LORDSHIP SALVATION

[P1LGR1M]

As I said, ...

I'd never for a moment see the work of salvation on an intellectual plane...but for those who are perplexed about their salvation may worry that they have not 'made Jesus Lord enough'. Babes in Christ could fall prey to despair with that type of language.

You needn't be overly concerned:


1 Peter 1:3-5

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

[SUP]4 [/SUP]To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,


[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


Philippians 1:6

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:


Hebrews 12:2

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.



God is perfectly capable of shepherding His flock.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

2 Cor 4:7-12

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10 ALWAYS BEARING ABOUT IN THE BODY THE DYING OF THE LORD JESUS, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11 For we which live are ALWAYS DELIVERED UNTO DEATH for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
12 So then DEATH WORKETH IN US, but life in you.

John 12:24,25

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: BUT IF IT DIE, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Mt 10:34-39

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Phil 3:7-10

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

You are free to live a "crucified life" if you like, my friend.


God bless.

 

[BradC]

You are free to live a "crucified life" if you like, my friend.


God bless.

Do these scriptures have no place in our life as a believer? Do we push them off onto only the apostles or do we acknowledge the plan of God and the details that God brings us into that delivers us unto death for Jesus sake? We have to lose our self life in this world that we might find the life that God delivers us unto through death. He must increase and I must decrease or lose my life that I might find it unto eternal life.

 

[KennethC]

I do place you in that "someone." It is my opinion and it is based off of what you type. I don't think I am wrong, but I could be.

But hey, we are to rebuke and correct brothers right?

I personally believe you are saved and have forgotten His true Grace. I know you think that it is "Me against you", but I truly want you to have the crowns and reign and rewards that are offered to believers that live in a secure salvation because of the character and nature of Christ.

We lose these rewards,reign and crowns if we believe salvation is based on how well we did or how our character and nature changed enough to gain it or maintain it.

And those rewards,reign, crowns are ultimately for us to throw at His Feet.

Ken, if there is even a HINT of doing these works and deeds for salvation or to maintain salvation...............they are dead works and will be burned up. We are still going to heaven, but we will not glorify the Lord in ANY of our deeds.

I haven't forgotten His true grace at all, for His grace does not allow lewdness/deliberate sinful behavior/lawlessness to continue in our lives.

Those who believe it does or thinks we will never change (be changed) and still remain acting the same as we did before we were born again is in for a rude awakening !!!

Jude 1:4 clearly says such are marked for condemnation !!!

Try to do away with the scriptures that speak on falling away, apostasy, and those who fall back to perdition if you would like but I will not.

Dead works are referring to works of the law or things done for self, not things done in His righteousness.

The scriptures even state that God is not unjust to forget our works/deeds, and says we will receive rewards. Why would we receive rewards if works are dead or flithy rags ??? Probably because the misconception comes in how one was taught about works as there is two kinds: Self works rather righteous or unrighteous vs. His righteous works done in our lives !!!

 

[james57]

Do these scriptures have no place in our life as a believer? Do we push them off onto only the apostles or do we acknowledge the plan of God and the details that God brings us into that delivers us unto death for Jesus sake? We have to lose our self life in this world that we might find the life that God delivers us unto through death. He must increase and I must decrease or lose my life that I might find it unto eternal life.

If I may. You are looking at it from a spiritual point of view, not a theological point of view, there is a difference
God bless

 

[P1LGR1M]

Do these scriptures have no place in our life as a believer? Do we push them off onto only the apostles or do we acknowledge the plan of God and the details that God brings us into that delivers us unto death for Jesus sake? We have to lose our self life in this world that we might find the life that God delivers us unto through death. He must increase and I must decrease or lose my life that I might find it unto eternal life.

2 Cor 4:7-12

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;


Does this describe your life? If so, could you give me some examples of how you are troubled on every side, perplexed, persecuted, and cast down?


God bless.

 

[BradC]

If I may. You are looking at it from a spiritual point of view, not a theological point of view, there is a difference
God bless

If you would, please explain the difference, thank you.

 

[P1LGR1M]

If you would, please explain the difference, thank you.

I'll take a stab at it, though I use my own view and do not speak for anyone else.

Spiritually, we can say we have died with Christ, yet Theologically the New Testament is clear that Christ, and Christ alone died for our sins.

Paul does not equate our lives being on a par with the Work of Christ.

Spiritually speaking we are buried with Christ, but Theologically speaking no man lay in that tomb with the Lord.

Now would you answer my post (#606)?


God bless.

 

[james57]

If you would, please explain the difference, thank you.

On the internet you find many with a 'theological knowledge' based on extensive reading of the bible(and other books). But it is predominantly academically driven.
Others have heartfelt spiritual knowledge, based on the Holy Spirit guiding them into truth.
The one with the ''theological' mind set does not completely rely on the Holy Spirit, whereas the one with the spiritual mindset does.

 

[BradC]

2 Cor 4:7-12

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;


Does this describe your life? If so, could you give me some examples of how you are troubled on every side, perplexed, persecuted, and cast down?


God bless.

It depends upon what God calls us to do. If we respond to that call, then God will give us grace and equip us for that godly calling. As we fulfill that calling we will suffer persecution. Our calling will have a cross that we must take up that denies self and makes no provision for the flesh. Those who live in the flesh will react and come against the one who has been called. Every calling that comes from God is supernatural and the natural carnal man will resist it because they are at enmity with God. God uses the carnal man and his enmity to work death within so that the sweet savour of the life of Christ can be squeezed out from our earthen vessel. We must decrease and He must increase.

 

[P1LGR1M]

It depends upon what God calls us to do. If we respond to that call, then God will give us grace and equip us for that godly calling. As we fulfill that calling we will suffer persecution. Our calling will have a cross that we must take up that denies self and makes no provision for the flesh. Those who live in the flesh will react and come against the one who has been called. Every calling that comes from God is supernatural and the natural carnal man will resist it because they are at enmity with God. God uses the carnal man and his enmity to work death within so that the sweet savour of the life of Christ can be squeezed out from our earthen vessel. We must decrease and He must increase.

So more to the point what has God called you to do that you suffer trouble, perplexity, persecution, and casting down?


God bless.

 

[BradC]

So more to the point what has God called you to do that you suffer trouble, perplexity, persecution, and casting down?


God bless.

It starts in your own household and goes from there. You do what you can to live peaceably with all men but there will come a time when the sword takes over where there is no peace. Remember that we have peace THROUGH THE OLD BLOODY CROSS. We are to come out from among them and be separate. I am not talking about leaving families but I am talking about honoring the call of God regardless of what families think. That is a tough thing but we are to take up our cross to be worthy of Christ.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

i am not going to bother responding to the majority of your meandering long winded and mostly irrelevant post...instead i will just focus on the main point that needs to be discussed...

True faith is always accompanied by repentance from sin. Repentance is agreeing with God that you are sinful, confessing your sins to Him, and making a conscious choice to turn from sin (Luke 13:3, 5; 1 Thessalonians 1:9), pursue Christ (Matthew 11: 28-30; John 17:3), and obey Him (1 John 2:3). It isn't enough to believe certain facts about Christ. Even Satan and his demons believe in the true God (James 2:19), but they don't love and obey Him. True saving faith always responds in obedience (Ephesians 2:10).

Do you see a definition of repentance in there?

And I affirm what is said in this definition.

now that you have at least allowed someone less lazy to define repentance for you...we can go off of the quoted definition that you have affirmed...

now we can move on to the next important issue at the heart of the 'lordship salvation' debate...

namely exactly what degree of action is needed to satisfy these conditions of 'repentance'...

specifically...

exactly -how many- sins must be confessed in order to qualify as 'repentant'?
exactly -how successful- must the person be in carrying out their conscious choice to turn from sin in order to qualify as 'repentant'?
exactly -how diligent- must a person be in pursuing christ in order to qualify as 'repentant'?
exactly -how much- obedience is necessary in order for a person to qualify as 'repentant'?

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

You will have to admit that I have based on your own words:



I have.

Now we see the contradiction in your own testimony:




So again, I ask that you actually read the thread.

It will help you not to make statements which only serve to bring a legitimate charge of false witness against you.

Ignorance is never an excuse. People are convicted every day who are ignorant of the facts. And some are erroneously convicted due to lack of facts. You're charges might seem reasonable on the surface to those who also build their doctrines on circumstantial "evidence," but this does not excuse error when supplying testimony.


God bless.

there is not any real contradiction in the type of definition i asked for...

first you showed that you were under the impression that any long rant that doesn't actually address the meaning of the term to be defined but in which that term appears frequently and with emphasis qualifies as a 'definition'...

when i pointed out that you didn't define the term and instead merely posted an off topic essay in which the term was used frequently without definition...you were unable to recognize this...so i provided you with the simplest formula for a definition in order to make it easy for you...

you then tried to argue that you were using a less simplistic form of definition than the one i suggested...i acknowledged that it is possible to define terms by illustration as well...but in any case the point was irrelevant because you had not defined the term by illustration either...

anyway having said this for the record...i am not going to reply to any more of your diversionary tactics...i await your response to my other post...

 

[P1LGR1M]

It starts in your own household and goes from there. You do what you can to live peaceably with all men but there will come a time when the sword takes over where there is no peace. Remember that we have peace THROUGH THE OLD BLOODY CROSS. We are to come out from among them and be separate. I am not talking about leaving families but I am talking about honoring the call of God regardless of what families think. That is a tough thing but we are to take up our cross to be worthy of Christ.

You're dodging the question.

You liken what you do to that which you have quoted from Scripture, and the truth is that you are not likely suffering the persecution that those in Paul's day suffered, in which their very lives were at risk. Paul suffered for the Gospel, and for us to liken what we go through as "bearing our Cross" diminishes, in my view, the intensity of what that truly means.

So as I said, if you want to say you are living a "crucified life," I have no problem with that.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

i am not going to bother responding to the majority of your meandering long winded and mostly irrelevant post...instead i will just focus on the main point that needs to be discussed...

If you are going to cherry-pick you show that you are not willing to discuss the issues in detail.

Why would I bother to meet your demands when you disregard what I have to say?

So I will take your lead...and not waste my time.


God bless.

 

[BradC]

You're dodging the question.

You liken what you do to that which you have quoted from Scripture, and the truth is that you are not likely suffering the persecution that those in Paul's day suffered, in which their very lives were at risk. Paul suffered for the Gospel, and for us to liken what we go through as "bearing our Cross" diminishes, in my view, the intensity of what that truly means.

So as I said, if you want to say you are living a "crucified life," I have no problem with that.


God bless.

I am not referring to myself as you would like me to do. I AM referring to the examples we have in scriptures. You can presume what you like about me or another but that won't nullify what we see in the scriptures and body of truth concerning those who take up their cross and deny the flesh and respond to the plan and will of God by faith. Any man or woman who has been forgiven of sin and justified by faith and who has the indwelling Spirit to live godly in this present evil world, will suffer persecution among their former associates, the members of their household, their neighbor and from those in the world that live according to the lust of their eyes, the lusts of the flesh and according to the pride of life. They will judge according to the flesh and according to the deceitfulness of their own heart. I hope that we have taken up our cross and allowed death to be worked in, to lose our life so that we can judge righteously according to mercy and grace as a Spirit-filled believer and not as one who is carnally minded through the flesh.

As a member of Christ's body, we will all be judged at the bema seat of Christ according to mercy and the light of God's word and not according to the letter of the law. Here is a thought provoking concept of righteous judgement... the mercy seat is now the bema seat of Christ and from that place we will receive rewards or the loss thereof, but we will never be judged because of sin for sin was already judged on the cross. The believer will suffer loss because of sin (the works of the flesh) but will never suffer the second death and will be saved as by fire. Our first work is to believe upon the Son and concerning the work of the ministry we become a joint participant. That work is rooted in Christ and revealed by the Holy Spirit. As we are lead in that work it will be contrary to the corruption in this present evil world system and to the lusts of the flesh. Instead of clarifying our doctrine with the questions we ask of others, we just keep our eye single upon Christ, walk by faith in God's promises and love the brethren through a laid down life, then people will see whether our works are wrought in God or the flesh.

 

[KennethC]

We believers when we stand before Christ at the bema seat will be judged on how faithful we were !!!

 

[P1LGR1M]

True repentance can only take place when a person responds by faith and agrees with the light of God's conviction in their heart. This is how God turns us from ourselves and our sin unto Him and that is grace. To turn from what the old sin nature produces in our life through the flesh, it is going to take the cross (death) to do that and not some form of pseudo repentance or even obedience to the commandments. Many try to conform to what is right instead of being crucified in their experience that they might have life. Any form of repentance that does not include the cross, conviction of the Spirit and the grace of God is dead, just like the letter of the law. If any man wants Jesus to be the Lord of their life they must go to the cross and allow the death of the cross to be worked in so that the life of Christ can be made manifested in their mortal bodies. Before we can experience resurrection life their must be first a confrontation with death concerning all the desires, appetites and lusts of the flesh.

Just wanted to repost this so it can be examined in light of the position you are now presenting, which seems to be two different positions.

Does this statement imply you have yourself in view or not?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

It depends upon what God calls us to do. If we respond to that call, then God will give us grace and equip us for that godly calling. As we fulfill that calling we will suffer persecution. Our calling will have a cross that we must take up that denies self and makes no provision for the flesh. Those who live in the flesh will react and come against the one who has been called. Every calling that comes from God is supernatural and the natural carnal man will resist it because they are at enmity with God. God uses the carnal man and his enmity to work death within so that the sweet savour of the life of Christ can be squeezed out from our earthen vessel. We must decrease and He must increase.

Another post to justify the Scripture posted.

God bless.