How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

[KennethC]

Meaning:

Deut 4:13 He declared to you his covenant,the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.

First
Commandment
Exodus 20:3;
Deuteronomy 5:7 Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8; Revelation 14:7


Second
Commandment
Exodus 20:4-6;
Deuteronomy 5:8-10 Acts 15:20; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-20; Ephesians 5:5


Third
Commandment
Exodus 20:7;
Deuteronomy 5:11 Matthew 5:33-37; 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7


Fourth
Commandment
Exodus 20:8-11;
Deuteronomy 5:12-15 Luke 4:16; 23:55-56; Acts 17:1-2; 18:4; Hebrews 4:9; 1 John 2:6


Fifth
Commandment
Exodus 20:12;
Deuteronomy 5:16 Matthew 15:4-9; 19:19; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29-30; Ephesians 6:1-3


Sixth
Commandment
Exodus 20:13;
Deuteronomy 5: 17 Matthew 5:21-22; 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29-30; 13:9


Seventh
Commandment
Exodus 20:14;
Deuteronomy 5:18 Matthew 5:27-28; 19:18; Mark 10:11-12, 19; Luke 16:18; 18:20; Romans 7:2-3; 13:9


Eighth
Commandment
Exodus 20:15;
Deuteronomy 5:19 Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 13:9; Ephesians 4:28; 1 Peter 4:15; Revelation 9:21


Ninth
Commandment
Exodus 20:16;
Deuteronomy 5:20 Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Acts 5:3-4; Romans 13:9; Ephesians 4:25


10th
Commandment
Exodus 20:17;
Deuteronomy 5:21 Luke 12:15; Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:3, 5

 

[KennethC]

1Jn_5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

We just do not know what the sin unto death is. We can guess.

This passage is speaking of repented and unrepented sins, as unrepented sins lead to death but repented of sins that a brother may still be struggling in will not. We are to pray for them to continue on their path and the Holy Spirit to help them overcome that sin/s.

 

[Roberth]

1Jn_5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

We just do not know what the sin unto death is. We can guess.

Off subject...

 

[onlinebuddy]

condemnation is in the law. the law defines sin in saying do not do this or that. the old life is as being in prison due to transgression, (or breaking) of the law. it is an inescapeable life sentence. as being on death row. the law will release its hold only when it is satisfied in the execution of the consequence of sin which is death. ezk 18:20. that is why i cannot 'pay the price' for you. once my sentence is carried out, there is nothing left. nothing. however Jesus never sined. so he had all his life still in him. no dept what so ever. so he is able to give to the satisfaction of the demands of the law which is everything. He gave all. paid the debt in my stead and in your stead. it is true that 'it' is all about Jesus. and he gave 'it' all up for us. He made it all about us. God died so we would be free of the grip of the law and live.

He gave all. paid the debt in my stead and in your stead.

Let's ask Roberth if he believes this.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Originally Posted by onlinebuddy

Originally Posted by Roberth

Christ does not condemn me. Roberth does.
Roberth calls me confused.
Roberth calls me mad.
Robert says i am following another gospel.
Robert says my questions are in error.

Roberth calls everyone else "laymen."
Robert calls those who do not agree with him "heretics."

First of all you've stretched the truth concerning your above statements. You've taken some of those things out of their context.

Condemnation would be me telling you that you aren't going to heaven. That's condemnation.

But, no more about this because what you are really after (and others too) is to talk about anything but the subject at hand, i.e., the true gospel.

Your words are all over the thread. Anyway, let us give you the benefit of the doubt and move on with this discussion.

 

[DP]

If He assumed our flesh he assumed our Sarx, which means He assumed our fallen nature. That, as I already illustrated, didn't make Him a sinner.

1] It wasn't His nature, it was ours.

2] He never sinned when He was tempted.

Jesus was not... just a flesh man only, just as we also are not just flesh only. We have a spirit inside our flesh too.

So do you think our spirit God also created us with is equal to The Spirit in Jesus Christ??? I assure you, when God came in the flesh as Jesus Christ, which is what His Name "Immanuel" from Isaiah means, He did not have the same kind of spirit that we were born with.

 

[onlinebuddy]

No, Robert doesn't agree because it's not true to the context. It's totally out of context and you know it. What you are doing is placing your preconceived ideas to the text when it clearly states otherwise.

Here's the immediate context:

Rom 7:4 "....you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. ....6 But now, by dying to what once bound us (the law), we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. 7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

What law commands "you shall not covet"?

Speaking about the context, whom do you think Paul is talking to when he says "you also died to the law" Jews, gentiles, or both?

 

[onlinebuddy]

12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the landthe Lord your God is giving you.13 “You shall not murder. 14 “You shall not commit adultery. 15 “You shall not steal. 16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. 17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” (Ex 20:12-17) The Ten Commandments (the moral law)

So according to you, Paul is talking about the moral law.

 

[senzi]

God can justify the ungodly through faith in christ. Then that faith brings obedience (rom1:5)
The law condemns anyone who does not perfe tly keep it, for the pass mark if you like to be acceptable under it is 100 percent perfect obedience, no slup ups

 

[Roberth]

We have a spirit inside our flesh too.

Everything was touched by the fall. Their are some who teach that the body is evil and the spirit good. They say the body dies because it is sinful, but the spirit returns to God because it is naturally holy. This teaching denies to total depravity of mankind. Furthermore if the spirit is good & righteousness, it doesn't need the righteousness of Christ.

 

[Roberth]

So according to you, Paul is talking about the moral law.

Not according me - according to Paul.

 

[Roberth]

Speaking about the context, whom do you think Paul is talking to when he says "you also died to the law" Jews, gentiles, or both?

I don't think I know, I know I know! Answer: Both Jews and Gentiles. Why? Romans 3:9 "We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one"

Some teach that in the OT the Jews were saved by law, but in the NT the Gentiles are saved by grace and that the law was abolished. This teaching is utterly false. We are all saved by faith in Christ Jesus and nothing else. If the Jew rejects Christ, he will perish. If the Gentile rejects Christ, he too will perish. Why? To reject Christ is to remain under law.

 

[Roberth]

So you say that I must logically assume that my old self died 2000 years ago (when I wasn't even born)?

The "in Christ" idea is based on the biblical idea of solidarity. Therefore, if we are to come to grips with this phrase we must first understand what the Bible has to say about solidarity.

Two New Testament texts help us understand Biblical solidarity. The first is Romans 9:12, a quotation taken from Genesis 25:23 — the twins, Esau and Jacob, represent two nations, not individuals. The second is Hebrews 7:7-l — Levi paid tithe to Melchizedek in Abraham, since he was “in the loins” of his great grandfather Abraham when he paid tithe to Melchizedek.

 

[Roberth]

Two New Testament texts help us understand Biblical solidarity. The first is Romans 9:12, a quotation taken from Genesis 25:23 — the twins, Esau and Jacob, represent two nations, not individuals. The second is Hebrews 7:7-l — Levi paid tithe to Melchizedek in Abraham, since he was “in the loins” of his great grandfather Abraham when he paid tithe to Melchizedek.

Okay, let's turn to Ps 139:13-16

For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb. 14 I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well.

David states that God "wove" him in his mother's womb. IF we stop here and go no further, this creates a problem. Why?

Turn to Ps 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

If God created David in his mother's womb then God is the author of sin because David was sinful at conception. That would make God responsible for sin and not the devil. What's the solution? The context! We must read on:

15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; 16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.

Notice the phrase "When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth".

The question is when did God create David?

Answer: "In the depths of the earth"

Now go back to the creation account:

Gen 2:7 "God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

So God created David when He formed Adam from the dust of the ground (the earth).

 

[soloflight]

where does it say that He does?

 

[Magenta]

... Furthermore if the spirit is good & righteousness, it doesn't need the righteousness of Christ.

Jesus said, "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

 

[onlinebuddy]

Originally Posted by onlinebuddy

So according to you, Paul is talking about the moral law.

Not according me - according to Paul.

So we understand that when Paul is talking about the law written on the tablets, he is talking about the moral law. Right?

Which law is he referring to in the b/m verse?:
Rom 7:2?For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him.
Was that written on the stone tablets too?

More importantly, in Galatians 5, what law is Paul talking about?
Was the requirement for circumcision also part of the moral law?
Were the Jews trying to impose moral law or the ceremonial law on the Gentiles?

 

[onlinebuddy]

Originally Posted by onlinebuddy

Speaking about the context, whom do you think Paul is talking to when he says "you also died to the law" Jews, gentiles, or both?

I don't think I know, I know I know! Answer: Both Jews and Gentiles. Why? Romans 3:9 "We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one"

Some teach that in the OT the Jews were saved by law, but in the NT the Gentiles are saved by grace and that the law was abolished. This teaching is utterly false. We are all saved by faith in Christ Jesus and nothing else. If the Jew rejects Christ, he will perish. If the Gentile rejects Christ, he too will perish. Why? To reject Christ is to remain under law.

Being under sin and being the Law are two different aspects(although there is a little overlap there).
Yes, neither the Jew nor the Gentiles is righteous. Both are stuck in the same muck: sin!

I know, I know I know! Answer: Both Jews and Gentiles

We were talking about Romans 7.
for I am speaking to those who know the law[Romans 7:1]
Q. Who are the people who knew the law? Jews or Gentiles?
Ans: The Jews.
Q. Who are the ones who were attempting to keep the law?
Ans: The Jews

Some teach that in the OT the Jews were saved by law,

No one on this thread is saying that the Jews were saved by the law.

 

[Roberth]

Jesus said, "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

What is "the spirit"?

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin (the flesh/sarx) which is in my members.

The spirit is what Paul terms "the inward man", which he equates to "the law of my mind". He tells us that this desire to do good from "the inward man" is overridden by "the law of sin" or our sinful nature.

Let's back up so we can see this a bit better:

Rom 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find."

So with the will (the law of my mind) Paul tries to do good, but the flesh overrides his will. What is this "inward man"?

Eph 3:14 For this cause I (Paul) bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named , 16 That he would grant you (the believers in Ephesus), according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inward man17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts (minds) by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love....

So the inward men is the converted mind where the Spirit of God dwells. He dwells in our spirit. Or spirit is a place in our mind or heart where Christ dwells. The reason we have desires to do good is because Christ's Spirit dwells in our "inner man" - that is, our converted heart.

Hence, the only thing that's good in us doesn't belong to us. It is Christ through the Spirit of God.

 

[Roberth]

Which law is he referring to in the b/m verse?: Rom 7:2?For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him.

Jesus expanded on the law adultery: "I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Now look at Romans 7:3 "So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress."