The Charismatic movement?

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kohelet

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2012
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In 1 Cor.14, the phrase "unknown tongue" is a mistranslation by the KJV translators. The word "unknown" is NOT in the manuscripts. They added the word "unknown". What is there, is the same Greek meaning as per the Acts 2 example, glossa, which is about known languages of the world that people speak.
Sorry, DP, I found the answer (haven't been following the thread closely at all).

Paul is speaking of private tongues, which he is all for, and tongues in church, which he's also keen to have happen provided they're accompanied with interpretation.

Do we agree so far?

 

DP

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Sep 27, 2015
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Actually, the cloven (or divided, or distributed) tongues of fire weren't languages, but not surprisingly, fire, διαμεριζόμεναι γλῶσσαι ὡσεὶ πυρὸς (= divided tongues like fire). What point are you making though? Can we get to the nub of the thing? Are you saying that tongues are never anything else but world languages?
What does that Greek word dialektos (dialect) as used in Acts 2:6 mean?

Per Acts 2:11, exactly what did that multitude hear the Apostles speak?
 

DP

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Sep 27, 2015
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Sorry, DP, I found the answer (haven't been following the thread closely at all).

Paul is speaking of private tongues, which he is all for, and tongues in church, which he's also keen to have happen provided they're accompanied with interpretation.

Do we agree so far?

No, we don't agree so far, because Paul was not present with Christ's Apostles at the time of Acts 2 on Pentecost, which Acts 2 is what I'm talking about.

If you're having a difficult time recognizing what is written in the Acts 2 chapter, then I cannot help you, only God can.
 

DP

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Sep 27, 2015
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Exactly Willie, the 'cloven tongues' describes the Holy Spirit manifestation of fire that settled upon them, and not what they were saying as a result of it.

I also become suspicious whenever someone repeats the same verse repeatedly by, of, and solely by itself. It's a sign of advanced tunnel vision, which unfortunately it seems far far too many here suffer from.
You mean you also deny that the cloven tongue on Pentecost manifested to the hearers as their own languages???

How do you interpret these verses then?

Acts 2:5-8
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
KJV

Do you think I'm repeating this just to win an argument? I assure, I am doing no such thing.

 

kohelet

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2012
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No, we don't agree so far, because Paul was not present with Christ's Apostles at the time of Acts 2 on Pentecost, which Acts 2 is what I'm talking about.
If you're having a difficult time recognizing what is written in the Acts 2 chapter, then I cannot help you, only God can.


Oh, what's written in Acts 2 is clear, DP. It is an account of what happened on the day of Pentecost, a narrative. Teaching on the use of the gift of tongues in the New Testament and today is found in 1 Corinthians 12-14 and is didactic.

So far so good?
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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No I'm saying you're confusing tongues of fire with tongues of language.
 

kohelet

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2012
349
228
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What does that Greek word dialektos (dialect) as used in Acts 2:6 mean?

Per Acts 2:11, exactly what did that multitude hear the Apostles speak?
The word dialektos means "language" or "speech" rather than "dialect". The people heard their own language.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
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Plenty of Scripture link demons to disease. The one I posted for instance.

As far as "shaking" look up "trembling" in Scripture.

At least we agree the sick should go to the church, but that Scripture is really written to "elders" not organization, but mature believers in the faith who understand who they are in Christ.

Every single period in church history has signs and wonders in it. I know plenty more resources, but when someone answers a long post I write and doesn't comment on the points I write and ignores the points that I state. I bow out of conversations for those who are seriously wanting to find the truth. I have plenty of more Scripture and resources to share on this topic as this isn't theory to me, I pray for people every single day.

I consider healing the sick a command from the Lord. And I want Him to get everything He paid for. Deut lists sickness as a curse, but Scripture says Jesus became a curse for us, so the curse no longer applies to us.

Consider this: Jesus is perfect theology. He is the invisible made visible. If the Father wanted people sick, why would the Son of God heal them? A kingdom divided against itself can not stand. Why did Jesus get mad when the disciples couldn't heal? Why did Jesus never say its the Fathers will you be sick and He is using this to teach you something, but so many do today? Why did Paul tell believers the reason they were sick and even sleeping is because they didn't discern the blood and body of Christ? Why did James tell us IF not when someone gets sick that they are to be prayed for and the prayer will heal them? Why do people think they can tell the Spirit He is no longer allowed to give His gifts? Why do people think they can sit on the Internet and tell ministers who God has anointed that they are frauds? It's ridiculous. Stop straining out gnats and swallowing camels instead.

C.[/QUOTE
Sorry for late response
Excuse me for not answered all your points. The topic of this threat is charismatic movement.
Its not speaking about how the Lord works today. I am convinced that he is at work today as he was in past. This included: answers our prayer for healing (with a yes, no ore later); guide.lead and enable us for the task we should do through his Holy Spirit.
All believers have the Holy Spirit. All believers are the children of the almighty father, which we can call Abba. And the Holy Spirit give the gifts according his will. And this from the time of Pentecost on and when the gospel reached us.

But we are talking not about that, we are talking about a movement which is founded since around 110 years ago in US.
If we speak from this then it began in 1906 Azusa Street in LA. And spread then into the world to build Pentecost churches. From the sixties on (second wave) and eighties (third wave) charismatic movements went in the existing denominations, including the catholic church.
When we today speak from charismatic movement then the roots are in the different waves and finaly in the event of Asuza Street in 1906.

According my understanding from the bible get everybody the Holy Spirit who is born again, according the scripture. So all believers received the Holy Spirit.

The reformation time was an european ( f.e. England, Netherlands, France; Switzerland and Germany)movement back to the word of God and away from the not biblical doctrine of the catholic church. This reformation was the foundation for many denominations. (as I mentioned before) Till 1906 these denominations taught never the teachings about the Holy Spirit in the way as the Pentecostal movement started to do.
So what does this means? These denominations were wrong? Was their faith wrong? Did the Holy Spirit did not enable the believers of this denominations for the ministry? How the Holy Spirit works is depend on which denomination you belong?
The Holy Spirit is given for all believers the same.
The difference in almost all the denominations which we have is man made according a different understanding ore outlay of the scripture doctrine ore emphasis to a certain topic, etc.
The charismatic/pentecostal movement is quite different. Here it is the different interpreting of how the Holy Spirit works today in Christians the topic.

The bible never mentioned a second Pentecost, nor it reveal a second bathing with the Holy Spirit, also we don’t find in the bible that as a sign of Holy Spirit a holy laughing, noising and acting like an animal, falling backward as a touching from the Holy Spirit.
Compare to the apostolic time it is a poor witness: If the charismatic movement claims they have the order to heal like the apostle did in the apostolic time. If so then the healings from so called People which have the gift of healing must be 100% as it was in the apostolic time. If people came to the Lord Jesus ore to the apostles they got healed 100%, according what is mentioned in the 4 gospels and in book of acts.
If people which say they have the gift of prophecy, their sayings should be fulfilled to 100%. And not according what some charismatic leaders stated for their churches only to 40 till 60%.
If the world wide church today has the task to continue with those gifts, then the Holy Spirit would be able to convince all denominations/believers. If the task would be for us today the healing and prophecy would be 100% and no one would go home still sick ore with a not truth coming prophecy which leads him to mistrust the Lord.
If the Holy Spirit would be behind the charismatic movement, then there would be not events like I mentioned above.
Proof it from the scripture: Were NT speaks from a 2. Pentecost; Where people which are full of the Holy spirit, acting like animals and are falling backward and so on. ( I know that the charismatic /Pentecosteal movement is wide spread, also in their teachings)
How was healing and prophecy in the apostolic time and how is it today?
What God says about false prophets?
If it would be the same Spirit, then the results would be the same!
I don’t want blame ore judge anybody, but I have my reasonable questions to this charismatic movement.


PS:Where you got it from that James is only for eldest and not for all believers. Orignial it was send to the 12 tribes (christians with jew background) (James 1,1)
 
E

ember

Guest
Exactly Willie, the 'cloven tongues' describes the Holy Spirit manifestation of fire that settled upon them, and not what they were saying as a result of it.

I also become suspicious whenever someone repeats the same verse repeatedly by, of, and solely by itself. It's a sign of advanced tunnel vision, which unfortunately it seems far far too many here suffer from.


oooo...wait...wait...I saw a really cool sweater for that!

 
Jul 23, 2015
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Most of us here in the Philippines were catholics because our country was been conquered by Spaniards for almost 333 years :rofl:
:smoke: IMAGINED THAT :whistle:

And even i :rofl: a member of them never read any verses in a bible but it was a miracle that I only begin to read the bible from almosts four years until today
AND STILL IM NOT FINISH READING THE ENTIRE BOOK :rofl:
until now :whistle:

same also to my partner :whistle:
Who had almost the same experienced as mine but he is one of the best when it comes to unknown . ...

until next time
my brethrens :smoke: and my fellows :happy:
and my brothers and my sisters
Believers and non believers

God bless us all always

:ty:
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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For sure God is not spooky, He's awesome!

When God reveals something to you while you pray for others, would you consider that a gift of knowledge or wisdom?
God is holy and eternal.

I consider it edification.

I am the disciple. God is the discipler.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
E

ember

Guest
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

John 15:15
 

DP

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Sep 27, 2015
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No I'm saying you're confusing tongues of fire with tongues of language.
I am not confusing the cloven tongue with known languages because... in 'known languages' is HOW the cloven tongue of Pentecost manifested per Acts 2.
 

DP

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Sep 27, 2015
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The word dialektos means "language" or "speech" rather than "dialect". The people heard their own language.
The Greek word dialektos is actually where our English word 'dialect' originates.

Merriam-Webster
"a form of a language that is spoken in a particular area and that uses some of its own words, grammar, and pronunciations"

NT:1258
dialektos (dee-al'-ek-tos); from NT:1256; a (mode of) discourse, i.e. "dialect":


KJV - language, tongue.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Nice try though, with trying to twist the meaning of Greek dialketos to mean something else other than dialect.
 

DP

Banned
Sep 27, 2015
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Oh, what's written in Acts 2 is clear, DP. It is an account of what happened on the day of Pentecost, a narrative. Teaching on the use of the gift of tongues in the New Testament and today is found in 1 Corinthians 12-14 and is didactic.

So far so good?
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Yes, what is written in Acts 2 is... clear, very clear. But the question is, do you agree with what it actually states?

Acts 2:5-11
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.


6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language (dialektos).

What did they say they heard the Apostles speak? some gibberish? No, each person heard the Apostles speak in their own language dialect. That means known language dialects of the world that people speak. That is HOW the cloven tongue manifested to them.



7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?


8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue (dialektos), wherein we were born?

Here the Scripture is very specific again, with 'dialect', which means how one speaks from a certain region of a language. The rest of the terms mention in Acts 2 like "tongue" or "tongues" is the Greek word glossa, which means a language.

The Holy Spirit is very exact here with this meaning, because a regional dialect of a language is very difficult for a foreigner not of that region to learn. And here they knew the Apostles were not... from their own nation and region, and yet they heard the Apostles speak that accurately in their own language dialects.



9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,


10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,


11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
KJV

The Holy Spirit is also very clear that what those peoples heard was 'understood', not babel speak, but actual words of understanding about "the wonderful works of God."

So if you claim to speak the cloven tongue of Pentecost, and it is not heard and understood like those on Pentecost did, then it is not... the true cloven tongue of Pentecost per Acts 2. It's that simple.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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I am not confusing the cloven tongue with known languages because... in 'known languages' is HOW the cloven tongue of Pentecost manifested per Acts 2.
Here, someone gave me something for you...



 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
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I am not confusing the cloven tongue with known languages because... in 'known languages' is HOW the cloven tongue of Pentecost manifested per Acts 2.
Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

That is how the Holy Spirit manifested to them. As tongues of fire.

4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

That is how the Holy Spirit worked thru them

Two different things my friend. If you still can't see that, enjoy the sweater.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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Oh and, yeah, keep ignoring that pesky 1 Corinthians 14 passage. I can see how acknowledging that would show how limited your view is on the subject.