The Charismatic movement?

[notuptome]

Of course ...and the rest of the New Testament as evidence of signs and the Power of the Holy Spirit...what do you reject parts of the bible?

So you believe in taking up deadly serpents? Drinking deadly poisons?

The long ending of Mark is thought by bible scholars to be added by a scribe and not in the earliest manuscripts. Where it is in harmony with other passes of scripture it is fine but where it deviates it is to be taken with great care.

Like Jesus told satan you are not to tempt the Lord your God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[popeye]

So you believe in taking up deadly serpents? Drinking deadly poisons?

The long ending of Mark is thought by bible scholars to be added by a scribe and not in the earliest manuscripts. Where it is in harmony with other passes of scripture it is fine but where it deviates it is to be taken with great care.

Like Jesus told satan you are not to tempt the Lord your God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The word and the spirit combined is the NTpattern.

Taking one or the other is to walk a hobbled walk.

The 2combined is power. The whole of the book of acts testifies to this truth.

 

[Mitspa]

So you believe in taking up deadly serpents? Drinking deadly poisons?

The long ending of Mark is thought by bible scholars to be added by a scribe and not in the earliest manuscripts. Where it is in harmony with other passes of scripture it is fine but where it deviates it is to be taken with great care.

Like Jesus told satan you are not to tempt the Lord your God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I believe Paul did this very thing...and know personally a missionary friend bitten by a deadly serpent that was not harmed... Its rumored John was made to drink poison and it did not harm him... this passage is found quoted as scripture as early as the 2nd century (before any manuscript you might be referring to)..and much like all truth must be understand in context of the whole counsel of God. Yes I believe God protects those who really believes and these passages are clearly biblical truth...no debate about it in my mind.

 

[RickyZ]

Mark 11:3

Truly I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them.

Matthew 12:21

Jesus replied, "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done.

Originally Posted by notuptome :
You are not going to move mountains with your faith.
Roger

*******

So you believe in taking up deadly serpents? Drinking deadly poisons?

Roger

Mark 16:8 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

*******

I'm seeing a very disturbing pattern in your beliefs, Rog.

 

[Angela53510]

Poor choice on my part, I grabbed healer because it had already been tossed out. Replace that with 'prophecy' and 'prophet' for a more accurate rendering.

Sorry, "office of prophet or prophecy" are not in my Bible. In fact, the only reference to office besides some past tense references to the office of priest in the Old Testament in Hebrews is the following.

"The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task." 1 Tim. 3:1

One of my big objections to the whole charismatic movement is exactly this - extending the Biblical text and making things seem like they are Scriptural, when they are not.

The "overseer" is a leadership position. True, the overseer needs certain gifts to serve in his office. But it is never designated as healing or prophecy, or even administration, for that matter!

 

[notuptome]

Mark 11:3

Truly I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them.

Matthew 12:21

Jesus replied, "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done.

Originally Posted by notuptome :
You are not going to move mountains with your faith.
Roger

*******



Mark 16:8 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

*******

I'm seeing a very disturbing pattern in your beliefs, Rog.

I'm waiting. Have you amassed enough faith to equal a grain of mustard seed?

Foolish talk.

In my weakness is the strength of God perfected.

The reference is Mark 16:18

I see a very cavalier disrespect for the word of God. Likely a big part of your doctrinal error.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

I believe Paul did this very thing...and know personally a missionary friend bitten by a deadly serpent that was not harmed... Its rumored John was made to drink poison and it did not harm him... this passage is found quoted as scripture as early as the 2nd century (before any manuscript you might be referring to)..and much like all truth must be understand in context of the whole counsel of God. Yes I believe God protects those who really believes and these passages are clearly biblical truth...no debate about it in my mind.

See now you are attempting to rationalize a capricious position.

Paul's experience with the deadly viper is way different than the clown who picks up snakes in the church and tempts God. Also the guy who drinks deadly poisons to demonstrate his spirituality is nothing like what you offer about someone being forced to drink and God intervening. Could say the same thing about God protecting the OT saints including Daniel in the lions den.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

The word and the spirit combined is the NTpattern.

Taking one or the other is to walk a hobbled walk.

The 2combined is power. The whole of the book of acts testifies to this truth.

What are you attempting to communicate? Sound doctrine is not cloaked in gibberish.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RickyZ]

I'm waiting. Have you amassed enough faith to equal a grain of mustard seed?

I see a very cavalier disrespect for the word of God. Likely a big part of your doctrinal error.

Roger

You've heard reports from me of what mustard seed faith can do.

And there's no more cavalier disrespect for the word of God than to directly contradict and dismiss it.

For sure that is a huge part of your doctrinal error.

Again, listen to yourself Rog:

******
Mark 11:3

Truly I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them.

Matthew 12:21

Jesus replied, "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done.

Originally Posted by notuptome :
You are not going to move mountains with your faith.
Roger

*******

Originally Posted by notuptome
So you believe in taking up deadly serpents? Drinking deadly poisons?

Roger

Mark 16:8 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

*******

What is more disrespectful to God than to DIRECTLY DENY HIS WORD???

 

[DP]

DP, the cloven tongues, according to Acts 2:3, were tongues of fire that appeared above people.

We don't find teaching about tongues in the early church (and today) here, but in 1 Corinthians 12-14. Paul wrote that he didn't want the church to be misinformed about this matter and provided teaching on it. Acts relates what happened at Pentecost (historical narrative) whereas the 1 Corinthians passage is didactic.

How the true cloven tongue came upon the Apostles was a sign for them. The Scripture is not specific that the people present saw it come upon the Apostles.

Acts 2:3-4
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
KJV


The speakers there were Christ's Apostles. The "other tongues" was about other languages, which means the cloven (divided, going out in many directions) tongue they spoke was understood by all present that were listening, even in their own dialects of their language of birth.

I sincerely suggest you go back into God's Word and study the matter as it is actually written, and taking it back to the manuscript level also.

In Act 2, there is no such phrase as "unknown tongue" written there. Only the words for languages is there, even the word for dialect, which means the slang one speaks from a certain region of a language (like English compared between America and Britain).

Acts 2:8-11
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue (dialektos), wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
KJV



In 1 Cor.14, the phrase "unknown tongue" is a mistranslation by the KJV translators. The word "unknown" is NOT in the manuscripts. They added the word "unknown". What is there, is the same Greek meaning as per the Acts 2 example, glossa, which is about known languages of the world that people speak.

I'm surprised that very little has been said about the one tongue that all nations once spoke prior to the tower of Babel event. That is what The Holy Spirit was manifesting on that day. Per Zech.3:9, God revealed He will return to all peoples this one language that all used to speak, so that we all may call upon Him to serve Him with one consent.

Therefore, if for example a preacher that speaks only English goes to a foreign nation, to a congregation that does not speak or understand English, and that one preaches The Gospel, and if those foreign peoples understand in their own languages, even the dialects of their languages, then THAT... is an example of the cloven tongue that the Apostles spoke on Pentecost. I have had witnesses of this very thing happening with missionaries in nations outside the West. So like Apostle Paul said, the cloven tongue is a sign for the UNBELIEVER, not the believer (1 Cor.14:22).

 

[notuptome]

You've heard reports from me of what mustard seed faith can do.

And there's no more cavalier disrespect for the word of God than to directly contradict and dismiss it.

For sure that is a huge part of your doctrinal error.

Again, listen to yourself Rog:

******
Mark 11:3

Truly I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them.

Matthew 12:21

Jesus replied, "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done.

Originally Posted by notuptome :
You are not going to move mountains with your faith.
Roger

*******

Originally Posted by notuptome
So you believe in taking up deadly serpents? Drinking deadly poisons?

Roger

Mark 16:8 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

*******

What is more disrespectful to God than to DIRECTLY DENY HIS WORD???

Your cavalier attitude toward the word of God would be first on my list.

You still have the reference in Mark incorrect. You are just like the sons of Sceva.

Acts 19:13 ¶ Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus;

You seek to operate in the strength of your faith. You need to learn to operate in the strength of the faith of Jesus Christ. Want to increase your faith? Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. This is the faith, the faith of Jesus Christ that saves us. This is the faith that allowed men to be put to the flame or torn in pieces all the while glorifying God.

If you are going to move a mountain then it will be by the faith of Christ and not your own.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Mitspa]

See now you are attempting to rationalize a capricious position.

Paul's experience with the deadly viper is way different than the clown who picks up snakes in the church and tempts God. Also the guy who drinks deadly poisons to demonstrate his spirituality is nothing like what you offer about someone being forced to drink and God intervening. Could say the same thing about God protecting the OT saints including Daniel in the lions den.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I didn't defend that I defended the truth of scripture.... you see how dishonest you are in trying to attack biblical truth?

You clearly are even willing to attack the scriptures themselves to promote your anti-Christian agenda.

 

[Mitspa]

Your cavalier attitude toward the word of God would be first on my list.

You still have the reference in Mark incorrect. You are just like the sons of Sceva.

Acts 19:13 ¶ Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus;

You seek to operate in the strength of your faith. You need to learn to operate in the strength of the faith of Jesus Christ. Want to increase your faith? Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. This is the faith, the faith of Jesus Christ that saves us. This is the faith that allowed men to be put to the flame or torn in pieces all the while glorifying God.

If you are going to move a mountain then it will be by the faith of Christ and not your own.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

On this very page you tried to deny parts of Gods word... I doubt anyone should accept you as a defender of God Word.

 

[Magenta]

A small amount of faith moved the mountain of my disbelief...

 

[Cee]

Hello!

You said there was no church history that supported healing. I showed you ONE link that has several references of it. I'm not trying to prove the charismatic teachings of healing, prophesy, etc. Because that's already been done in the Scriptures.

1. There is no Scripture that says gifts are not for today, but there is continual Scriptures that say they are.
2. Despise not prophesy
3. I wish all spoke in tongues
4. Unknown to man, but known to God
5. They shall do the works I do and greater
6. They shall lay hands on the believer and they will recover
7. There is no office of healing, but there are "gifts to the church". These "offices" are for equipping people into the fullness of Christ in them. This is found in Eph 4.
8. If you study church history you'll find many of the churches that deny the Spirit's influence today was actually formed by one of the moves of God.
9. Modern day pharisees deny the Spirit and don't even realize it. I have shown you that antichrist is anti anointing. This was the basis of gnostic thinking.
10. The truth my friend is that if you don't have the Spirit of God breathing life on His Word it won't make much sense. Then you will need to look towards traditions in order to translate it.
11. Jesus told the disciples to freely give what they had been given. They didn't have a gospel of salvation or Scripture to give. They had the Spirit of God. Read John 16! It is to our advantage He left so we could have the Spirit of God in us! I weep in my heart when i see so much blatant disregard for Him! What do you think it means to QUENCH the Spirit?
12. Manifestations of the Spirit are not supposed to make sense to your mind. Thats why He's referred to as NEW WINE. People do crazy things. It's offensive isn't it. Doesn't Scripture tell you that He will confound people? So because God doesn't fit in people's box of what He will do they say it's not Him. That's exactly what the Pharisees did in Jesus time.
13. The purpose of Christ was to destroy the works of darkness. That's a fact. Scripture says it: 1 John 3:8 But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil.

What do you think the works of the devil are? We see it in His life! He destroyed sickness. He healed all who were sick! And now as He was sent so are we! He gave you His Spirit, His Name, His Mind, His Word! See a pattern? You are the BODY of Christ! He is continuing His ministry in you!

Today people do not believe! You tell them fear is of the devil and they say oh no I have a chemical imbalance or whatever. If you pray for depression, it's a medical condition, etc. etc. Come on man! You think that it was a demon in Jesus time, but today it's just a chemical imbalance? But people don't believe. Why do you think Jesus said when He returns will He find faith on the Earth? And then when people try to encourage them to BELIEVE the WORD OF GOD they say oh it's not for today. Is it Christ who lives in you or not? And if He does why do you think He confirmed His Word with signs and wonders then, but not today? The Word of God is not Scripture! It's the Rhema word of the Living God through you! Scripture itself refers to itself as Scriptures! And even SCRIPTURE says those who are sons of God follow the Spirit of God!

What do you think the Spirit of God is doing???

And finally in regards to your question why don't all get healed if it's God's will here's SCRIPTURE...

Matt 17:14
14And when they came to the crowd, a man came up to him and, kneeling before him, 15said, “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic and he suffers terribly. For often he falls into the fire, and often into the water. 16And I brought him to your disciples, and they could not heal him.” 17And Jesus answered, “O faithless and twisted generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him here to me.” 18And Jesus rebuked the demon,[SUP]b[/SUP] and it[SUP]c[/SUP] came out of him, and the boy was healed instantly.[SUP]d[/SUP] 19Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?” 20He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”[SUP]eI'

m not going to explain this entire Scripture to you, but I will show you the main parts. Jesus disciples prayed for someone and they weren't healed. The person comes to Jesus and says your disciples couldn't heal him! Jesus gets MAD! That shows it WAS THE WILL OF GOD for him to be healed and the disciples couldn't do it. Because Jesus only DOES the WILL OF GOD! He is perfect theology! And He healed all! So why didn't they get healed? Well the disciples asked that same question and Jesus replied it was because of THEIR faith. That's Scripture. Which answers your question why not everyone gets healed. Because we are still learning who Christ is in us, His goodness and kindness, and getting our minds renewed to what He is doing. And it doesn't help when people tell believers that they shouldn't believe.

C.
[/SUP]

Dear Cee, well, i have read the link which you gave and found special for the time of reformation not really a proof that the charismatic teachings of Heailng, speaking in tounges ore prophecie are a teached in all the denominations which founded in those days: Mennonites; Calvinists, Lutheren (I came from a lutheren background before Christ found me), Baptist; Bretheren and so on. Why then the Lord should not reveal such an important thing to the common church? Instead we find these teachings in sects like new apostolic church (Irving) ore other groups.
The teaching of what we call pentecostal ore charismaric movemenet startet in 1901 in Topeka, kansas and in 1905/6 in Azusa Street LA and spread to the world. When it came to germany first at all lot of the common denomiations leaders saw it could come from God.
But then they saw all the events: shaking, falling backward;moving and noising like animals and statet its a spirit from down (Satan) and even Leaders which first convinced its from God step back and left the pentecostal comunities. If the penecostal movement in those days comes from God, then why he could not convinced the established denominations? It came to an splitting into the christianhood.

You mentioned the Purpose of Jesus. Read John 20, 30 and 31! Was this not his purpose! To proof that he is the Christ! He did Signs! And fulfilled what the Prophets of the OT told about the Messiah!
All the people which Jesus and the Apostels healed had to die one day. And I suppose trough another deseas. If would be his purpose that wehave no sickness, than he failed! But this was not his Purpose and is not today. I working in hospital and seeing sick people every day. rare of them will be healed. The most have to take medicine livelong so that the can manage whith the sickness.
Sorry, today claim people to have the gift of healing. But they cant say it works all time. What is that for a proof? Do not all of we as children of god have the privilige to pray for a beloved person who is sick to the father and ask him for healing?
Sometimes he does and sometimes not. What is the reason for that? Do we have sin? Do we have not faith enough? Has the sick person not faith enough? What for a pressure! We have to live with sickness and weakness and getting older. Till we are in heaven with our Lord! And still we should trust in our heavenly father, even we are sick!
What say Jesus to Thomas in John 20,29? Thomas, because you have seen me, you have believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.




I was 20 years involved in mission ministrie in India. The Indians where I worked togehter were no charismatics. But they saw and gave witness from the Things what the Lord did. The Lord healed a sick Hindu and the whole family turned to Jesus. Simply Believers ore the churchmembers prayed and the Lord answered the prayer.
Of course the Lord heales extraordinary today special in such fields were the enemy is present. Of course we can not work without the holy spirit is leading and giftet us for our task.

Today special in our western countrys we christians are not satisfyed with only trusting and obeying the Lord: We want events, feelings, touching the Lord, having something special. But what is when the feelings are gone? Is then also our faith gone? Renember what Jesus said to Thomas!

The charismatic movement leeds away from the truth: We should trust, obeying and fearing the Lord!

 

[RickyZ]

Paul's experience with the deadly viper is way different than the clown who picks up snakes in the church and tempts God.
Roger

I'm trying not to pick on you anymore Roger, and in that spirit let me agree with you on this.

You're right those idiots in the church where they tempt God are asking for trouble, both here and in the future. They're really mocking God and they will be called to account for it.

But that doesn't mean somebody today couldn't have a similar experience to Paul's.

 

[kohelet]

What are you attempting to communicate? Sound doctrine is not cloaked in gibberish.

​Roger, is anyone saying it is?

 

[wolfwint]

Hello!

You said there was no church history that supported healing. I showed you ONE link that has several references of it. I'm not trying to prove the charismatic teachings of healing, prophesy, etc. Because that's already been done in the Scriptures.

1. There is no Scripture that says gifts are not for today, but there is continual Scriptures that say they are.
2. Despise not prophesy
3. I wish all spoke in tongues
4. Unknown to man, but known to God
5. They shall do the works I do and greater
6. They shall lay hands on the believer and they will recover
7. There is no office of healing, but there are "gifts to the church". These "offices" are for equipping people into the fullness of Christ in them. This is found in Eph 4.
8. If you study church history you'll find many of the churches that deny the Spirit's influence today was actually formed by one of the moves of God.
9. Modern day pharisees deny the Spirit and don't even realize it. I have shown you that antichrist is anti anointing. This was the basis of gnostic thinking.
10. The truth my friend is that if you don't have the Spirit of God breathing life on His Word it won't make much sense. Then you will need to look towards traditions in order to translate it.
11. Jesus told the disciples to freely give what they had been given. They didn't have a gospel of salvation or Scripture to give. They had the Spirit of God. Read John 16! It is to our advantage He left so we could have the Spirit of God in us! I weep in my heart when i see so much blatant disregard for Him! What do you think it means to QUENCH the Spirit?
12. Manifestations of the Spirit are not supposed to make sense to your mind. Thats why He's referred to as NEW WINE. People do crazy things. It's offensive isn't it. Doesn't Scripture tell you that He will confound people? So because God doesn't fit in people's box of what He will do they say it's not Him. That's exactly what the Pharisees did in Jesus time.
13. The purpose of Christ was to destroy the works of darkness. That's a fact. Scripture says it: 1 John 3:8 But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil.

What do you think the works of the devil are? We see it in His life! He destroyed sickness. He healed all who were sick! And now as He was sent so are we! He gave you His Spirit, His Name, His Mind, His Word! See a pattern? You are the BODY of Christ! He is continuing His ministry in you!

Today people do not believe! You tell them fear is of the devil and they say oh no I have a chemical imbalance or whatever. If you pray for depression, it's a medical condition, etc. etc. Come on man! You think that it was a demon in Jesus time, but today it's just a chemical imbalance? But people don't believe. Why do you think Jesus said when He returns will He find faith on the Earth? And then when people try to encourage them to BELIEVE the WORD OF GOD they say oh it's not for today. Is it Christ who lives in you or not? And if He does why do you think He confirmed His Word with signs and wonders then, but not today? The Word of God is not Scripture! It's the Rhema word of the Living God through you! Scripture itself refers to itself as Scriptures! And even SCRIPTURE says those who are sons of God follow the Spirit of God!

What do you think the Spirit of God is doing???

And finally in regards to your question why don't all get healed if it's God's will here's SCRIPTURE...

Matt 17:14
14And when they came to the crowd, a man came up to him and, kneeling before him, 15said, “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic and he suffers terribly. For often he falls into the fire, and often into the water. 16And I brought him to your disciples, and they could not heal him.” 17And Jesus answered, “O faithless and twisted generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him here to me.” 18And Jesus rebuked the demon,[SUP]b[/SUP] and it[SUP]c[/SUP] came out of him, and the boy was healed instantly.[SUP]d[/SUP] 19Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?” 20He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”[SUP]eI'

m not going to explain this entire Scripture to you, but I will show you the main parts. Jesus disciples prayed for someone and they weren't healed. The person comes to Jesus and says your disciples couldn't heal him! Jesus gets MAD! That shows it WAS THE WILL OF GOD for him to be healed and the disciples couldn't do it. Because Jesus only DOES the WILL OF GOD! He is perfect theology! And He healed all! So why didn't they get healed? Well the disciples asked that same question and Jesus replied it was because of THEIR faith. That's Scripture. Which answers your question why not everyone gets healed. Because we are still learning who Christ is in us, His goodness and kindness, and getting our minds renewed to what He is doing. And it doesn't help when people tell believers that they shouldn't believe.

C.
[/SUP]

Yes, thats rigth you gave me a Link and I went trough: f.e. the reformation time: There are mentioned 3 points: 1. Martin Luther: when he wrote a letter to sick friends: The adwise which he gave in this letter reinds me to that what wefound in James 5, 14. And this is according my understanding how sick people in the churches should handle. They should go to thldest of the church and they will pray. sad thing is, mostly this is not practiesd, even not today.
2. Valentine Greatlakes: He believed that diseases were caused by demons. Where in the bible we find that diseases are generally caused by demons?
3. the Quakers: Wher in the bible we find that people are shakend from the Holy Spirit?
thiese 3 mentionings are no proove that the healing of people (which has nothing to do with cast out demons) was common in the church, special not in all the reformatic churches (Calvinism; Lutherism, Mennonites, Baptists, Brethteren) And those reformatic churches has been the only alternative to the catolic churches. That means then, all this reformation churches had not the right teachings about the Holy Spirit.
And then around 1905 it appears the pentecostal movement, from which all pentecostal and charismatic today are come from (including what is called 2 and 3. wave) and statet this is the second pentecost. Where in bible we find a coming from a 2. pentecost?

 

[Mitspa]

Yes, thats rigth you gave me a Link and I went trough: f.e. the reformation time: There are mentioned 3 points: 1. Martin Luther: when he wrote a letter to sick friends: The adwise which he gave in this letter reinds me to that what wefound in James 5, 14. And this is according my understanding how sick people in the churches should handle. They should go to thldest of the church and they will pray. sad thing is, mostly this is not practiesd, even not today.
2. Valentine Greatlakes: He believed that diseases were caused by demons. Where in the bible we find that diseases are generally caused by demons?
3. the Quakers: Wher in the bible we find that people are shakend from the Holy Spirit?
thiese 3 mentionings are no proove that the healing of people (which has nothing to do with cast out demons) was common in the church, special not in all the reformatic churches (Calvinism; Lutherism, Mennonites, Baptists, Brethteren) And those reformatic churches has been the only alternative to the catolic churches. That means then, all this reformation churches had not the right teachings about the Holy Spirit.
And then around 1905 it appears the pentecostal movement, from which all pentecostal and charismatic today are come from (including what is called 2 and 3. wave) and statet this is the second pentecost. Where in bible we find a coming from a 2. pentecost?

Don't need the bible to reapprove the Holy Spirit ..the bible makes clear that the Holy Spirit never changes...Christ never changes and the gospel never changes.. Men try to change these things and then get confused when they cant figure out Gods Spirit.

 

[Cee]

Plenty of Scripture link demons to disease. The one I posted for instance.

As far as "shaking" look up "trembling" in Scripture.

At least we agree the sick should go to the church, but that Scripture is really written to "elders" not organization, but mature believers in the faith who understand who they are in Christ.

Every single period in church history has signs and wonders in it. I know plenty more resources, but when someone answers a long post I write and doesn't comment on the points I write and ignores the points that I state. I bow out of conversations for those who are seriously wanting to find the truth. I have plenty of more Scripture and resources to share on this topic as this isn't theory to me, I pray for people every single day.

I consider healing the sick a command from the Lord. And I want Him to get everything He paid for. Deut lists sickness as a curse, but Scripture says Jesus became a curse for us, so the curse no longer applies to us.

Consider this: Jesus is perfect theology. He is the invisible made visible. If the Father wanted people sick, why would the Son of God heal them? A kingdom divided against itself can not stand. Why did Jesus get mad when the disciples couldn't heal? Why did Jesus never say its the Fathers will you be sick and He is using this to teach you something, but so many do today? Why did Paul tell believers the reason they were sick and even sleeping is because they didn't discern the blood and body of Christ? Why did James tell us IF not when someone gets sick that they are to be prayed for and the prayer will heal them? Why do people think they can tell the Spirit He is no longer allowed to give His gifts? Why do people think they can sit on the Internet and tell ministers who God has anointed that they are frauds? It's ridiculous. Stop straining out gnats and swallowing camels instead.

C.