How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

[Lenga]

But the law condemns sinners. It demands their death. Christ wasn't a sinner, so how could His death satisfy the broken law?

Exactly, the law demanded death and when Jesus took on our sin he had to die. He was forsaken so we would not have to be and he died in our place. The demands of the law were still fulfilled. Yes, he was blameless but in order to reconcile man to God, Jesus had to become the sacrificial lamb and the perfect sacrifice. He was not a sinner but he took on the sin so we might be reconnected to God.

If a child breaks something in a store, the parent will often take on the responsibility of apologising and paying off the damage because the child is not capable. We are not capable of our own salvation but Jesus justified us and we remain justified by faith through Christ.

 

[Roberth]

Paul is speaking to those who know the law.

The immediate context suggest the Jews during Paul's time. The Gentiles were ignorant here.

Today Gentiles are not as ignorant. You know the law. Most all denominations preach on the 10 commandment, right? You have heard of the 10 commandments? If not, maybe you should dust off your Bible and try reading it.

How do I know Paul has the 10 commandments in mind? Answer: Romans 7:7

"I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet."

What law commands us not to covet? Right, the moral law, the 10 commandments.

Now you know....

 

[Roberth]

My "old life" died.
But, what is the "old life?"

First, where did your "old life" die? Answer: "In Christ". Correct?

 

[Roberth]

Jesus Christ is... God, i.e, God The Son, Immanuel (God with us), which is how He could come in the flesh, have no sin....

If He assumed our flesh he assumed our Sarx, which means He assumed our fallen nature. That, as I already illustrated, didn't make Him a sinner.

1] It wasn't His nature, it was ours.

2] He never sinned when He was tempted.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Originally Posted by Roberth

SO you need me to help you? Can't you read? Trying read the context of Romans 7:1-7

Yes, I need you to help me, since I stand condemned by you.

Paul is speaking to those who know the law.
But I'm not a Jew, and I do not know the law.
(just like most people in the US.)

So, i repeat my 2 questions:
What is the "law?"
What is the "old life?"

If you have Christ there's no condemnation. So I believe you are a bit confused.

Please read the text of my message carefully.
Christ does not condemn me. Roberth does.
Roberth calls me confused.
Roberth calls me mad.
Robert says i am following another gospel.
Robert says my questions are in error.

Roberth calls everyone else "laymen."
Robert calls those who do not agree with him "heretics."

I called Roberth my "brother" because we have Christ in common.(check my previous post)

So please answer my questions if you do not mind (and take your time).
Meanwhile I am watching your video message by Jack Sequeira.

I would be happy to agree with you, if your answers are in line with scripture in keeping with the context.

 

[onlinebuddy]

First, where did your "old life" die? Answer: "In Christ". Correct?

Yes, in Christ (no doubt about it), and Christ died 2000 years ago(no doubt about it).
So you say that I must logically assume that my old self died 2000 years ago(when I wasn't even born)?

Does the time frame matter at all? What is important is that my old self died in Christ.
Does it matter if it died 2000 years ago or 2 years ago?

Now, what is my "old self?"
And what did Paul mean by the "law?"

 

[Lenga]

Yes, in Christ (no doubt about it), and Christ died 2000 years ago(no doubt about it).
So you say that I must logically assume that my old self died 2000 years ago(when I wasn't even born)?

Does the time frame matter at all? What is important is that my old self died in Christ.
Does it matter if it died 2000 years ago or 2 years ago?

Now, what is my "old self?"
And what did Paul mean by the "law?"

The law often refers to the decrees set out by God in the pentituke (the first 5 books of the bible) the old self refers to who you were before you knew Christ. Now that you are born again, you are a new creation living and pursuing a Godly life. I hope this helps .

 

[onlinebuddy]

The law often refers to the decrees set out by God in the pentituke (the first 5 books of the bible) the old self refers to who you were before you knew Christ. Now that you are born again, you are a new creation living and pursuing a Godly life. I hope this helps .

...yes, thanks. .....the Pentateuch or the "Torah" as known by the Jews.

I agree with you!

Let's ask Roberth if agrees with us.

 

[soloflight]

condemnation is in the law. the law defines sin in saying do not do this or that. the old life is as being in prison due to transgression, (or breaking) of the law. it is an inescapeable life sentence. as being on death row. the law will release its hold only when it is satisfied in the execution of the consequence of sin which is death. ezk 18:20. that is why i cannot 'pay the price' for you. once my sentence is carried out, there is nothing left. nothing. however Jesus never sined. so he had all his life still in him. no dept what so ever. so he is able to give to the satisfaction of the demands of the law which is everything. He gave all. paid the debt in my stead and in your stead. it is true that 'it' is all about Jesus. and he gave 'it' all up for us. He made it all about us. God died so we would be free of the grip of the law and live.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

You have been debating all this time about GOD broke his own Law.I know it's a discussion but I'm wondering why you would want to play the devils advocate since it is a Christian site.

 

[Roberth]

Originally Posted by Roberth

Christ does not condemn me. Roberth does.
Roberth calls me confused.
Roberth calls me mad.
Robert says i am following another gospel.
Robert says my questions are in error.

Roberth calls everyone else "laymen."
Robert calls those who do not agree with him "heretics."

First of all you've stretched the truth concerning your above statements. You've taken some of those things out of their context.

Condemnation would be me telling you that you aren't going to heaven. That's condemnation.

But, no more about this because what you are really after (and others too) is to talk about anything but the subject at hand, i.e., the true gospel.

 

[Roberth]

Yes, in Christ (no doubt about it), and Christ died 2000 years ago(no doubt about it). So you say that I must logically assume that my old self died 2000 years ago(when I wasn't even born)?

Now you're thinking...I like! I'll get back with you on the above.

 

[Roberth]

You have been debating all this time about GOD broke his own Law...

No, I'm saying He didn't break His law because we died to the law, legally, in Christ.

 

[Roberth]

...yes, thanks. .....the Pentateuch or the "Torah" as known by the Jews.

I agree with you!

Let's ask Roberth if agrees with us.

No, Robert doesn't agree because it's not true to the context. It's totally out of context and you know it. What you are doing is placing your preconceived ideas to the text when it clearly states otherwise.

Here's the immediate context:

Rom 7:4 "....you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. ....6 But now, by dying to what once bound us (the law), we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. 7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

What law commands "you shall not covet"?

 

[Roberth]

What law condemns?

2 Cor 3:7...."the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone"...verse 9: "the ministry that brought condemnation"

 

[KennethC]

What law condemns?

2 Cor 3:7...."the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone"...verse 9: "the ministry that brought condemnation"

Key word there "engraved", meaning the written form of it placed in ordinances, because breaking any one of them came with the price of being put to death !!!

 

[Roberth]

What law commands "you shall not covet"?

12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the landthe Lord your God is giving you.13 “You shall not murder. 14 “You shall not commit adultery. 15 “You shall not steal. 16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. 17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” (Ex 20:12-17) The Ten Commandments (the moral law)

 

[Roberth]

Key word there "engraved", meaning the written....

Meaning:

Deut 4:13 He declared to you his covenant,the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.

 

[gkroo]

1Jn_5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

We just do not know what the sin unto death is. We can guess.

 

[gkroo]

Yes, there is a death penalty and there is life without parole.