LORDSHIP SALVATION

[BradC]

For post #421 you show again you focus on the physical and not the spiritual.

The passing through the cloud and in the sea is symbolic for the Spirit and the water of the new covenant born again by baptism process. You don't want to see that spiritual aspect though as you want to focus just on the physical action that was done.

Hebrews 3 is using the Exodus as an example for us to go by as well, just as the Apostle Jude also does in his epistle. The writer of Hebrews shows how they were made to wander in the wilderness because of their unbelief instead of being taken directly to the promise land, and says for us to take heed so that we don't have a unbelieving heart as well that will lead to no salvation.

A true faith has obedience and disobedience is called unbelief !!!


Now as for this post #422 you do realize the baptized into Moses was symbolic of our baptized into Christ, not that they were actually baptized into Moses ???

Then you give a link that all it does is take us to another thread started by you, should we believe you or should we believe what the Apostle Peter said and how he confirmed water baptism into Christ name more than once ???

The things of the OT were shadows/symbolism for what was to come in the New Covenant, as yes the Word, and you do realize that through the Word means by doing as written that the Lord taught/commanded ???

Being washed by the word does not mean you are cleansed just by reading the scriptures, it means you trust and follow in what it says because it comes from the Lord our God.

Do you realize that only Joshua and Caleb were the only two from that generation delivered from Egypt who entered the promised land? The rest of that generation died in the wilderness. Not even Moses entered in but looked at it from afar. Did you also know that David was not able to build the temple but instructed his son Solomon, the son of Bathsheba and David. Were these who perished in the wilderness, both Aaron and Miriam in that number, also unable to see the salvation of the Lord? Was David also disqualified from salvation because he shed too much blood and was not allowed to build the holy temple? Who was Moses and David baptized unto?

David multiplied wives which kings were forbidden to do, he committed adultery with a woman, had her husband murdered in battle and had a child out of wedlock who was taken from him through death and he shed too much blood but was a man after God's own heart and fulfilled all of God's will. Explain that in terms of salvation. You want to put a premium on water baptism as a prerequisite for salvation and the keeping of the commandments and solicit the doctrine of salvation upon these two pillars of truth. Do you not even understand that laws are not needed in order for a transgression to take place. David mentions presumptuous sins among secret faults as a great transgression (Ps 19:12,13).

 

[P1LGR1M]

Certainly christians who depart this earth are not dead from Gods point of view:
I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word he will never see death john 8:51
Only the physical body dies

Both Christians and unbelievers who die at this point share in that unending existence which is spiritual. Doesn't mean we equate that existence.

And when we consider the Old Testament Saint, especially when someone tries to impose eternal life on Elijah and Moses because they are "alive" spiritually, we can easily see the breakdown of reason and a sound approach to the Bible. If we say they have eternal life apart from the Cross, then we might well reconsider rebuking those who teach Universal Salvation, because if spiritual existence equates to eternal life...Christ is dead in vain.

But we know He is not, for He is the True Bread which came down from Heaven to bestow eternal life to those who would believe the Gospel.

The writer of Hebrews makes it clear that turning to Christ brings about perfection, completion, which was not present in the Old Testament Economies:


Hebrews 11:13

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.



Hebrews 11:39-40

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]39 [/SUP]And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

[SUP]40 [/SUP]God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Hebrews 12:22-24

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

[SUP]23 [/SUP]To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

[SUP]24 [/SUP]And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


All of the Elect of all Redemptive Eras are ultimately of that singular Fold having but One Shepherd. But, if we fail to distinguish between the physical/temporal and the Spiritual/Eternal in Scripture, we will merge and blend doctrines and concepts and create a hybrid unrecognizable to anyone but the one that has created it and his adherents.

Systematic Theology? Or systematic dismantling of Basic Bible Doctrines which have allowed for division in the Body for Millennia. Some of these misconceptions are easily reconciled if we but place Redemptive History in it's appropriate Redemptive TimeLine. That means we do not have Abraham preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and we do not have Born Again Believers under the Covenant of Law.


And I think I will just take a break from this until someone actually has a relevant post to the issue of the Lordship/No-Lordship Salvation Controversy.


God bless.

 

[james57]

One judgement day for all(rev20:11-15)
The dead in Christ(those who have fallen asleep) will rise first(1thes4:16) hard to do if they already dwell with God in heaven

 

[KennethC]

The souls were UNDER the altar, they were not dwelling with God in heaven.
And I think your understanding of 2cor5:1-8 is wrong.

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying NOW(not before) the dwelling of God is with men rev21:3

There is much more that could be posted, but I am on a mobile, tomorrow I can copy/ paste

Not to mention those in Revelation 6:9 are those who are slain during the tribulation, so this is still a future event to take place.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Last off-topic post:

The souls were UNDER the altar, they were not dwelling with God in heaven.

Where exactly do you think Christ is when He opens the Seal Judgments? lol


Revelation 6

King James Version (KJV)
1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.


What Altar do you think is in view here...


[SUP]9[/SUP]And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


...?



[SUP]10 [/SUP]And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


Let's see the Martyrs again mentioned...


Revelation 7:9-14

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Now where is the Altar again? Where is Christ?

Where are the souls mentioned?

And I think your understanding of 2cor5:1-8 is wrong.

If you didn't like that, then you probably wouldn't like my commentary which teaches that in view is Paul's desire...to be Raptured.

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying NOW(not before) the dwelling of God is with men rev21:3

I didn't quote Revelation 21, but since you bring it up, can I ask how you have missed the fact that this is in a context of the Eternal State, where that which I quoted deals with Paul's day and the period of the Tribulation?

There is much more that could be posted, but I am on a mobile, tomorrow I can copy/ paste

Whereas I am done with the off-topics. I love then, don't get me wrong, but, New Birth and Baptismal Regeneration both have threads where this discussion would be more appropriate.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

And I just ask both the Lordship and No-Lordship Salvationists here...why you sit around and let people teach doctrines such as Soul Sleep and Annihilation without comment?

Amazing.


God bless.

 

[james57]

Both Christians and unbelievers who die at this point share in that unending existence which is spiritual. Doesn't mean we equate that existence.

And when we consider the Old Testament Saint, especially when someone tries to impose eternal life on Elijah and Moses because they are "alive" spiritually, we can easily see the breakdown of reason and a sound approach to the Bible. If we say they have eternal life apart from the Cross, then we might well reconsider rebuking those who teach Universal Salvation, because if spiritual existence equates to eternal life...Christ is dead in vain.

But we know He is not, for He is the True Bread which came down from Heaven to bestow eternal life to those who would believe the Gospel.

The writer of Hebrews makes it clear that turning to Christ brings about perfection, completion, which was not present in the Old Testament Economies:


Hebrews 11:13

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.



Hebrews 11:39-40

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]39 [/SUP]And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

[SUP]40 [/SUP]God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Hebrews 12:22-24

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

[SUP]23 [/SUP]To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

[SUP]24 [/SUP]And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


All of the Elect of all Redemptive Eras are ultimately of that singular Fold having but One Shepherd. But, if we fail to distinguish between the physical/temporal and the Spiritual/Eternal in Scripture, we will merge and blend doctrines and concepts and create a hybrid unrecognizable to anyone but the one that has created it and his adherents.

Systematic Theology? Or systematic dismantling of Basic Bible Doctrines which have allowed for division in the Body for Millennia. Some of these misconceptions are easily reconciled if we but place Redemptive History in it's appropriate Redemptive TimeLine. That means we do not have Abraham preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and we do not have Born Again Believers under the Covenant of Law.


And I think I will just take a break from this until someone actually has a relevant post to the issue of the Lordship/No-Lordship Salvation Controversy.


God bless.

Ok, I understand now what lordship salvation is. I have no problem with preaching the converts life must change and them grow evermore in holiness. Who could disagree with that?
But I am afraid I have found far too many churches that preach holiness and obedience without alongside that forthrightly and plainly preaching Paul's gospel message of grace. You see the core of Paul's message could be summed up ad
Sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace rom 6:14
Far too many churches stress holy living without giving people the instruction on how to achieve it. Indeed, there are very few ministers(I could count them on one hand that I know of who preach holy living earnestly and Paul's gospel message of how sin I to be overcome alongside it
At first glance the two are completely opposed to each other. Why would some who has a law of righteousness removed from them(the penalty of sin) live a holier life? Most believe you will use such knowledge as a licence to sin. So most ministers won't preach it. And yet, according to Paul in Tha knowledge I victory over sin
I know of christian counsellors who spend much Tim with people who's lives have been ruined by going to churches Tha stressed holy living but didn't tell them scripturally how this was to be achieved. They simply ended up worse sinners, as I did for I was one of them who went to a church that stressed holy living but didn't fully preach the truth of grace alongside it. And so I tried to have a righteousness before God of observing the law. What was the result for ne and many others? Romans 7:7-11
So I say by all means preach lordship salvation BUT ONLY if you fully and forthrightly preach the message alongside it that changed the worst of sinners into the greatest preacher of grace Thi world had ever seen

 

[KennethC]

Do you realize that only Joshua and Caleb were the only two from that generation delivered from Egypt who entered the promised land? The rest of that generation died in the wilderness. Not even Moses entered in but looked at it from afar. Did you also know that David was not able to build the temple but instructed his son Solomon, the son of Bathsheba and David. Were these who perished in the wilderness, both Aaron and Miriam in that number, also unable to see the salvation of the Lord? Was David also disqualified from salvation because he shed too much blood and was not allowed to build the holy temple? Who was Moses and David baptized unto?

David multiplied wives which kings were forbidden to do, he committed adultery with a woman, had her husband murdered in battle and had a child out of wedlock who was taken from him through death and he shed too much blood but was a man after God's own heart and fulfilled all of God's will. Explain that in terms of salvation. You want to put a premium on water baptism as a prerequisite for salvation and the keeping of the commandments and solicit the doctrine of salvation upon these two pillars of truth. Do you not even understand that laws are not needed in order for a transgression to take place. David mentions presumptuous sins among secret faults as a great transgression (Ps 19:12,13).

You are still mentioning cases where when these people sinned they repented !!!

Therefore of course it did not cost them salvation so your examples are mute points, as they are not examples of those who continue to live deliberate sinful lives. Also they were punished with consequences for their sins which is why they were not allowed in the promise land, or had their child taken, and so forth........

 

[Hoffco]

To many of you associate our believing as our new birth, that we get saved, born again by our faith; This is false and leads to much,many false christians, still lost ,but believing on Jesus. This has been he greatest error of the last century of christianity. This "free will", "faith alone" salvation has deceived millions. We are born again, by God's power, as we believe and ask for God's to "save" us, "make us alive" with the new birth. "But God"... "made us alive" Eph.2:4-5 = Regeneration; and"made us to be setted...in Christ Jesus"= Justification. Eph.2:6 see also the new birth in Rom.6:22 "But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life." Must of you don't allow God do do the saving; God's power produces in us saving faith and saving works. And if you object to see faith and works put together, you DON"T know true Lordship salvation and Saviourship know salvation. Love Hofco

 

[Magenta]

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

 

[KennethC]

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Here again we have the word "BELIEVE" in this scripture, and our Lord Jesus tells us exactly what it means to believe in Him.

He says and shows in both John 3:21 and Luke 6:46-49 that it is those who not only come and hear what He said, but those who also do what He said.

 

[BradC]

You are still mentioning cases where when these people sinned they repented !!!

Therefore of course it did not cost them salvation so your examples are mute points, as they are not examples of those who continue to live deliberate sinful lives. Also they were punished with consequences for their sins which is why they were not allowed in the promise land, or had their child taken, and so forth........

You are being careless and presumptuous with attributing repentance in these cases. David did not and could not repent of the blood he shed on the battlefield and realized he would not be the one to build the temple. Moses could not repent of striking the rock and was kept from entering the promise land. Miriam criticized and murmured against her brother Moses for marrying an Ethiopian woman, she could not repent and was sent outside the camp for (7) days with leprosy. (1 Cor 1:10) is not to be understood as you have presumed but rather as an example and admonition of what we should flee lest these things happen to us also.

BTW - The people delivered from Egypt were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea. A man who had been guilty of murder but chosen and called of God and God spoke with him face to face from the mercy seat. There is no record of Moses repenting but he acknowledged what he had done, just like David did. This baptism was literal immersing into a man and through the words he spoke to the people who all drank from the same spiritual rock, Christ. Tell me what the symbolism is in that. I see that we are to pray for those who have the rule over us and those who have to give an account for our souls (1 Thes 5:12, 1 Tim 5:17, Heb 13: 7, 17, 24). And it is all NT covenant that started with the disciples, who became apostles and were the first to be given to the church according to (Eph 4:11-16).

 

[P1LGR1M]

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Did He not also say...


Luke 13

King James Version (KJV)
1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

[SUP]3 [/SUP]I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

[SUP]5 [/SUP]I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.




As well as...


Mark 2:17

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Did not Paul say...


2 Corinthians 12:20-21

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]20 [/SUP]For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.


And James say...


James 2:19

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

So what does it mean to "Believe in the One that He has sent?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I see that we are to pray for those who have the rule over us and those who have to give an account for our souls (1 Thes 5:12, 1 Tim 5:17, Heb 13: 7, 17, 24). And it is all NT covenant that started with the disciples, who became apostles and were the first to be given to the church according to (Eph 4:11-16).

Just wanted to post the last reference you gave:


Ephesians 4:11-16

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

[SUP]15 [/SUP]But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.



This is a good point, and we see the same distinction made by Peter:


2 Peter 2

King James Version (KJV)
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


This shows a distinction between the Economies of the Old Testament and the Church Age. Peter distinguishes between prophets and teachers.

This distinction is also seen here:


Hebrews 1:1-2

King James Version (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;



God bless.

 

[james57]

I've been chatting to a chap on another website who believes Christ is the end of the mosaic law unto righteousness, not the ten commandments.
Another one of those eresies eh pilgrim

 

[KennethC]

BradC part of repentance is acknowledging the wrongs we have done, also read Jude and Exodus 32:33 as you will see those who were delivered from Egypt that later turned their back on God were destroyed by Him and blotted out of the Book of Life !!!

 

[KennethC]

I've been chatting to a chap on another website who believes Christ is the end of the mosaic law unto righteousness, not the ten commandments.
Another one of those eresies eh pilgrim

It was the written ordinances that were blotted out..........Not God's moral law !!!

 

[james57]

It was the written ordinances that were blotted out..........Not God's moral law !!!

So to be clear. In your opinion, when Paul states Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness he was not referring to the ten commandments?

 

[KennethC]

So to be clear. In your opinion, when Paul states Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness he was not referring to the ten commandments?

He was speaking of them only in the written form of ordinances that required punishment (curse) for breaking them, and that punishment in most cases was to be put to death.

I can show you a chart that has the places where the 10 Commandments are upheld in the NT if you wish ???

God's moral law is what is stated as written in our hearts and minds, and upheld by walking in love.

 

[james57]

He was speaking of them only in the written form of ordinances that required punishment (curse) for breaking them, and that punishment in most cases was to be put to death.

I can show you a chart that has the places where the 10 Commandments are upheld in the NT if you wish ???

God's moral law is what is stated as written in our hearts and minds, and upheld by walking in love.

I don't dispute the ten commandments are on our heart and mind but Christ is still the end of the whole law unto righteousness, including the ten commandments