Dualism

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Feb 3, 2010
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#1
The idea that we are at war with the powers of darkness, as if they are somehow a match for God is not Christian. It is Gnostic.

The Gnostic Bible, Nag Hammadi, which was discovered in the Egyptian desert in the last century was written and compiled by heretical groups within the Christian Church (sort of like people who subscribe to the Prosperity Gospel; or the JW's in the 19th century, which originally started out as just a group of Christians who liked to study the Bible together.) during first few centuries of Christianity. The gnostic believers were called to fight against an equally powerful, god (The god of the Old Testament) whom they believed to be an evil force - like, but not the same as Satan. They also believed that only secret knowledge that Christ provided to a select few - themselves - is what gave them the power to escape their evil bodies and return to God.

Dualism is an idea originally found outside of Christianity from a Persian religion called Zoroastrianism. Yet, it was adopted by many of the early heresies found in the early church like Monism, Donism, Montanism, ect, ect, ect......it is not a Christian idea at all; however, it taught within our churches today. The book that was popular years ago 'This Present Darkness' is dualistic - not Christian. The idea that the flesh is evil and the spirit is good is also a false dichotomy - not Christian. The idea that we are called to fight against Satan and his angels, as if they had a chance against the Almighty God is not Christian and not Biblical. Folks that believe God created a force called 'evil' are buying into dualistic teaching.

Instead of dualism, Christianity teaches that Satan is merely part of creation gone bad - someone who decided to choose not to follow God. He is merely an after thought now that Jesus died for us. Christ reconciled the relationship between humanity and Himself on the Cross - we simply need to acknowledge this and allow Him to love through us. Yes, we can still chose to make less good choices, but our only real concern is to love God and serve and love our neighbors, rather than beating demons out from behind every bush. Christianity teaches that evil is the lack of good - like cold is the lack of heat - not a force. God is Almighty - He has no rivals - He is omnipotent. We are a liberated, free people because of Him. The roaring lion is toothless. When Paul talks about warring against the flesh - he is not calling our bodies evil - we were created good; he is talking about worldliness our tendency to misuse our bodies. CS Lewis talks about the importance of realizing our place in Creation - we are not merely animals - and if we start believing that we are we are at risk of allowing our instincts (not merely our bodies) to be our moral guide - leading us into an animal existence.

So, I believe dualistic teaching within Christianity needs to be acknowledged and confronted - it is insidious and rampant. For me, this foreign idea taught often mistakenly taught within our doctrine does more damage than any demonic force.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#2
Ther are many kinds of dualism and none of them reflect the truth of Christianity.
1. That there are two powerful beings, on good and the other evil, both with the potential for omnipotence. What "side" you are on may determine who wins.
2. That there are two forces, one called evil and on called good. All creativity and life depends upon the interaction of these two forces.
3. That God is polar, having both evil and good attributes.
These are just three of many examples.
 
Feb 3, 2010
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#3
Ther are many kinds of dualism and none of them reflect the truth of Christianity.
1. That there are two powerful beings, on good and the other evil, both with the potential for omnipotence. What "side" you are on may determine who wins.
2. That there are two forces, one called evil and on called good. All creativity and life depends upon the interaction of these two forces.
3. That God is polar, having both evil and good attributes.
These are just three of many examples.
Thank you - great addition.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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#4
So having flesh that we war against.. doesn't make it a different nature to the Holy Spirit dwelling inside us?

I am with you on not looking for demons in everything.. but it is a plain fact that we are imperfect and battle against our fleshly desires.. if that isn't a different nature to walking with the Holy Spirit I don't know what is.

Just because receive eternal life and are indwelled by the Holy Spirit.. doesn't mean we can't revert to old ways or struggle with past sins. This is what is meant by a dual nature.

The old self is dead when we receive Christ.. but doesn't mean we don't revert back to it sometimes. It is dead to the Holy Spirit but temptation can lead us to make it alive in our fleshly nature.

Our bodies aren't resurrected yet.. we are still in imperfect, human, fleshly bodies marred by sin.

So I mean.. I agree with most of your post.. but a don't agree that we don't have two natures. Scripture is plainly clear that we do battle with temptation... even as christians.. yet still have an eternal spirit that has been indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

I can't be indwelled by Satan or a demon.. because they cannot co-habitat with the Holy Spirit.. seeing as He is God and far more powerful than anything they can do.. but that doesn't mean I will never return to old ways.

So dual natures just means.. a fleshly nature and walking with God nature.
 
Feb 3, 2010
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#5
So having flesh that we war against.. doesn't make it a different nature to the Holy Spirit dwelling inside us?

I am with you on not looking for demons in everything.. but it is a plain fact that we are imperfect and battle against our fleshly desires.. if that isn't a different nature to walking with the Holy Spirit I don't know what is.

Just because receive eternal life and are indwelled by the Holy Spirit.. doesn't mean we can't revert to old ways or struggle with past sins. This is what is meant by a dual nature.

The old self is dead when we receive Christ.. but doesn't mean we don't revert back to it sometimes. It is dead to the Holy Spirit but temptation can lead us to make it alive in our fleshly nature.

Our bodies aren't resurrected yet.. we are still in imperfect, human, fleshly bodies marred by sin.

So I mean.. I agree with most of your post.. but a don't agree that we don't have two natures. Scripture is plainly clear that we do battle with temptation... even as christians.. yet still have an eternal spirit that has been indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

I can't be indwelled by Satan or a demon.. because they cannot co-habitat with the Holy Spirit.. seeing as He is God and far more powerful than anything they can do.. but that doesn't mean I will never return to old ways.

So dual natures just means.. a fleshly nature and walking with God nature.
Your nature has been redeemed - not replaced or added to. Yes, you still have bad habits - a tendency to do what is comfortable, which Paul calls the Old Man, but you no longer have to act that way. I know this probably sounds like hairsplitting, but it has huge ramifications.

I heard a great definition of Repent, the other day; "Change the direction you are looking for your happiness". Sin used to be where we turned to be fulfilled - now we are called to turn to Christ - the fountain that quiches thirst for good.
 
Jan 22, 2010
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#6
I'd agree, except for your point that it's not biblical to say G-d created evil - Isaiah 45:7 disagrees.
 
May 21, 2009
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#7
The fact that the bible warns us that we are in a war of things which people don't normally see(demons) is very real warning.
The fact that lots of Christians have their heads in the sand instead of paying attention to the fact that we are warned the devil wants KILL< STEAL<and DESTROY us is a very real warning.
 
Jan 22, 2010
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#8
Now that I disagree with. What people don't realize is that Satan actually has no real power unless you give it to him.
 
Feb 3, 2010
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#9
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

Well, I see your point, but I am not sure what to make of it.

The word Sophie - the Greek God of wisdom is used in the Bible, as well.......could it be possible that a bit of dualism crept in?

Could it be that the writer of Isaiah is recording his own interpretation? Doubtful.....

Could it be incomplete? God does do all things.......evil is the absence of good or misuse of creation.

I will have to read more about it
 
Feb 3, 2010
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#10
The fact that the bible warns us that we are in a war of things which people don't normally see(demons) is very real warning.
The fact that lots of Christians have their heads in the sand instead of paying attention to the fact that we are warned the devil wants KILL< STEAL<and DESTROY us is a very real warning.
What is Satan going to do? He is defeated. He was never a threat to God, anyway. He was more like a fly in the Garden than a snake. Adam and Eve simply chose to allow him to influence them - A&E caused the Fall - not the snake.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#11
What is Satan going to do? He is defeated. He was never a threat to God, anyway. He was more like a fly in the Garden than a snake. Adam and Eve simply chose to allow him to influence them - A&E caused the Fall - not the snake.
Be careful regarding this. Remember what we are told in Jude, that even the archangel did not dare to be capricious in his dealings with Satan. Jesus would not of warned us regarding Satan if the danger wasn't real. I do not advocate living in fear, but ignoring Satan or dismissing him as inconsequential is not the way.
 
Feb 3, 2010
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#12
Be careful regarding this. Remember what we are told in Jude, that even the archangel did not dare to be capricious in his dealings with Satan. Jesus would not of warned us regarding Satan if the danger wasn't real. I do not advocate living in fear, but ignoring Satan or dismissing him as inconsequential is not the way.
Yeah, you are right about this.
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#13
The idea that we are at war with the powers of darkness, as if they are somehow a match for God is not Christian. It is Gnostic.

The Gnostic Bible, Nag Hammadi, which was discovered in the Egyptian desert in the last century was written and compiled by heretical groups within the Christian Church (sort of like people who subscribe to the Prosperity Gospel; or the JW's in the 19th century, which originally started out as just a group of Christians who liked to study the Bible together.) during first few centuries of Christianity. The gnostic believers were called to fight against an equally powerful, god (The god of the Old Testament) whom they believed to be an evil force - like, but not the same as Satan. They also believed that only secret knowledge that Christ provided to a select few - themselves - is what gave them the power to escape their evil bodies and return to God.

Dualism is an idea originally found outside of Christianity from a Persian religion called Zoroastrianism. Yet, it was adopted by many of the early heresies found in the early church like Monism, Donism, Montanism, ect, ect, ect......it is not a Christian idea at all; however, it taught within our churches today. The book that was popular years ago 'This Present Darkness' is dualistic - not Christian. The idea that the flesh is evil and the spirit is good is also a false dichotomy - not Christian. The idea that we are called to fight against Satan and his angels, as if they had a chance against the Almighty God is not Christian and not Biblical. Folks that believe God created a force called 'evil' are buying into dualistic teaching.

Instead of dualism, Christianity teaches that Satan is merely part of creation gone bad - someone who decided to choose not to follow God. He is merely an after thought now that Jesus died for us. Christ reconciled the relationship between humanity and Himself on the Cross - we simply need to acknowledge this and allow Him to love through us. Yes, we can still chose to make less good choices, but our only real concern is to love God and serve and love our neighbors, rather than beating demons out from behind every bush. Christianity teaches that evil is the lack of good - like cold is the lack of heat - not a force. God is Almighty - He has no rivals - He is omnipotent. We are a liberated, free people because of Him. The roaring lion is toothless. When Paul talks about warring against the flesh - he is not calling our bodies evil - we were created good; he is talking about worldliness our tendency to misuse our bodies. CS Lewis talks about the importance of realizing our place in Creation - we are not merely animals - and if we start believing that we are we are at risk of allowing our instincts (not merely our bodies) to be our moral guide - leading us into an animal existence.

So, I believe dualistic teaching within Christianity needs to be acknowledged and confronted - it is insidious and rampant. For me, this foreign idea taught often mistakenly taught within our doctrine does more damage than any demonic force.

The idea that we are at war with the powers of darkness, as if they are somehow a match for God is not Christian. It is Gnostic.
Jas 4:7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

1pe 5:8Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

to resist/rebel against something that is trying to devour/destory can and on the most part does lead to war. we are not saying that he is a worthy opponent to God But satan has deceived himself and he thinks he is, so to just give in to the opposing force is wrong according to the Holy Word in James 4:7 so I think for doctrine is wrong as well. for we know that greater is He that is in us , than he that is in the world but satan does not know this.

Jude 1:9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
 
Feb 3, 2010
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#14
Pastor Keith

I am not suggesting that we continue our old way of acting. We are to throw off the old man, as Paul tells us to do. We are no longer slaves to sin - we can now, because of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross, choose the good.

However, interpreting Paul's use of the word flesh is troublesome because if interpreted incorrectly, it makes it sound like we are supposed to have a dualistic relationship with our bodies - as if our bodies were created evil and are beyond redemption. Instead, we were created good - Adam and Eve taught us how to sin and our natures were changed - we always chose the lesser good. Even though Christians have been redeemed, we still know how to misuse His creation by choosing the lesser good, however His sanctification in our lives allows us to look past our own needs, and consider other people's needs.

I am really starting to think that before Christ, everyone was hopelessly narcissistic - life was about personal satisfaction only. Jesus had to die for us to realize that our neighbors existed, had needs, and was loved by God. One thing that is sure about narcissism is that it is impossible for a person who has it to recognize it in themselves. Narcissistic personality disorder is truly the hardest thing to treat in therapy - personally, I think it takes God's intervention to manage it effectively. The troubling news is that the consumerism of the Western world is breeding narcissism like crazy.
 
Jan 22, 2010
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#15
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

Well, I see your point, but I am not sure what to make of it.

The word Sophie - the Greek God of wisdom is used in the Bible, as well.......could it be possible that a bit of dualism crept in?

Could it be that the writer of Isaiah is recording his own interpretation? Doubtful.....

Could it be incomplete? God does do all things.......evil is the absence of good or misuse of creation.

I will have to read more about it
Well, I consider Isaiah inspired AND a prophet, and the whole point of a prophet is that they speak for G-d and not themselves, so I think it's more than just his interpretation :p

Besides, nothing exists without G-d having first created it. To imply that anything can exist without G-d or without being controlled by G-d is to imply weakness or a flaw in the sovereignty of G-d.

At least, that's my take on it. But I'm always open to hearing another view :) This isn't about being right or wrong, it's about learning.
 
Feb 3, 2010
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#16
Besides, nothing exists without G-d having first created it.
Indeed, however, sin is the misuse of created things. Humans have created a new way to interact with God's creation and laws - the loophole :)

To imply that anything can exist without G-d or without being controlled by G-d is to imply weakness or a flaw in the sovereignty of G-d.
I am starting to think the concept of control is part of human understanding; it is our desire and attempt to be sovereign. Human control is a complete illusion. Only God knows what real control is because he is the only one who has it. To claim that God is in control is really meaningless because we do not know what it is; all we have experienced from humanity is an abuse of control.
 
Jan 22, 2010
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#17
Indeed, however, sin is the misuse of created things. Humans have created a new way to interact with God's creation and laws - the loophole :)
Hm...but then, is there more to evil than sin, or are we to conclude that the only evil is sin?

I am starting to think the concept of control is part of human understanding; it is our desire and attempt to be sovereign. Human control is a complete illusion. Only God knows what real control is because he is the only one who has it. To claim that God is in control is really meaningless because we do not know what it is; all we have experienced from humanity is an abuse of control.
That's...a very interesting way of looking at it. I've never heard it put this way before. I'll have to look into it. Thanks for giving me something new to think about :)
 
Feb 3, 2010
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#18
Hm...but then, is there more to evil than sin, or are we to conclude that the only evil is sin?



That's...a very interesting way of looking at it. I've never heard it put this way before. I'll have to look into it. Thanks for giving me something new to think about :)
I think sin is a personal or corporate contribution to evil; like a drink is to drunkenness.

Yeah - I am still thinking a lot about the verse you posted from Isaiah :)
 
Jan 22, 2010
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#19
I think sin is a personal or corporate contribution to evil; like a drink is to drunkenness.

Yeah - I am still thinking a lot about the verse you posted from Isaiah :)
Precisely. So is it not possible for G-d to have created evil, as Isaiah seems pretty clearly to say, but we make it worse and more prevalent through our sin?

If there's anything I'm knowledgable about, it's the Tanakh (read: Old Testament) :p
 
Feb 3, 2010
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#20
Precisely. So is it not possible for G-d to have created evil, as Isaiah seems pretty clearly to say, but we make it worse and more prevalent through our sin?

If there's anything I'm knowledgable about, it's the Tanakh (read: Old Testament) :p
I think you are right!