LORDSHIP SALVATION

[P1LGR1M]

It is not a false argument and I am not addressing it in the way you want me to because your answer is based on physical understanding.

I was pointing out the Spiritual understanding of it to show these people were born again, yet you did not like the answer therefore you continue to make false statements as if I didn't answer.

Nobody has to answer the way you demand them to answer for we are not accountable to you, but we are accountable to God and will have to answer if we do away with His words.

Remember there is warnings about adding or taking away from His words !!!

It doesn't show them being born again, my friend, it shows exactly what happened: they were identified with Moses, they were led by the Holy Spirit, and they passed through the sea on dry land.

Here are those same people:


Hebrews 3:7-13

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.


You do realize these are the ones "baptized into Moses," right?

Here the writer concludes on their rebellion:


Hebrews 3:17-19

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

[SUP]19 [/SUP]So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.


And again...


Hebrews 4

King James Version (KJV)

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.


Now, would you mind stating where you stand in regards to the Lordship/No-Lordship Salvation Controversy?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

There you go distorting things and saying something I never said, as I never said the Church is baptized into Moses.

On the contrary, I tried to get you to state it...but you refused to answer the question.

That is the implication, though, when you spiritualize Scripture and impose something into it that is simply not there.

They were baptized into Moses...we are Baptized into Christ, which establishes the difference between the two groups, lol.

Amazing.

That is what you are saying as you continue to look only at the physical and not the Spiritual application of the scripture.

I am not only looking at the physical, I am correcting the erroneous spiritualization you impose into the text.

Here is another question: is there a difference between being baptized into Moses and being baptized into Christ?

Nowhere was baptizing by the act of immersing in water done away with anywhere in the bible; Jesus commanded it done, and the Apostles commanded it done and carried it out.

I never said it was, lol.

What I will say is that no-one is saved by being water baptized, and will be glad to debate that issue in the other thread.

Ten Reasons To Reject Baptismal Regeneration

I have given you a few scriptures showing water and blood both used in dedicating the covenants, and showed how it was used in both the OT and NT. Also take a look at the Lord Jesus when His side was pierced while on the cross, what came out of His side blood, water, or both ??? Both !!!

And what you will not be able to do is equate the water and blood used in regards to Old Testament Covenants with that of the New Covenant.

Different Blood (death), though the true water (the Word) remains constant in salvation.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Do not bring your servant into judgement for no one living is (truly) righteous before you psalms 143:2

Do you mean the lordship debate as in does salvation include works?

I will answer assuming that is the question

A person is saved by faith I Christ alone. The works God requires are done out of love and gratitude for a FREE salvation. God does not want works that are done with a view they will better enable someone to attain heaven

Review the thread please.

Amazing.


God bless.

 

[james57]

Review the thread please.

Amazing.


God bless.

I'm sorry I don't have time to review the thread. If you put simply the question you want me to answer I will answer it

 

[P1LGR1M]

I'm sorry I don't have time to review the thread. If you put simply the question you want me to answer I will answer it

Same question, where do you stand in regards to the Lordship/No-Lordship Controversy, and not according to what mean by those terms, but what they mean in reality.

I would say probably the last 10 pages really deal with the issue itself, the rest is quite a lot of evasion, lol.


God bless.

 

[BradC]

There you go distorting things and saying something I never said, as I never said the Church is baptized into Moses.

That is what you are saying as you continue to look only at the physical and not the Spiritual application of the scripture.

Nowhere was baptizing by the act of immersing in water done away with anywhere in the bible; Jesus commanded it done, and the Apostles commanded it done and carried it out.

I have given you a few scriptures showing water and blood both used in dedicating the covenants, and showed how it was used in both the OT and NT. Also take a look at the Lord Jesus when His side was pierced while on the cross, what came out of His side blood, water, or both ??? Both !!!

Jesus said unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you. He never mentions anything about water, why not?

 

[KennethC]

On the contrary, I tried to get you to state it...but you refused to answer the question.

That is the implication, though, when you spiritualize Scripture and impose something into it that is simply not there.

They were baptized into Moses...we are Baptized into Christ, which establishes the difference between the two groups, lol.

Amazing.




I am not only looking at the physical, I am correcting the erroneous spiritualization you impose into the text.

Here is another question: is there a difference between being baptized into Moses and being baptized into Christ?




I never said it was, lol.

What I will say is that no-one is saved by being water baptized, and will be glad to debate that issue in the other thread.

Ten Reasons To Reject Baptismal Regeneration




And what you will not be able to do is equate the water and blood used in regards to Old Testament Covenants with that of the New Covenant.

Different Blood (death), though the true water (the Word) remains constant in salvation.


God bless.

For post #421 you show again you focus on the physical and not the spiritual.

The passing through the cloud and in the sea is symbolic for the Spirit and the water of the new covenant born again by baptism process. You don't want to see that spiritual aspect though as you want to focus just on the physical action that was done.

Hebrews 3 is using the Exodus as an example for us to go by as well, just as the Apostle Jude also does in his epistle. The writer of Hebrews shows how they were made to wander in the wilderness because of their unbelief instead of being taken directly to the promise land, and says for us to take heed so that we don't have a unbelieving heart as well that will lead to no salvation.

A true faith has obedience and disobedience is called unbelief !!!


Now as for this post #422 you do realize the baptized into Moses was symbolic of our baptized into Christ, not that they were actually baptized into Moses ???

Then you give a link that all it does is take us to another thread started by you, should we believe you or should we believe what the Apostle Peter said and how he confirmed water baptism into Christ name more than once ???

The things of the OT were shadows/symbolism for what was to come in the New Covenant, as yes the Word, and you do realize that through the Word means by doing as written that the Lord taught/commanded ???

Being washed by the word does not mean you are cleansed just by reading the scriptures, it means you trust and follow in what it says because it comes from the Lord our God.

 

[KennethC]

Jesus said unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you. He never mentions anything about water, why not?

Yes Jesus did as He commanded baptism in the Great Commission.

Also by Jesus making that statement of "eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you" He was referring to His teachings and commands for salvation under grace.

He is confirming as He said those who love Him will keep His commandments, and those who don't do not keep His words !!!

 

[BradC]

Yes Jesus did as He commanded baptism in the Great Commission.

Also by Jesus making that statement of "eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you" He was referring to His teachings and commands for salvation under grace.

He is confirming as He said those who love Him will keep His commandments, and those who don't do not keep His words !!!

What does it mean to you to eat his flesh?

 

[KennethC]

What does it mean to you to eat his flesh?

Why do some of you wish to repeat the same questions when they have already been answered ???

We are to stand firm in His teachings that the Holy Spirit that is sent to us will keep us in...........

 

[BradC]

Do you really need to ask that question as the Lord Jesus said believers are to obey/observe all that He commanded and taught.

Lord Jesus did not give only 2 commandments like some try to teach, for He only said those are the 2 greatest commandments.

Also I have shown in the past a chart that shows a lot of the places in the NT that new covenant believers will uphold the 10 Commandments as well through walking in love.

Obedience and disobedience is emphasized all throughout the bible, and Paul warns believers about continuing in disobedient sinful behaviors constantly !!!

Are we to obey all the commandments to have eternal life? If we fail in the least of the commandments are we disqualified from eternal life? Is this what Jesus taught his disciples?

 

[james57]

Yes Jesus did as He commanded baptism in the Great Commission.

Also by Jesus making that statement of "eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you" He was referring to His teachings and commands for salvation under grace.

He is confirming as He said those who love Him will keep His commandments, and those who don't do not keep His words !!!

Cornelius and his family received the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost prior to being baptised in water, as did I. I do NOT believe people in an unsaved state receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues

 

[james57]

I'll leave you guys with a quote:


When people ask me, “What’s the biggest problem in the church?” I always say the same thing: The absence of discernment. That is the biggest problem in the church because if you can’t discern the truth with the Word of God in your hand, with the Bible in your hand, if you can’t discern the truth, you can die of 1,000 heresies. It’s like having spiritual AIDS. People who have a deficient immune system can die of 1,000 illnesses. The church can die of 1,000 heresies if it can’t exercise discernment. This is always the issue.

And part of the responsibility of ministry is the positive side to instruct with great patience, as Paul said to Timothy. But the other side is to reprove, rebuke, and exhort, and use the Word of God to do that. And to exercise discernment is at the very heart of Christian living because Christian living is a reflection of Christian thinking, and Christian thinking must be attached to sound doctrine, and that’s where discernment begins.



God bless.

Die of 1,000 heresies eh! I guess you would have had to do a lot of studying to learn enough to make that many mistakes!
I think the best way to avoid such a catastrophe would be to make sure you rely on the Holy Spirit to lead you into truth and not the natural mind. The natural mind could easily bring you to many ''heresies'' the Holy Spirit won't

BTW
I have never heard the word heresy used in any church I have ever been to, just on the internet

 

[BradC]

Why do some of you wish to repeat the same questions when they have already been answered ???

We are to stand firm in His teachings that the Holy Spirit that is sent to us will keep us in...........

There is only one commandment taught by our Lord for eternal life (salvation), he that believer on the Son hath life and he that belief not on the Son hath not life. That is it. Paul taught that with the heart man believes unto righteousness and confession is made with the mouth unto salvation. No water baptism mentioned. If water baptism is essential to salvation it should never be left out. If it was not included, therefore we have no authority to add it to eternal salvation. Water baptism is a separate act of obedience that has nothing to do with the gift of eternal life.

 

[james57]

Sorry, faith is a result of obedience to the Gospel.


[/COLOR]

Isnt obedience to the Gospel the result of faith? Haven't you got that the wrong way around? (Rom1:5)
Mind you, you do write long posts. My concentration lapses after a while lol, I may have missed the point!!

 

[james57]

Lordship Salvation acknowledges that Christians sin after being saved, but that is not the issue. The issue is whether born again believers will maintain a lifestyle that evidences no change. That lacks repentance from sins.

..

Hopefully I've got to the heart of it in your above post. Phew!!


May I ask you a question?

In your view, is it possible for a person to be born again of the Holy Spirit but not understand the message of grace which brings victory over sin?

I have my own views on this but would appreciate hearing yours(in a concise post if possible)

 

[KennethC]

Are we to obey all the commandments to have eternal life? If we fail in the least of the commandments are we disqualified from eternal life? Is this what Jesus taught his disciples?

We all have failed at one time or another at keeping the 10 Commandments, however this where we need to discern and understand the difference between not keeping a commandment here and then repenting of it and that of disobeying the commandments consistently.

Cornelius and his family received the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost prior to being baptised in water, as did I. I do NOT believe people in an unsaved state receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues

I knew this would come up because this is one of the things that gets brought up is the actions done in Acts 10 through Acts 15.

These chapters have a underlining meaning in them of that of showing contentious Jewish believers that Gentile believers have the same right to salvation as they do. They were given the Holy Spirit first by God to show this to those Jews who were against Gentiles having right to salvation, this was never to be taken as the standard.

That is given in Acts 2:38, 3:19, and again in Acts 19:2-6.

Also Acts 10 was later on after Pentecost and not the same day, and as for the Apostles at Pentecost their baptism was mentioned back in John 3. Even in those cases from Acts 10 on they were commanded immediately after to be baptized in water.

 

[KennethC]

There is only one commandment taught by our Lord for eternal life (salvation), he that believer on the Son hath life and he that belief not on the Son hath not life. That is it. Paul taught that with the heart man believes unto righteousness and confession is made with the mouth unto salvation. No water baptism mentioned. If water baptism is essential to salvation it should never be left out. If it was not included, therefore we have no authority to add it to eternal salvation. Water baptism is a separate act of obedience that has nothing to do with the gift of eternal life.

Sorry but that is not true as the Lord gave a number of commandments, and He said multiple times those who do not do as He said will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

 

[james57]

I knew this would come up because this is one of the things that gets brought up is the actions done in Acts 10 through Acts 15.

These chapters have a underlining meaning in them of that of showing contentious Jewish believers that Gentile believers have the same right to salvation as they do. They were given the Holy Spirit first by God to show this to those Jews who were against Gentiles having right to salvation, this was never to be taken as the standard.

That is given in Acts 2:38, 3:19, and again in Acts 19:2-6.

.

I was baptised in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues before I received water Baptism.
My Baptism was confirmed as authentic by an internationally known Evangelist, who told me much about my life though they had never met me before

 

[KennethC]

I was baptised in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues before I received water Baptism.
My Baptism was confirmed as authentic by an internationally known Evangelist, who told me much about my life though they had never met me before

What tongues are you speaking of because the Word of God only speaks of two ways, and neither one is babbling noises out loud.

One is the language of man, meaning our common languages of English, Spanish, French, Chinese, and so on........

The other is the language of God and the angels that is only to be done in prayer, as it is for self-edification......

So if the tongues you are speaking of does not fit in one of those two then it is not of God because babbling out loud is not a tongue mentioned in scripture.

You also know the devil and his demons have ways of deceiving people to ???

This is why we are to test all things and not just take the words of another person over what is written in God's word and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

If it does not align with His word then it is not from God, and Acts 10-15 is clearly a proving to contentious Jews that Gentiles have the same right to salvation as they do.

I gave you the clear passages from the bible that shows when the Holy Spirit is given, and you come back with what another person told you over what the Word of God says. Believe the scriptures not a man !!!