Catholic Heresy (for the record)
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Sir, I do not have to prove to you that bowing down to a ceramic, golden or any other image is idolatry. Anyone on this site who is in Christ will validate that. Furthermore, this is not my opinion but is the word of God. And yes, I can say that without absolute error, that if anyone is bowing down to an object, you are committing idolatry, whether it be statues of Mary, Jesus, Eucharist's, Buddha, Vishnu, etc., etc., it is idolatry. Anything that is before God in your heart is idolatry.
Belief does saves.
Luke 8:12 - ..believe and be saved.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 6:47 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
Acts 10:43 - ..whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.
Acts 13:39 - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
*Also see Acts 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..
The word believe Greek - "pisteuo" can describe "mere mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance in Christ for salvation," as in Acts 16:31. In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. I believe "mental assent" that George Washington existed and I also believe in the historical facts about George Washington, but I am not trusting in George Washington to save my soul. See the difference? Saving belief is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving belief trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ as the all-sufficient means of our salvation.
That is mere "mental assent belief" as well. Atheists, along with the demons are not trusting in Christ for salvation.
The Greek words for faith "pistis" and believe "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. If you believe in Him and remission of sins, then you have faith in Him and are saved (Acts 10:43; Ephesians 2:8). It doesn't take an expert to understand this.
I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic church, so my assessment is from experience.
Luke 8:12 - ..believe and be saved.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 6:47 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
Acts 10:43 - ..whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.
Acts 13:39 - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
*Also see Acts 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..
The word believe Greek - "pisteuo" can describe "mere mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance in Christ for salvation," as in Acts 16:31. In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. I believe "mental assent" that George Washington existed and I also believe in the historical facts about George Washington, but I am not trusting in George Washington to save my soul. See the difference? Saving belief is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving belief trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ as the all-sufficient means of our salvation.
That is mere "mental assent belief" as well. Atheists, along with the demons are not trusting in Christ for salvation.
The Greek words for faith "pistis" and believe "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. If you believe in Him and remission of sins, then you have faith in Him and are saved (Acts 10:43; Ephesians 2:8). It doesn't take an expert to understand this.
I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic church, so my assessment is from experience.
Z
Yes, it is sad that very many Catholics as well as Protestants don't understand Catholicism. I learned from a thirst for the lord and how it was in the first church. This lead me back to the Catholic Church . I always use the word Faith over belief because I feel it's a stronger word for a relationship with Jesus Christ. Therefore my analogy with demons
Hmmmmm, no, you don't have to prove a thing to me, but you may have to explain to God why your interpretation is in error. For if you were as learned in the Catholc faith as you claim you are, you would know that The Catholic Church does not believe any statue or image has any power in and of itself. And you'd know that the beauty of statues and icons move us to the contemplation of the Word of God as he is himself or as he works in his saints. And, according to Scripture, as well as the testimony of the centuries, God even uses them at times to impart blessings (e.g., healings) according to his providential plan, as in, Ex. 25:18–19; Num. 21:8–9; 1 Kgs. 6:23, 27, 29, 31, 32; and 1 Kgs. 9:3).Now in the latter, don't you think God knew what King Solomon had done? It becomes apparent, given the above evidence, that a strictly literal interpretation of Exodus 20:2–5 is erroneous. Otherwise, we would have to conclude that God prohibits something in Exodus 20 that he commands elsewhere.
Why would God use these images of serpents, angels, palm trees, and open flowers? Why didn’t he heal the people directly rather than use a "graven image"? Why didn’t he command Moses and Solomon to build an ark and a temple void of any images at all?
First, God knows what his own commandments mean. He never condemned the use of statues absolutely. Second, God created man as a being who is essentially spiritual and physical. In order to draw us to himself, God uses both spiritual and physical means. He will use statues, the temple, or even creation itself to guide us to our heavenly home.
Psalm 19:1 tells us: "The heavens are telling the glory of God; and the firmament proclaims his handiwork." Romans 1:20 says: "Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made."
Is kissing or kneeling down before a statue the same as adoring it? Not necessarily. Both Peter in Acts 10 and the angel in Revelation 19 rebuked Cornelius and John, respectively, specifically for adoring them as if each was adoring the Lord. The problem was not with the bowing; it was with the adoration. Bowing does not necessarily entail adoration. For example, Jacob bowed to the ground on his knees seven times to his elder brother Esau (Gen. 33:3), Bathsheba bowed to her husband David (1 Kgs. 1:16), and Solomon bowed to his mother Bathsheba (1 Kgs. 2:19). In fact, in Revelation 3:9, John records the words of Jesus: "Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and learn that I have loved you.
Here, John uses the same verb for "bow down" (proskuneo) that he used in Revelation 19:10 for "adoration" when he acknowledged his own error in adoring the angel. Would anyone dare say that Jesus would make someone commit idolatry? Of course not! I argue that in a sense, Jesus is saying to those who do not know him, "You can either bow down to my people (respect and honor them) now in this life, or I will compel you to do so in the next. It's your choice." But however you interpret Rev. 3:9, it is probably the clearest example in the New Testament of why bowing does not equal adoring (or worshipping).
Bottom line is that we Catholics take very seriously the biblical injunctions to praise and honor great members of God’s family (see, for example, Ps. 45:17; Luke 1:48; 1 Thess. 5:12–13; 1 Tim. 5:17; 1 Pet. 5:5–6, etc.). And we do not change our beliefs because either the world, or certain people who name the name of Christ may walk away from them.
We also believe, as Scripture makes very clear, that death does not separate us from the love of Christ (Rom. 8:38), or from his body, which is the Church (Col. 1:24). Our "elders in heaven" ( Rev. 5:8) should be honored as much or even more than our greatest members on earth. So having statues honoring God or great saints brings to mind the God we adore and the saints we love and respect. This is a no-brainder for Catholics. To us, having statues is just as natural as—you guessed it—having pictures in our wallets to remind us of the ones we love here on earth. But reminding ourselves of loved ones is a far cry from idolatry.
Pax Christi
p.s. calling me sir is a bit to formal, don't ya think. We are close to the same age. But thanks anyway.
Why would God use these images of serpents, angels, palm trees, and open flowers? Why didn’t he heal the people directly rather than use a "graven image"? Why didn’t he command Moses and Solomon to build an ark and a temple void of any images at all?
First, God knows what his own commandments mean. He never condemned the use of statues absolutely. Second, God created man as a being who is essentially spiritual and physical. In order to draw us to himself, God uses both spiritual and physical means. He will use statues, the temple, or even creation itself to guide us to our heavenly home.
Psalm 19:1 tells us: "The heavens are telling the glory of God; and the firmament proclaims his handiwork." Romans 1:20 says: "Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made."
Is kissing or kneeling down before a statue the same as adoring it? Not necessarily. Both Peter in Acts 10 and the angel in Revelation 19 rebuked Cornelius and John, respectively, specifically for adoring them as if each was adoring the Lord. The problem was not with the bowing; it was with the adoration. Bowing does not necessarily entail adoration. For example, Jacob bowed to the ground on his knees seven times to his elder brother Esau (Gen. 33:3), Bathsheba bowed to her husband David (1 Kgs. 1:16), and Solomon bowed to his mother Bathsheba (1 Kgs. 2:19). In fact, in Revelation 3:9, John records the words of Jesus: "Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and learn that I have loved you.
Here, John uses the same verb for "bow down" (proskuneo) that he used in Revelation 19:10 for "adoration" when he acknowledged his own error in adoring the angel. Would anyone dare say that Jesus would make someone commit idolatry? Of course not! I argue that in a sense, Jesus is saying to those who do not know him, "You can either bow down to my people (respect and honor them) now in this life, or I will compel you to do so in the next. It's your choice." But however you interpret Rev. 3:9, it is probably the clearest example in the New Testament of why bowing does not equal adoring (or worshipping).
Bottom line is that we Catholics take very seriously the biblical injunctions to praise and honor great members of God’s family (see, for example, Ps. 45:17; Luke 1:48; 1 Thess. 5:12–13; 1 Tim. 5:17; 1 Pet. 5:5–6, etc.). And we do not change our beliefs because either the world, or certain people who name the name of Christ may walk away from them.
We also believe, as Scripture makes very clear, that death does not separate us from the love of Christ (Rom. 8:38), or from his body, which is the Church (Col. 1:24). Our "elders in heaven" ( Rev. 5:8) should be honored as much or even more than our greatest members on earth. So having statues honoring God or great saints brings to mind the God we adore and the saints we love and respect. This is a no-brainder for Catholics. To us, having statues is just as natural as—you guessed it—having pictures in our wallets to remind us of the ones we love here on earth. But reminding ourselves of loved ones is a far cry from idolatry.
Pax Christi
p.s. calling me sir is a bit to formal, don't ya think. We are close to the same age. But thanks anyway.
what is your interpretation ; THOU SHALL NOT BOW DOWN ?
For you it mean please bow down ?
that why Pope bow down in front of statue?
Remember when the Lord to Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of knowledge, Devil help them to interpreted to eat. It is opposite interpreted and they die.
The way your church interpreted not to bow is mean yes to bow. it is exactly what devil teach to Adam and Eve and lead you to hell.
What make you think not to bow mean yes to bow? please let me know what is in your mind.
Well yes, ThomistColin, but in this passage, Jn. 6.55, John uses ἀληθής and in Jn. 15.1 the derivative ἀληθινὴ. In the verse you quote, "true" (in your translation "indeed") has the meaning "conforming to reality". In Jn. 15.1, where Jesus describes himself as the true vine, the meaning is "genuine" ("true", e.g., as God is true [Jn. 7.28]).
To be consistent, you would have to understand that Jesus is a real vine in the same sense as you are saying he is real food and drink.
To be consistent, you would have to understand that Jesus is a real vine in the same sense as you are saying he is real food and drink.
L
It was a major shock to me as a practicing Catholic when I began reading the Bible for myself. I searched for purgatory and limbo and confession and confirmation, for priests and nuns.,sacraments, Mass, the Pope, etc.. I could not find them. Couldn't find worship of Mary or even prayers to her. It was a slow process yet shocking and it grew momentum the more searching was done.
How could alllll those people I grew up with and respected and learned from all have been mistaken? Many groups of people are in a religion that their families and friends followed for years that has given much comfort and solidarity all their lives. To come to a place where they have to make a decision to not rest on those once secure things is a major shock to the person's system of life. Their parents and relatives who they were once totally connected to and comforted by will feel rejected and insulted and think you've gone from the faith and become a heathen.
It takes a revelation from the HolySpirit to be able to withstand people's influences in our lives that we were once comforted by. Ephesians 2:8-9 was a life changing verse. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works that no one should boast.
I remember the first time I went into a non Catholic church and they had no statues of Mary, Jesus or the stations of the cross. No robed priest no mass. I felt like a traitor and had much shame. Sitting in the church listening to the pastor all I could think of was getting out of there before someone saw my tears flowing. And before God struck me down. And yet I was compelled to keep on this path of finding out the truth.
Great testimony! I can completely relate and had very much the same experience that you had with reading the Bible for myself and becoming enlightened to the truth that the Roman Catholic church was not teaching and to their unbiblical practices. Ephesians 2:8,9 was a life changing verse for me as well!
God bless you!
God bless you!
Z
Can you show where in the bible is an altar call? How about the sinners prayer? How about services on Sunday and Wednesday nights? Where is that in the bible? Where does the bible say rock concerts are worship?Where does the bible say shake a preachers hand and you are saved?Is communion just for whenever the preacher decides to have it? Where is that in the bible? I see a naive Catholic being hoodwinked
zzz98, you are Worshiping Mary every time you pray the "Hail Mary" prayer.
In the Lord's pray it starts by saying "Our Father". Which is addressing God the Father. In the "Hail Mary", it starts out by saying "Hail Mary" which is addressing Mary.
So yes, you Catholics are praying to Mary every time you pray the "Hail Mary" prayer which is Worshiping Mary as your God. Now if Mary were alive and you were saying this to Mary it would not be Worshiping Mary because she would be alive and standing before you. Since Mary is dead and in the grave, this now makes it Worshiping Mary.
I ask you this zzz98, where in the Scriptures is the Prayer "Hail Mary" in its entirety?
The Lord's Prayer is all together in Matthew 6 verses 9-13. I know for a fact the "Hail Mary" prayer has been taken out of many different verses and put together by the Catholic Church. Any fool can lift words out of verses to make the Scriptures say anything they want and this is what the Catholics have done with the "Hail Mary" Prayer.
Also we are told not to repeat Prayers over and over and over again like you Catholics do.
Matthew 6:7
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
The Rosary IS vain repetitions!
God hates it when we say the same prayers over and over again!
In the Lord's pray it starts by saying "Our Father". Which is addressing God the Father. In the "Hail Mary", it starts out by saying "Hail Mary" which is addressing Mary.
So yes, you Catholics are praying to Mary every time you pray the "Hail Mary" prayer which is Worshiping Mary as your God. Now if Mary were alive and you were saying this to Mary it would not be Worshiping Mary because she would be alive and standing before you. Since Mary is dead and in the grave, this now makes it Worshiping Mary.
I ask you this zzz98, where in the Scriptures is the Prayer "Hail Mary" in its entirety?
The Lord's Prayer is all together in Matthew 6 verses 9-13. I know for a fact the "Hail Mary" prayer has been taken out of many different verses and put together by the Catholic Church. Any fool can lift words out of verses to make the Scriptures say anything they want and this is what the Catholics have done with the "Hail Mary" Prayer.
Also we are told not to repeat Prayers over and over and over again like you Catholics do.
Matthew 6:7
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
The Rosary IS vain repetitions!
God hates it when we say the same prayers over and over again!
Tell me zzz98, where in the Bible does God say we are to hide out Priests who molest children? I know for a fact Pope Francis see's nothing wrong with hiding these Priests from the Authorities.
Every time you point your finger at us, you have three fingers pointing back at you. Clean up your church first before you complain about us True Christians.
Every time you point your finger at us, you have three fingers pointing back at you. Clean up your church first before you complain about us True Christians.