LORDSHIP SALVATION

[Gr8grace]

Well, round & round we go about the lordship salvation issue, a belief that's been in the scriptures all along. No, Johnny Mac didn't create it, he just labeled it.

This is somewhat like it was in Jesus' day..... People wanting everything under the sun from Jesus, yet the majority of His day wouldn't let Him be Lord of their lives, either. They believed in Jesus until He required something of them.....to take up their cross & follow Him.

Those that refuses Jesus' Lordship & His Kingship cannot be His disciple. He stated plainly that those that won't take up their cross & follow Him CANNOT be His disciple.

Luke 14:25-33 (NASB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them, [SUP]26 [/SUP]"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. [SUP]27 [/SUP]"Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. [SUP]28 [/SUP]"For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? [SUP]29 [/SUP]"Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, [SUP]30 [/SUP]saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.' [SUP]31 [/SUP]"Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand? [SUP]32 [/SUP]"Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. [SUP]33 [/SUP]"So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

Those of you seriously contemplating believing non-Lordship need to quit believing what you hear & read your Bibles. Some need to repent for spreading such garbage. Others need to repent for letting your egos get the best of you, thinking winning this discussion is a sure thing, when it never was.

Have we forgotten so easily the simple scripture, "you'll know them by their fruits"? Arrogance, pride & superiority complexes aren't the traits of a true disciple. They are of their father, the devil. One's bad fruits determine the side they're on, as well as where they're heading..... to Hell.

Having open forum discussions with the Devil's disciples isn't exactly letting our lights shine for Jesus, either.

We're in the last days..... of course the church majority will refuse their Lord & King, it must come to pass. It's easy to accept a god that doesn't demand holiness..... that will let its subjects live a false life of believing without proof..... a salvation that demands no cross to carry, no obedience whatsoever, just a "saying faith" in another Jesus, another gospel, another faith, another salvation.

Does anybody notice that many "christians" in the BDF will all gang together against those that really believe in the Lordship of Christ, yet will not argue against each other's false doctrine?

Remember how the false religionists of Jesus' day persistantly argued against the Son of God, holy & blameless? Now, look at today's liberal church. Who are they arguing with? There's nothing new under the sun.....

Those that make their loud, arrogant claims to righteousness have nothing..... Those who humbly submit to their King of kings & Lord of lords, believing He is exactly that, have everything. He gives them power to become the Sons of God.

Lordship salvation~~If after we believe(epignosis knowledge and trust) we go the opposite direction........we are still saved because HE IS LORD.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Lordship salvation~~If after we believe(epignosis knowledge and trust) we go the opposite direction........we are still saved because HE IS LORD.

And that is exactly what all Lordship Salvation that has been spoken of here by those who acknowledge Lordship Salvation have said.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

No christian can sin without conscience. They cannot happily use grace as a licence to sin, for they have been born again of the spirit, the law has been placed on their heart. Therefore when they err they suffer in their heart by doing so. The covenant comes in two core parts, being born again cuts out the licence to sin. Hence Jesus words to nicodemus:
Ye MUST be born again

I would disagree with that: just because a person is confused about Biblical Doctrine and sincerely believes they are preaching a Pure Gospel does not mean that they are not sinning by assuming the role of teacher or preacher and teaching false doctrines.

You are teaching a false doctrine by saying that believers never sin because they have the Law of God written on their heart.

All believers start out as babes, and are in need of the preachers and teachers God has placed in the Body for the specific intent of teaching new believers all that Christ commanded, whether those commands were spoken in the Old Testament, by Christ personally, or through the Apostles.

Was Paul wrong to identify Peter's denial of the One Man when he confronted Peter about his hypocrisy? Was Peter guiltless? Did he really not know that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek?

He knew, but sinned anyway. He let what others think impact his obedience to God.

And you have some kind of hang-up about license to sin, don't you.


God bless.

 

[james57]

You are teaching a false doctrine by saying that believers never sin because they have the Law of God written on their heart.


.

Well I would be if I actually said it! Perhaps you could bring forth my post where I stated the above? If you cannot I am sure you will apologise for bearing false witness against me

 

[james57]

I would disagree with that: just because a person is confused about Biblical Doctrine and sincerely believes they are preaching a Pure Gospel does not mean that they are not sinning by assuming the role of teacher or preacher and teaching false doctrines.

You are teaching a false doctrine by saying that believers never sin because they have the Law of God written on their heart.

All believers start out as babes, and are in need of the preachers and teachers God has placed in the Body for the specific intent of teaching new believers all that Christ commanded, whether those commands were spoken in the Old Testament, by Christ personally, or through the Apostles.

Was Paul wrong to identify Peter's denial of the One Man when he confronted Peter about his hypocrisy? Was Peter guiltless? Did he really not know that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek?

He knew, but sinned anyway. He let what others think impact his obedience to God.

And you have some kind of hang-up about license to sin, don't you.


God bless.

Perhaps you could be specific as to what you disagree with that is actually written in the following
God Bless:

No christian can sin without conscience. They cannot happily use grace as a licence to sin, for they have been born again of the spirit, the law has been placed on their heart. Therefore when they err they suffer in their heart by doing so. The covenant comes in two core parts, being born again cuts out the licence to sin. Hence Jesus words to nicodemus:
Ye MUST be born again

 

[P1LGR1M]

I'd never for a moment see the work of salvation on an intellectual plane...but for those who are perplexed about their salvation may worry that they have not 'made Jesus Lord enough'. Babes in Christ could fall prey to despair with that type of language.

Believers should worry about their relationship to Christ if their lives are questionable. For the believer it will strengthen resolve to live holy. For the unbeliever it may be a matter that they are still in the process of being brought to conviction by the Holy Spirit.

2 Corinthians 13:5

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?



2 Peter 1:10

King James Version (KJV)



[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

I'd never for a moment see the work of salvation on an intellectual plane...but for those who are perplexed about their salvation may worry that they have not 'made Jesus Lord enough'. Babes in Christ could fall prey to despair with that type of language.

Repentance is no more on an intellectual plane than crying in a sad movie is. It is a result of the Work God continues to do in the lives of believers, and we would do well not to quench the Holy Spirit by comforting either believers or unbelievers in their sin.


Galatians 6:1

King James Version (KJV)

1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.


I for one have been grateful to those who have had a hand in dealing with the errors I have committed. Whether these errors were doctrinal or practical there have been many brothers and sisters who have helped me in my walk by pointing out error.

It is a far worse thing to inadvertently condone sin by acts of omission which instead of pointing out error we perceive, we simply leave that person in that state of sin or error.

Paul didn't seem to worry about being clear what is sin and contrary to Christian Conduct. This is why our understanding has to balance the evidences of true confession with the understanding of the growth process in the lives of all believers. Lordship Salvation does not demand perfection from believers, merely the examination of self in light of Scripture. That is a pattern throughout all of Scripture, and was not removed by the establishing of the New Covenant.

True faith will not be divorced from repentance, and salvation will not lack growth. When these are missing there is good reason for someone to be concerned, first the one with the concern, and secondly those who actually care.

No-Lordship evidences hatred and disinterest in the lives of others, and promotes easy believism.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Perhaps you could be specific as to what you disagree with that is actually written in the following
God Bless:

No christian can sin without conscience. They cannot happily use grace as a licence to sin, for they have been born again of the spirit, the law has been placed on their heart. Therefore when they err they suffer in their heart by doing so. The covenant comes in two core parts, being born again cuts out the licence to sin. Hence Jesus words to nicodemus:
Ye MUST be born again

I defined what I disagreed with. But, I will help you better understand what I see as error:

No christian can sin without conscience.

Sure they can, because many are sincere in their beliefs yet that does not leave them without culpability for sin.

The one teaching, for example, that salvation can be lost...can believe they teach sound doctrine.

They don't. They corrupt Biblical Doctrine.

Is that sin?

Are they sinning with a clear conscience? Yes.


God bless.

 

[james57]

.

And you have some kind of hang-up about license to sin, don't you.


God bless.

No. I wrote of it in the other thread for your benefit. When I stated yesterday Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness(including the moral law) you queried a few of my subsequent posts, so I thought it good to reassure you the truth of the covenant cuts such a licence out. I assumed you didn't know why there can be no licence to sin under the new covenant

 

[P1LGR1M]

Well I would be if I actually said it! Perhaps you could bring forth my post where I stated the above? If you cannot I am sure you will apologise for bearing false witness against me

Originally Posted by james57

No christian can sin without conscience. They cannot happily use grace as a licence to sin, for they have been born again of the spirit, the law has been placed on their heart.

No apology will be extended, you are teaching a false doctrine that establishes it is impossible to sin without the conscience being affected. That is incorrect.


God bless.

 

[james57]

I defined what I disagreed with. But, I will help you better understand what I see as error:




Sure they can, because many are sincere in their beliefs yet that does not leave them without culpability for sin.

The one teaching, for example, that salvation can be lost...can believe they teach sound doctrine.

They don't. They corrupt Biblical Doctrine.

Is that sin?

Are they sinning with a clear conscience? Yes.


God bless.

You appear to be struggling to understand the new covenant, which may well be why I am receiving some of the comments I am from you.

Sin is transgression of the law 1John 3:4

If the law God requires you to keep is written on your mind and placed on your heart you must know what that law is. Therefore a Christian must have heartfelt conviction they sin when they break the law placed on their heart.
Your idea concerning some things you see as sins may not be God's

 

[james57]

I
You are teaching a false doctrine by saying that believers never sin because they have the Law of God written on their heart.

.

Just to be clear here. I have not stated the above, you can produce no post of mine where the above is stated, therefore you are bearing false witness against me. You are committing sin are you not?
How does someone who believes in Lordship salvation react when they are shown they have born false witness against someone?
They appear not to care and refuse to apologise

 

[P1LGR1M]

No. I wrote of it in the other thread for your benefit. When I stated yesterday Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness(including the moral law) you queried a few of my subsequent posts, so I thought it good to reassure you the truth of the covenant cuts such a licence out. I assumed you didn't know why there can be no licence to sin under the new covenant

Well I am flattered you are following me around because it is important that I accept your beliefs.



Assumption is a killer, and will only get you in trouble. Not sure why you would think (1) I am not familiar with a license to sin mentality when that is the underlying premise to No-Lordship theology, or (2) why you would think what I have been speaking about in this thread does not address that error.

I'll tell you why...because you are only interested in speaking at people, not actually getting involved in what is being discussed. If you would review the thread you would see that your statements are ridiculous, and only serve to make this discussion as circular as the No-Lordship Movement Camp has made it.

So stop assuming, my friend, and then perhaps someone might have an interest in what you are saying.


God bless.

 

[james57]

Well I am flattered you are following me around because it is important that I accept your beliefs.



Assumption is a killer, and will only get you in trouble. Not sure why you would think (1) I am not familiar with a license to sin mentality when that is the underlying premise to No-Lordship theology, or (2) why you would think what I have been speaking about in this thread does not address that error.

I'll tell you why...because you are only interested in speaking at people, not actually getting involved in what is being discussed. If you would review the thread you would see that your statements are ridiculous, and only serve to make this discussion as circular as the No-Lordship Movement Camp has made it.

So stop assuming, my friend, and then perhaps someone might have an interest in what you are saying.


God bless.

No, I think you may have become upset because you are a bit lost on this subject.

 

[james57]

No apology will be extended, you are teaching a false doctrine that establishes it is impossible to sin without the conscience being affected. That is incorrect.


God bless.

Well it does appear you are able to sin without conscience, for you refuse to apologise when you know you have born false witness against me

 

[P1LGR1M]

Just to be clear here. I have not stated the above, you can produce no post of mine where the above is statted,

Originally Posted by james57

No christian can sin without conscience. They cannot happily use grace as a licence to sin, for they have been born again of the spirit, the law has been placed on their heart.

You want to tell me you do not recognize that Christians can sin without conscience?

Do so, then at the very least you will justify your view that I am sinning against you by declaring your statement a false teaching, and that how I defined your doctrine...

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

You are teaching a false doctrine by saying that believers never sin because they have the Law of God written on their heart.

...does not correctly identify what you are teaching.

therefore you are4 bearing false witness against me.

But my conscience is clear of your charge, I don't see it as you do, but see it as rightly identifying false doctrine.

You are committing sin are you not?

If I am, it further illustrates...

...I am right. lol

Don't you understand that if you are correct, then I am sinning, not intentionally, but with a clear conscience?

It creates a paradox for you, my friend, so instead of assuming you are right, give it a little thought.

How does someone who believes in Lordship salvation react when they are shown they have born false witness against someone?

And this is truly false witness, which you have no excuse for, because enough has been posted in this thread that shows that Lordship Salvation is not a matter of ruthless demand of the believer, and the only license for sin that can be associated to this discussion is the error of the No-Lordship Movement, not those teaching Lordship Salvation.

You err greatly because of your assumption. And in your ignorance of Lordship Salvation you compound your error to bear false witness about a teaching you know nothing about.

Show works-based salvation or license to sin in anything I have taught or anything I have posted from MacArthur's site.

They appear not to care and refuse to apologise

I don't mind apologizing, but I see no need to apologizer for addressing your

erroneous teaching:

Originally Posted by james57

No christian can sin without conscience. They cannot happily use grace as a licence to sin, for they have been born again of the spirit, the law has been placed on their heart.

Again, your teaching is muddled, you do not even understand what you are addressing, and you address it with erroneous concepts you have concocted in your musings, rather than a proper exegesis of the Word of God.

The No-Lordship Movement expresses concern for those poor Christians who might...end up being concerned that they have not "made Jesus Lord enough."

That's a healthy fear for a Christian.

Now, if we could just get that fear to coincide with the loose handling of Biblical Doctrine, we might be able to sort our way through the muddy waters stirred up by teachers like you, who, like several in this thread, have erroneously charged certain teachers with false accusations which the teachings make clear are false.

Originally Posted by james57

No christian can sin without conscience. They cannot happily use grace as a licence to sin, for they have been born again of the spirit, the law has been placed on their heart.

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

You are teaching a false doctrine by saying that believers never sin because they have the Law of God written on their heart.

Now, I have only one question for you: do you still maintain that Christians cannot sin without Conscience because they have the Law of God written on their heart?

I reiterate...they can, and do.

If I am guilty of sin against you, I can tell you...my conscience is clear. So if I am guilty of sin against you...it only serves to make my point that much stronger.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

No, I think you may have become upset because you are a bit lost on this subject.

Upset? lol

My friend, you simply do not know how humorous your posts are.


God bless.

 

[ember]

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

You are teaching a false doctrine by saying that believers never sin because they have the Law of God written on their heart.

that is simple rubbish

No one here has EVER stated that we do not sin ever again

You are sinning right now because you know very well no one has said that

This entire thread is filled with false allegations and twisted words...all compliments of you

been away...what? almost a week now? and you are still doing the same thing

childish and immature does not even begin to describe the actions of someone who choose falsehood as defense rather than admit that they may have it wrong

If Jesus is your Lord, why do keep saying false things about other posters

ps...I know full well I will only get a nonsensical false post from you...which is why I stopped posting any response to you in the first place, but this is for the benefit of those who prefer the truth and may be reading...which also means I will not respond to you because it is a waste of time...you are actually constantly trying to put folks on the defense because you cannot refute the truth that they post concerning the false teaching of two tier salvation

you are more than a little aggresive...you seem to be fashionning yourself along the lines of a covert-aggresive...you hide behind your twisting of the word and shoot at people while pretending you are all about the truth when you are actually all about power and dominating others

you are not a very good witness my friend...not all!

 

[P1LGR1M]

Well it does appear you are able to sin without conscience, for you refuse to apologise when you know you have born false witness against me

If this is true, it only serves to make my point and show your error in your statement.

You are creating that very issue the No-Lordship Movement worries about.

If you do not properly explain to the new believer that there are going to be times they sin and that this is normal in the growth process, you are going to create a false understanding of salvation. If someone is told "You will not sin without conscience" and then they do...they are likely to deny everything else in their lives which points to the fact that they are a new creature.

You illustrate the proverbial saying, "They know just enough to be dangerous."


God bless.

 

[james57]

You want to tell me you do not recognize that Christians can sin without conscience?

Do so, then at the very least you will justify your view that I am sinning against you by declaring your statement a false teaching, and that how I defined your doctrine...





...does not correctly identify what you are teaching.




But my conscience is clear of your charge, I don't see it as you do, but see it as rightly identifying false doctrine.




If I am, it further illustrates...

...I am right. lol

Don't you understand that if you are correct, then I am sinning, not intentionally, but with a clear conscience?

It creates a paradox for you, my friend, so instead of assuming you are right, give it a little thought.





And this is truly false witness, which you have no excuse for, because enough has been posted in this thread that shows that Lordship Salvation is not a matter of ruthless demand of the believer, and the only license for sin that can be associated to this discussion is the error of the No-Lordship Movement, not those teaching Lordship Salvation.

You err greatly because of your assumption. And in your ignorance of Lordship Salvation you compound your error to bear false witness about a teaching you know nothing about.

Show works-based salvation or license to sin in anything I have taught or anything I have posted from MacArthur's site.




I don't mind apologizing, but I see no need to apologizer for addressing your


Again, your teaching is muddled, you do not even understand what you are addressing, and you address it with erroneous concepts you have concocted in your musings, rather than a proper exegesis of the Word of God.

The No-Lordship Movement expresses concern for those poor Christians who might...end up being concerned that they have not "made Jesus Lord enough."

That's a healthy fear for a Christian.

Now, if we could just get that fear to coincide with the loose handling of Biblical Doctrine, we might be able to sort our way through the muddy waters stirred up by teachers like you, who, like several in this thread, have erroneously charged certain teachers with false accusations which the teachings make clear are false.









Now, I have only one question for you: do you still maintain that Christians cannot sin without Conscience because they have the Law of God written on their heart?

I reiterate...they can, and do.

If I am guilty of sin against you, I can tell you...my conscience is clear. So if I am guilty of sin against you...it only serves to make my point that much stronger.


God bless.

I don't know, trying to excuse your sin now. It has always been the same. So often those who preach righteous living most earnestly, are those who give plain evidence they do not follow what they preach
Im not really interested in reading all you wrote. You clearly do not understand grace as you would like to think you do, and this has got you rather rattled it seems.
I have met so many like you, huge studying, but when it come to understanding the core of grace Paul preached you flounder.
I know a truly born again Christian cannot go against the law placed on their heart without being conscious of sin
However, you seem at a loss to answer the one question I asked you. I will withdraw from this discussion, if I remain I will probably only find you will continue to bear false witness against me(sin) while justifying doing so. That is Antinomianism isn't it?(or something like that)
Well thanks for showing me an example of someone who believes in Lordship salvation

 

[james57]

If this is true, it only serves to make my point and show your error in your statement.

You are creating that very issue the No-Lordship Movement worries about.

If you do not properly explain to the new believer that there are going to be times they sin and that this is normal in the growth process, you are going to create a false understanding of salvation. If someone is told "You will not sin without conscience" and then they do...they are likely to deny everything else in their lives which points to the fact that they are a new creature.

You illustrate the proverbial saying, "They know just enough to be dangerous."


God bless.

Lets see how much you understand of what you are talking of. Please explain to me line by liner the following.


We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles [SUP]16 [/SUP]know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[SUP][d][/SUP] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.[SUP]17 [/SUP]“But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! [SUP]18 [/SUP]If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker Gal2:15-18