I wonder what you mean by indirectly. Marilology is not found in Scripture, neither her sinlessness, nor her perpetual virginity, not her bodily assumption, nor immaculate conception, or that she is the mother of humanity and queen of heaven, nor her ability to intercede on our behalf. Some of the RCC beliefs/doctrines/dogma explicitly and directly defy Scripture.
The Catholics and my conclusion
- Thread starter Blain
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People are fallible. People in the world and in the Church and you and I. All the presidents and princes and people of the world. Infallibility, papal or otherwise, does not apply to every action of the Church, and you know that, and so your idea that this 2000 year old Church of billions upon many billions of members throughout its history must have a perfect and spotless and infallibly utopian-ideal history is ludicrous.
Was it the will of God that the Church resist Islam and it's violent menacing into the West, for example? Was war between East/Islam and West/Christendom the will of God? For goodness sake, man, things on such a scale and everything that happened throughout it, war and all of its atrocities and all the centuries. Read those books of warfare in the Old Testament. Was this God's will? Terrible things happened, but what if the sword of Islam had not been met with sword at the gates of the West? We see the same today. Where would we be today had they not been resisted then? Nothing's changed. The Church doesn't have to play the roll of the politically governing order in western civilization anymore (thank God) as it did all those centuries ago, but crossnote despite your ideals you're just gonna have to wait for paradise on earth until He comes again.
Was it the will of God that the Church resist Islam and it's violent menacing into the West, for example? Was war between East/Islam and West/Christendom the will of God? For goodness sake, man, things on such a scale and everything that happened throughout it, war and all of its atrocities and all the centuries. Read those books of warfare in the Old Testament. Was this God's will? Terrible things happened, but what if the sword of Islam had not been met with sword at the gates of the West? We see the same today. Where would we be today had they not been resisted then? Nothing's changed. The Church doesn't have to play the roll of the politically governing order in western civilization anymore (thank God) as it did all those centuries ago, but crossnote despite your ideals you're just gonna have to wait for paradise on earth until He comes again.
What? No verse 14, 15?
2 Tim 3:
[14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned (TRADITION) and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it (MAGISTERIUM)
[15] and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings (SCRIPTURE) which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
Sola scripturists ignore verse 14 and 15 because it demolishes their position.
The Bible on St. Paul's list comes in third, not first. He actually gives here the traditional Catholic teaching on the three sources of sound teaching.
In verse 15 he goes into an excursus on the Bible. This brief excursus emphasizes the value of the Bible and recommends a fourfold method of exegesis. This verse was used as a proof text for the Quadriga which was the standard Catholic approach to the Bible. The Quadriga method used the following four categories:
Literal/Literary (teaching) - the text as it is written
Analogical (reproof) - matters of faith
Anagogical (correction) - matters of hope/prophecy
Moral (training in righteousness) - matters of charity
The so called reformers rejected all this and instead adopted a more literal approach to biblical exegesis, and Martin Luther was rejected by his contemporaries for ignoring 2 Timothy 3:16.
You didn't explicitly say "spawn of satan, you said:
"spawn of satan" "morphed into a beast" is there really a difference? The Crusades were necessary, the slaughtering you mention is mostly Protestant propaganda. The Inquisition was formed to stop the slaughtering done by secular governments; heresy and treason was the same crime. Even Protestant seminaries no long teach your garbage.
The Real History of the Crusades < not a Catholic site
Historical revision of the Inquisition < wikipedia, anything but Catholic.
You need to do a little reading and stop demonizing the Church out of ignorance and prejudice.
2 Tim 3:
[14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned (TRADITION) and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it (MAGISTERIUM)
[15] and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings (SCRIPTURE) which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
Sola scripturists ignore verse 14 and 15 because it demolishes their position.
The Bible on St. Paul's list comes in third, not first. He actually gives here the traditional Catholic teaching on the three sources of sound teaching.
In verse 15 he goes into an excursus on the Bible. This brief excursus emphasizes the value of the Bible and recommends a fourfold method of exegesis. This verse was used as a proof text for the Quadriga which was the standard Catholic approach to the Bible. The Quadriga method used the following four categories:
Literal/Literary (teaching) - the text as it is written
Analogical (reproof) - matters of faith
Anagogical (correction) - matters of hope/prophecy
Moral (training in righteousness) - matters of charity
The so called reformers rejected all this and instead adopted a more literal approach to biblical exegesis, and Martin Luther was rejected by his contemporaries for ignoring 2 Timothy 3:16.
You didn't explicitly say "spawn of satan, you said:
"spawn of satan" "morphed into a beast" is there really a difference? The Crusades were necessary, the slaughtering you mention is mostly Protestant propaganda. The Inquisition was formed to stop the slaughtering done by secular governments; heresy and treason was the same crime. Even Protestant seminaries no long teach your garbage.
The Real History of the Crusades < not a Catholic site
Historical revision of the Inquisition < wikipedia, anything but Catholic.
You need to do a little reading and stop demonizing the Church out of ignorance and prejudice.
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As far as I see then, contrary to what I have been told and according to your statements here, the Roman Catholic Church is fallible, it does make mistakes.
As far as your questions on Islam etc. Jesus said His Kingdom is not here otherwise His Church would fight. But I guess Rome missed that memo
Israel fought under her Theocracy, does Rome still think she is the New Israel?
I suppose with something of an oxymoron like the "Roman Catholic" Church it sees itself as God's Kingdom here on earth...which really won't be realized until Jesus returns and sets up HIS KINGDOM here on earth.
As far as your questions on Islam etc. Jesus said His Kingdom is not here otherwise His Church would fight. But I guess Rome missed that memo
Israel fought under her Theocracy, does Rome still think she is the New Israel?I suppose with something of an oxymoron like the "Roman Catholic" Church it sees itself as God's Kingdom here on earth...which really won't be realized until Jesus returns and sets up HIS KINGDOM here on earth.
Greetings Blain,
From what you have said, it sounds like you missed the most important part of your research and that being researching the actual teachings of Roman Catholicism, their dogma's and catechism. What did you find out about Mary worship, the Eucharist, Transubstantiation, the Sacraments, Purgartory, indulgences, etc., etc.? By the way Epostle regarding what you said "All Catholic doctrine is directly or indirectly from scripture" is false, as none of those teachings just mentioned are not found in scripture. And Blain, those details just mentioned do not take years of study in order to understand that they are not from the word of God, but are false teachings, that is for those who are familiar with Scripture.
The liturgy of Roman Catholicism reminds me of Gentile Pharisees, with their flowing robes, their rosary beads (Phylacteries), and the love of their pious positions, their whole hierarchy, which is the opposite of how Jesus said we are supposed to be. When you look into the history of the RCC and her pope's, then you can understand where she came from and what her future agenda is. The pope's are the offspring of Constantine and the emperors that followed and they inherited their positions as political and religious leaders. Because the RCC sees herself as the true Church, her agenda is to bring all people and all religious sects under her power. I've said it many times, when that ruler comes, that man of lawlessness, it will empower the papal office and anyone who resists, just as it was of old, they will be labeled as a heretic, with grave consequences. Did you know that there are currently hundreds of anathema's in RCC dogma and catechism? Here is an example of just one:
"If anyone says that in the sacred and holy sacrament of the Eucharist the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and denies that wonderful and singular change of the whole substance of the bread into the body and the whole substance of the wine into the blood, the appearances only of bread and wine remaining, which change the Catholic Church most aptly calls transubstantiation, let him be anathema."
The above is from the Canons from the counsel of Trent concerning the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist (1551). This canon is basically saying, if anyone says that the Eucharist is only meant to be figurative and that transubstantiation is not taking place, then let them be accursed. As I said, this is just one, there are hundreds of these anathema's. For those of us who know the truth, that the Lord's supper was meant to be figurative of his body and blood, then the RCC anathema is against us. Someone forgot to tell them that you have to have God behind you in order for those anathema's to be valid.
From what you have said, it sounds like you missed the most important part of your research and that being researching the actual teachings of Roman Catholicism, their dogma's and catechism. What did you find out about Mary worship, the Eucharist, Transubstantiation, the Sacraments, Purgartory, indulgences, etc., etc.? By the way Epostle regarding what you said "All Catholic doctrine is directly or indirectly from scripture" is false, as none of those teachings just mentioned are not found in scripture. And Blain, those details just mentioned do not take years of study in order to understand that they are not from the word of God, but are false teachings, that is for those who are familiar with Scripture.
The liturgy of Roman Catholicism reminds me of Gentile Pharisees, with their flowing robes, their rosary beads (Phylacteries), and the love of their pious positions, their whole hierarchy, which is the opposite of how Jesus said we are supposed to be. When you look into the history of the RCC and her pope's, then you can understand where she came from and what her future agenda is. The pope's are the offspring of Constantine and the emperors that followed and they inherited their positions as political and religious leaders. Because the RCC sees herself as the true Church, her agenda is to bring all people and all religious sects under her power. I've said it many times, when that ruler comes, that man of lawlessness, it will empower the papal office and anyone who resists, just as it was of old, they will be labeled as a heretic, with grave consequences. Did you know that there are currently hundreds of anathema's in RCC dogma and catechism? Here is an example of just one:
"If anyone says that in the sacred and holy sacrament of the Eucharist the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and denies that wonderful and singular change of the whole substance of the bread into the body and the whole substance of the wine into the blood, the appearances only of bread and wine remaining, which change the Catholic Church most aptly calls transubstantiation, let him be anathema."
The above is from the Canons from the counsel of Trent concerning the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist (1551). This canon is basically saying, if anyone says that the Eucharist is only meant to be figurative and that transubstantiation is not taking place, then let them be accursed. As I said, this is just one, there are hundreds of these anathema's. For those of us who know the truth, that the Lord's supper was meant to be figurative of his body and blood, then the RCC anathema is against us. Someone forgot to tell them that you have to have God behind you in order for those anathema's to be valid.
G
Metaphorically speaking; you kind-of set a fire in the living room with the first thread. Then you started another thread so more insults can be thrown at each other. Instead of telling everyone to stop, you have sat back and justified your actions as exploration. Goodness, now look...created mass distention of hate. (Or dislike if people prefer that word.)
Can't we just make peace? Would we be this unkind to each other in person? Colleagues, neighbours, relatives...the intensity of right or wrong is slanderous.
I will start; I am apologetic to anyone I offended that may be Catholic. It's been an interesting journey into learning of your culture; and who knows, we may all meet up in Heaven? We are all obviously very passionate about God! Jesus makes the final judgement and I have to trust He sees everyone's heart...not me, ever.
** Many blessings be bestowed upon those who walk with strength and conviction in God our Father; and to control one's anger and strife. Satan is all of our mortal enemy; and we should be wise to focus on that commonality than our differences. In this I say and in all things good, amen! **
Can't we just make peace? Would we be this unkind to each other in person? Colleagues, neighbours, relatives...the intensity of right or wrong is slanderous.
I will start; I am apologetic to anyone I offended that may be Catholic. It's been an interesting journey into learning of your culture; and who knows, we may all meet up in Heaven? We are all obviously very passionate about God! Jesus makes the final judgement and I have to trust He sees everyone's heart...not me, ever.
** Many blessings be bestowed upon those who walk with strength and conviction in God our Father; and to control one's anger and strife. Satan is all of our mortal enemy; and we should be wise to focus on that commonality than our differences. In this I say and in all things good, amen! **
Nobody is claiming the CC doesn't make mistakes, the claim is she teaches infallibly on faith and morals. Here are a few scriptures, I have about a dozen scriptures explaining infallibility, here are a few:
Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14,22 - the early Church is identified as the "Way" prophesied in Isaiah 35:8 where fools will not err therein.
Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 - Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Also, since the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.
Matt. 16:19 - for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.
Matt. 16:19 - for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.
John 11:51-52 - some non-Catholics argue that sinners cannot have the power to teach infallibly. But in this verse, God allows Caiaphas to prophesy infallibly, even though he was evil and plotted Jesus' death. God allows sinners to teach infallibly, just as He allows sinners to become saints. As a loving Father, He exalts His children, and is bound by His own justice to give His children a mechanism to know truth from error.
John 14:26 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would teach the Church (the apostles and successors) all things regarding the faith. This means that the Church can teach us the right moral positions on such things as in vitro fertilization, cloning and other issues that are not addressed in the Bible. After all, these issues of morality are necessary for our salvation, and God would not leave such important issues to be decided by us sinners without His divine assistance.
read more here
If you are referring to the Crusades, it was a just war. Just War Doctrine is based on the principle that if someone were to break into your home with the intent of killing you and your family, you have a moral obligation to resist. Lying on the floor with a bible on your face does not make you a good Christian, it makes you an idiot.
Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14,22 - the early Church is identified as the "Way" prophesied in Isaiah 35:8 where fools will not err therein.
Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 - Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Also, since the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.
Matt. 16:19 - for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.
Matt. 16:19 - for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.
John 11:51-52 - some non-Catholics argue that sinners cannot have the power to teach infallibly. But in this verse, God allows Caiaphas to prophesy infallibly, even though he was evil and plotted Jesus' death. God allows sinners to teach infallibly, just as He allows sinners to become saints. As a loving Father, He exalts His children, and is bound by His own justice to give His children a mechanism to know truth from error.
John 14:26 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would teach the Church (the apostles and successors) all things regarding the faith. This means that the Church can teach us the right moral positions on such things as in vitro fertilization, cloning and other issues that are not addressed in the Bible. After all, these issues of morality are necessary for our salvation, and God would not leave such important issues to be decided by us sinners without His divine assistance.
read more here
As far as your questions on Islam etc. Jesus said His Kingdom is not here otherwise His Church would fight. But I guess Rome missed that memo Israel fought under her Theocracy, does Rome still think she is the New Israel?
Israel fought under her Theocracy, does Rome still think she is the New Israel?
Rome made a concerted effort to keep men from the knowledge of the Scriptures. In the year 1206, the Albigenses, who debated the Catholic priests,said: "The Church of Rome was not the spouse of Christ, but the church of confusion, drunk with the blood of the martyrs... the church of Rome was neither good, nor holy, nor established by Jesus Christ."
Dominic de Guzman was unable to prove the Albigenses wrong through preaching, and was humiliated by his failure. Speaking "on behalf of" Christ, he promised slavery and death to his opponents. To carry out his threats, he formed the order of the Dominicans, which became the chief instrument of Rome's inquisition. Pope Innocent III and Dominic de Guzman became the "founders" of the inquisition, in their opposition to Bible-believing Christians.
[video=youtube;hM9fcuaVF8U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM9fcuaVF8U[/video]
Dominic de Guzman was unable to prove the Albigenses wrong through preaching, and was humiliated by his failure. Speaking "on behalf of" Christ, he promised slavery and death to his opponents. To carry out his threats, he formed the order of the Dominicans, which became the chief instrument of Rome's inquisition. Pope Innocent III and Dominic de Guzman became the "founders" of the inquisition, in their opposition to Bible-believing Christians.
[video=youtube;hM9fcuaVF8U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM9fcuaVF8U[/video]
That's like saying that the ocean is a little wet! It's not about mistakes, the RCC's whole belief system is opposed to God's word. It was Satan's intention to mix just enough Christianity in to make it look plausible. But for those of us who know God's word, it ain't flyin'! And I'm not being hateful, I'm just contending for the truth. God loves the RCC so much that he is going to have the beast and the ten kings destroy her with fire some time during the second half of that last seven years. I pray for those whom God is calling out of Mystery Babylon daily and I will continue to expose her for who she is.
Why do some people have the deep seated need to bash and attack instead of to correct and inform in God's loving kindness? Is that what they taught you in bible college?
If so i guess you got an A+ in that class?
Go back and learn how to love others in the name of Jesus maybe? If you can. Maybe you can't?
If so i guess you got an A+ in that class?
Go back and learn how to love others in the name of Jesus maybe? If you can. Maybe you can't?
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Why do some people have the deep seated need to bash and attack instead of to correct and inform in God's loving kindness? Is that what they taught you in bible college?
If so i guess you got an A+ in that class?
Go back and learn how to love others in the name of Jesus maybe? If you can. Maybe you can't?
If so i guess you got an A+ in that class?
Go back and learn how to love others in the name of Jesus maybe? If you can. Maybe you can't?
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God[SUP]a[/SUP] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
Teaching, rebuking and correcting. Just because I'm forward and to the point does not make me unloving, as I said, I pray for the people within the RCC everyday. People always proclaim that you are being a hater if you tell them the truth. Jesus said "you will be hated by all nations because of me and for the word of God" and that is why this contention exists.
Hahha!! Completely thought the same thing or someone who made a new identity because they sure know how to use the formats. I still haven't figured those out.
