He became sin...???

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Roberth said:
Here's the NASB*:

"Our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with...."

Let's be honest with the above quote:

What is "our old self" according to the context?

Answer: "our old self" = "our body of sin"
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nevermind that you completely ignored the scripture i reminded you of,
but i'm a math guy. so let me stop you right there.

we don't get equality from this verse.

we get:

our body of sin ⊂ our old self ​

we don't get the reverse; that our old self is a subset of our body of sin. to prove equality, you need both directions.
Romans 7:23-24 also only supports the forward direction:

the law of sin ⊂ our members

​
 
Did your old self die in Christ when He was crucified? If not, you remain under the curse of the law, unless you think you can obey the law as Christ did. Your choice.
 
Roberth said:
Did your old self die in Christ when He was crucified? If not, you remain under the curse of the law, unless you think you can obey the law as Christ did. Your choice.
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what does this have to do with anything i posted?
 
Roberth said:
Did your old self die in Christ when He was crucified? If not, you remain under the curse of the law, unless you think you can obey the law as Christ did. Your choice.
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Rom 7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), thatthe law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?

Here Paul is writing to the believers in Roman, both Jew and Gentile. The law of God demands obedience as long as your are alive, but if you sin (even once) it demands justice: Your death.

So what did God do since all of us stand under God's law guilty of transgression? The answer is the gospel:

He put you in Christ via the incarnation. And then on the cross"You died to the law in the body of Christ." Rom 7:4

Now, here's a question: Don't you have a sinful nature? Yes! And you were where? In Christ when He died as the son of man.

That means that if Christ's assumed your life, from Adam, it had "the law of sin" in it. SO "in Christ" your body of sin (your life indwelt by self-love) died forever....That means the law is satisfied and it no longer has jurisdiction over you....

 
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Roberth said:



1] We aren't born guilty of Adam's sin: We are born condemned because we share Adam's life. Big difference. Only when we sin Adam's sin to we become guilty of his sin.

2] Christ didn't crucify himself: Adam's life, which we all share, died with Christ as the son of man. That shared life included "the law of sin" which ever man is born with....
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Yes we are both guilty of Adam's sin because we inherit it, not through DNA but judicially. It was transferred not as the sin of the fathers to the sons but from the federal head the first Adam.. Adam was created without sin with his wife and he sinned through transgression and the consequence was that all who came after were born with this inheritance of sin. It is involuntary on our part but judicially imputed by God to man, for all have sinned through Adam's transgression.
 
BradC said:
Yes we are both guilty of Adam's sin because we inherit it, not through DNA but judicially.
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"...Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live.20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them." Ez 18:19-20 NIV

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned (in Adam)—13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Rom 5:12,13
 
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Roberth said:
"...Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live.20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them." Ez 18:19-20 NIV
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Guilt can't be transferred. The person that sins becomes guilty. Therefore we are not guilty of Adam's sin unless we commit his sins. His sins were

1] Adam ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil against God's command not to.

2] He chose his wife, Eve, over God.
 
Roberth said:
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned (in Adam)—13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Rom 5:12,13
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All sinned, not in the sense all sinned in the likeness of Adam (see verse 14 last part), but all shared Adam's fallen life and therefore all came under the sentence of death (condemnation).

Besides, the people from Adam until Moses (where the law was given) knew nothing of the law and were therefore not charged with transgression. Guilt involves volition.

Hence "sin is not imputed when there is no law." Hence they weren't guilty of transgression. They were, however, sinners...just ignorant sinners.
 
Roberth said:
Besides, the people from Adam until Moses (where the law was given) knew nothing of the law and were therefore not charged with transgression. Guilt involves volition. Hence "sin is not imputed when there is no law."
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This is why all infants, who die before they come to know the law (i.e., conscientiously know they are sinners - hence the age of accountability), will be ultimately saved. But that's another subject based on Romans 5:18

That's good news for all those aborted infants, but bad news to those mother's who murdered their infants, unless they repent and receive Christ.
 
KJV1611 said:
There is a reason human DNA looks like intertwined serpents lol.
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No doubt and some real saints that have spent real sincere time in prayer at the Cross will tell you that the spiritual force of "sin" looks like a serpent.... But this was not In Jesus...He was without sin period until He took our sin on His Cross.
 
Mitspa said:
Yes I understand the word pas...Im quite able in the Greek and to translate it as "all points" is just an opinion and an addition of a word to the text. now the word "similitude" or "likeness" is clearly in the text (homoiotes) but left un-translated for some reason ?
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I've been away for awhile and couldn't respond to this but I would like to come back to it. It looks to me like Homoiotes is in the KJV translation, it's translated as "like as" isn't it? If not maybe you could explain.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
 
KJV1611 said:
I've been away for awhile and couldn't respond to this but I would like to come back to it. It looks to me like Homoiotes is in the KJV translation, it's translated as "like as" isn't it? If not maybe you could explain.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
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Its a really bad translation of the word and the passage overall. The use of "like" almost makes it almost meaningless in the context of the passage.
Im sure you know the word is much stronger when used in chapter 7....

Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident for that after the similitude (homoiotes) of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
 
Roberth said:
All sinned, not in the sense all sinned in the likeness of Adam (see verse 14 last part), but all shared Adam's fallen life and therefore all came under the sentence of death (condemnation).

Besides, the people from Adam until Moses (where the law was given) knew nothing of the law and were therefore not charged with transgression. Guilt involves volition.

Hence "sin is not imputed when there is no law." Hence they weren't guilty of transgression. They were, however, sinners...just ignorant sinners.
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Why do all people sin? Is it because they have a good heart or a deceitful and desperately wicked heart? Where did that heart come from and why is it filled with works of the flesh (Gal 5:19-21) that can defile a man when it proceeds out? These things that are in the heart of man described in (Mt 15 & Mk 7), how did they get there and when did these things enter the heart? Do not all these things described have something to do with the law? Take a look!

Mt 15:18-20

18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man:

MK 7:21-23 (After the law was given)

21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Prov 4:23

23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.

Gen 6:5,6 (Before the law was given)

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

How did all these evil things that relate to the law and its transgression get into the heart of man before and after the law was given to Moses? Are you going to tell us that adultery, murders and thefts (to name a few) that proceed from the heart (locative of sphere) do not violate the law that was given? Did not the Lord himself say that whosoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart (Mt 5:28)? The law is holy so before the law was given did not these things violate the heart of the law and the holiness of God? The law was given to reveal to man what was in his heart so that the whole world would become guilty of what...transgressions, trespasses, sin and iniquity, all in the heart, in the thought life of every man and in the imaginations of every man's heart.

Rom 3:19-23

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin (1 Cor 15:56).
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

BTW we the testimony of Rom 2:11-15...

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

Rom 3:9-12

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews (have the law)and Gentiles (are without the law), that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (if none are righteous then all have transgressed with or without the law)
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (none seeketh after God because their heart is deceitful and wicked)
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (because they have not the goodness of God in their heart)

1 John 3:4,5

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (the law can be transgressed without knowing it)
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

If sin is a transgression of the law and by the law is the knowledge of sin, how was sin passed upon all men from that one man Adam when there was no law until Moses? We know that Adam transgressed with the woman and sin was passed upon all men, so what was the sin of all men from Adam to Moses? If not a transgression of the law then explain the sin of man from Adam to Moses. Was it a violation of conscience like the Gentiles in (Rom 2:15) as a work of the law written in their hearts? Did not those from Adam to Moses who sinned not have that same work of the law written in their hearts with their conscience bearing witness? Did they just live in sin and not realize it (by not having the law) and if that be true would not all their sin be sins of ignorance? In (Lev 4) were not the sins of ignorance also considered to be a trespass against the Lord (Lev 5:15-19)? Is the law greater then the Lord? If any man trespass against the Lord and another is found in transgressing the law will they both be guilty of sin and will not the law of sin and death reign in the members of their body?
 
Mitspa said:
Its a really bad translation of the word and the passage overall. The use of "like" almost makes it almost meaningless in the context of the passage.
Im sure you know the word is much stronger when used in chapter 7....

Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident for that after the similitude (homoiotes) of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
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Meaningless... I don't think so. It means he was tempted like we are. All the translations below say Jesus was tempted like we are tempted, are they all wrong?


Hebrews 4:15Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tested in every way as we are, yet without sin.


Hebrews 4:15English Standard Version (ESV)

15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.


Hebrews 4:15New American Standard Bible (NASB)

15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.


Hebrews 4:15New International Version (NIV)

15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.


Hebrews 4:15King James Version (KJV)

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
 
KJV1611 said:
Meaningless... I don't think so. It means he was tempted like we are. All the translations below say Jesus was tempted like we are tempted, are they all wrong?


Hebrews 4:15Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tested in every way as we are, yet without sin.


Hebrews 4:15English Standard Version (ESV)

15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.


Hebrews 4:15New American Standard Bible (NASB)

15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.


Hebrews 4:15New International Version (NIV)

15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.


Hebrews 4:15King James Version (KJV)

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
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Sure and I would agree with some of those being better than the KJV..which is my point ..That the scriptures is not saying that Jesus was tempted with sin in the flesh as we are, but His faith was tested as ours is...which is the whole context of Heb 4 ..and the whole book of Hebrews for that matter. So to take this scripture as translated in the KJV, and deny all other scriptures that relates to Christ and claim He had sin in the flesh...is complete error
 
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