because these extra days are allotted for Armageddon and God's wrath.
A history study that can easily be done will show those 69 weeks lasted exactly 483 years !!!
When we take this and divide 483 by 69 then you will see each week was 7 years, this means a prophetic week is 7 years in which the Jews have always taught this way.
The 7th week is then left unfilled and Jesus can not have fulfilled this as the scripture clearly says He was cut off (sacrificed) after the 69th week.
The reason that 1,290 days and 1,335 days are mentioned in Daniel 12:11-12 is because these extra days are allotted for Armageddon and God's wrath.
what is difficult for me to grasp is how people ignore the terms used in Scripture when they have a clear meaning. For example 'covenant' in Daniel is only used of God's covenant. Nagid (prince) is only used of Israelite princes.
The vile person 'makes a LEAGUE'. It is God and His representative who 'confirm God's covenant'. Covenant in Daniel always refers to God's covenant. Dan 11 does not directly link with the 'he' in 9.27. The Hebrew always looked for the antecedent of 'he' as referring to a previous subject in a sentence, or alternatively referred it to God. The antecedent is either 'the people' (singular in Hebrew) or 'the Messiah'. Or it could refer to God. And I repeat, it is only God and His representatives who 'confirm covenant', the covenant of God with His people..
But it was the people of the (dead) prince who destroyed the city and the sanctuary as you admit. Thus it was completely fulfilled. Why were the people made the subject and not the prince? Because the prince was DEAD. We know who the prince was from verse 25.
As long of course as you manipulate the facts to fit the theory. It cannot actually be certainly shown. Thus the many disagreements on the subject. We have no way for example of knowing on what date Christ died. We have no way of knowing how long the years were. It is all manipulation and surmise.
Once we've fiddled the figures, why not fiddle them even more? The Jews have never said that a prophetic week was seven years. And Daniel does not even refer to weeks. He refers to sevens (which replace years).
Funny, I thought He rose from the dead. I'm sure I heard that somewhere. So He could easily have confirmed covenant and done many other things
Unproven rubbish. It is certainly NOT what Daniel says. He was referring to the period of Antiochus Epiphanes.