The Catholics and my conclusion

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P1LGR1M

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Pilgrim

I think you seriously misunderstand the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

Let’s get to the bottom of it shall we?

The doctrine of the Trinity is not the doctrine that three Gods are somehow one God. That would be clearly self-contradictory – to say there are three Gods, and these are one God.

In other words the doctrine of the Trinity does not say that

GOD=GOD+GOD+GOD


Neither do Christians claim that there are three persons who are somehow one person. That, again, would be self-contradictory – to assert that there are three persons who are all one person.

In other words the doctrine of the Trinity does not assert that

PERSON= PERSON + PERSON + PERSON


The doctrine of the Trinity does not assert that there are three Gods that are one God or three persons that are one person, but

In other words the doctrine of the Trinity does not say that

GOD=GOD+GOD+GOD

and it does not say that

PERSON= PERSON + PERSON + PERSON


What does the doctrine of the Trinity say then?

The doctrine of the Trinity says that there is one God who is TRI-PERSONAL

In other words the doctrine of the Trinity claims that

GOD= PERSON + PERSON + PERSON


Let me give you analogy often used by Russian Orthodox Church. Think about a chicken Egg for a moment. What chicken Egg consists of? Well it’s consists of three bits namely Shell + Egg white + Yolk. But Egg is not three. Egg is 1. Exactly the same is with God. God is Father + Son + Holy Spirit. But God is not three. God is 1. I hope you get the idea.

Let me give you another analogy (which is slightly more complex)

Think about the soul. What is soul? The soul, or the mind, is not a physical thing – it is an immaterial or spiritual thing, an immaterial substance. What makes the human soul a person? It would seem that the human soul is equipped with rational faculties of intellect and volition which enables it to self-reflect. So the human soul is a person, or is personal, because it is endowed with rational faculties of intellect and volition which enable it to have free will.

Well God is very much like an unembodied soul. When you die and your soul is separated from the body, you go to be with the Lord until the resurrection at the end of history – and you are at that time a disembodied soul. God seem to be very much like an unembodied soul. In fact, as a mental or spiritual substance, God just is, an unembodied soul. He is a soul. We naturally equate a rational soul with a person, since the human souls that we are familiar with in our intercourse with one another are all persons. But the reason that human souls are individual persons is because each soul is equipped with one set of rational faculties which are sufficient for personhood. Each one of us has a set of rational faculties and volitional faculties that are sufficient for being an individual person. But suppose that God is a soul who is endowed with three complete sets of rational cognitive faculties, each of which is sufficient for personhood. Then God – even though he is one soul – would not be one person, but he would be three persons. For God would have three centers of self-consciousness, three centers of intentionality (thinking about things), three centers of volition (freely willing to do things). So God, if he has three complete sets of rational faculties, will have three centers of self-consciousness, intentionality, and will, which seems to be exactly what the doctrine of the Trinity would maintain. God would clearly not be three distinct souls because the cognitive faculties that we are talking about are all properties of the same soul. There is one immaterial substance which is so richly endowed with cognitive faculties that it is sufficient for three persons. So God would be a spiritual substance, or soul, which is tri-personal, in contrast to us, who are individual souls, or beings, each of which is one person.

The idea is that we should start by thinking of God as a soul, just as you are a soul; and when you die, you are a disembodied soul. You are at that time an unembodied consciousness, so you are one thing – you are one immaterial substance. That is what I am inviting you to think about God as. God is an immaterial substance, a mind, just like you are when you are an unembodied soul. But this soul is much more richly endowed with cognitive faculties than you are. You just have one set of cognitive faculties, and therefore you are one person. But I want you to try to imagine a soul that is endowed with three sets of cognitive faculties, each of which is sufficient for personhood – rationality, self-consciousness, and freedom of the will. I think that gets you this idea of one thing, one substance, namely, this soul, that is so richly endowed that it is tri-personal.

So Christians never ever believed that Jesus is the Father or that Father is Jesus. Christians always believed that Jesus and Father are two distinct persons just like Sun and sun-Rays are two distinct things. That’s why Jesus is Father’s Son and that’s why Jesus could pray to Father

Let me read you the creedal statement again:

…we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence....

Tik, you said it all in equating the begetting of the Son to procreation and failing to distinguish your teaching as referring specifically to the Incarnation.

I have no interest, until you address that, in further dialogue in which you still imply erroneous understanding which nothing I said warrants.

What you think is hardly something that interests me, and the analogies of men hardly nullify the Scriptures posted, so I will leave off discussion of such a sensitive issue until that time you can actually address what I said rather than what you think.


God bless.
 
Jul 4, 2015
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Matthew 3:16-17
[SUP]16 [/SUP] When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Clearly the Son of God was being Baptized AND the Holy Spirit was descending on Him AND God the Father said this was His Son!

So how can God be three different personalities when clearly in this verse God is three different persons!

This is why tik you are not a True Christian.

What mighty things has God done with the Corrupted Catholic Church considering He destroyed the Corrupted Catholic Church back in the 1500's?

It was 1507 when God brought down the Catholic Church to put His Children back in charge of spreading the Gospel of Salvation which the Catholic Church REFUSED to do!

The Corrupted Catholic Church has never recovered since then.

In 1854 is when the Catholic Church totally turned away from God to Worship and serve Mary as their God. 1854 is when the Catholic Church made it official that Mary was equal to God.
 
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P1LGR1M

Guest
Matthew 3:16-17
[SUP]16 [/SUP] When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Clearly the Son of God was being Baptized AND the Holy Spirit was descending on Him AND God the Father said this was His Son!
This is not the Baptism with the Spirit of God which began on Pentecost.

You need to understand that Christ was God and therefore did not need to be indwelt with Himself.

Secondly, Christ is the Baptizer, not John the Baptist, who made it clear Christ's ministry of baptizing believers was future,, even as Christ does in John 14 and 16.



So how can God be three different personalities when clearly in this verse God is three different persons!

Who said "God is three different personalities?"


This is why tik you are not a True Christian.
Well, I have asked you what this pretty church you belong to is. Seems to me if you think we are not true Christians you would at least answer that question.


What mighty things has God done with the Corrupted Catholic Church considering He destroyed the Corrupted Catholic Church back in the 1500's?

You are saying that no Catholic has done anything good since the 1500s?


It was 1507 when God brought down the Catholic Church to put His Children back in charge of spreading the Gospel of Salvation which the Catholic Church REFUSED to do!
SomGod is dependent on a denomination to convey the Gospel to the world?


The Corrupted Catholic Church has never recovered since then.
The Catholic Church is said to be the richest organization in the world, having more money and real estate than any other single organization in the world.

While I would agree they have nu!erous errors that have to be addressed, that does not mean all Catholics embrace everything their doctrine teaches.


In 1854 is when the Catholic Church totally turned away from God to Worship and serve Mary as their God. 1854 is when the Catholic Church made it official that Mary was equal to God.
And that is not what all Catholics believe.

Now, two questions for you:

1. is the Protestant Church without guilt in regards to persecuting others of differing beliefs?

2...what is this perfect church you are a member of?


God bless.
 
Sep 16, 2014
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Catholic may mean universal, but no Church in the first century was Catholic!

Your argument that Catholic means the only True Church does not hold up epostle. Not when i and others have pointed out many verses in the Scriptures that you Catholics and Catholicism has misinterpreted on purpose!

You really need to wake up and understand epostle that you are actually fighting against Jesus Christ!

No one who has the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit ever says Mary was without sin!

No one who has the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit ever says Mary is our Mediator!

No one who has the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit ever Prays to Mary!

No one who has the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit ever says Mary was assumed bodily into Heaven!

All these are from Satan epostle and by believing in these and teaching these as Truths proves you have never received Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior epostle. Without Jesus you can never enter into Heaven epostle.

Repent epostle and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior before its too late and you die in your sins.
 

epostle

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2015
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This is not the Baptism with the Spirit of God which began on Pentecost.

You need to understand that Christ was God and therefore did not need to be indwelt with Himself.

Secondly, Christ is the Baptizer, not John the Baptist, who made it clear Christ's ministry of baptizing believers was future,, even as Christ does in John 14 and 16.
If I may butt in. ..

John 1:32 - when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.
Scripture Catholic - SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM

Well, I have asked you what this pretty church you belong to is. Seems to me if you think we are not true Christians you would at least answer that question.

The Catholic Church is said to be the richest organization in the world, having more money and real estate than any other single organization in the world.
It is said to be but it isn't true. Vatican wealth is a myth. The CIA World Factbook analyses the economies of every country in the world. Most years shows a deficit. The annual budget smaller than some universities. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/vt.html

While I would agree they have nu!erous errors that have to be addressed, that does not mean all Catholics embrace everything their doctrine teaches.
Non-Catholics choose what they want to believe, Catholics are bound to believe revealed truth as handed down from the Apostles and their successors as expressed in Tradition and Scripture. When Catholics get choosy they are called cafeteria Catholics.

And that is not what all Catholics believe.
Because it isn't true. Here is the full context of Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius IX on the Immaculate Conception (December 8, 1854). Nowhere does it say Mary is equal to God. That is a lie Mec borrowed from some "bible-Christian" hate site. You have to have a good grasp of Luke 1:28 or the document won't make much sense.
Now, two questions for you:

1. is the Protestant Church without guilt in regards to persecuting others of differing beliefs?
Let me help him with the answer.
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: The Protestant Inquisition: "Reformation" Intolerance and Persecution
2...what is this perfect church you are a member of?
Good question.
 
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Sep 16, 2014
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If you look at the Baptism of Jesus Christ we do not see Him being Baptized when He was an Infant. We see Him being Baptized as an adult. So why epostle does Catholicism teach babies have to be Baptized?

Being Baptized is a choice we are to make, not something that is done for us.

Its repenting FIRST and then being Baptized that is taught by God in the Scriptures. Babies cannot repent and babies cannot make a conscience decision to be Baptized.

By claiming Mary was born without sin is claiming Mary IS equal to God because Jesus was born without sin!

Are you Catholics so blind that you cannot even see the Truth that is in front of your nose? Or could it be you do see the Truth but are so corrupted by Satan that you see nothing wrong with lying!
 
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P1LGR1M

Guest
Originally Posted by P1LGR1M
This is not the Baptism with the Spirit of God which began on Pentecost.

You need to understand that Christ was God and therefore did not need to be indwelt with Himself.

Secondly, Christ is the Baptizer, not John the Baptist, who made it clear Christ's ministry of baptizing believers was future,, even as Christ does in John 14 and 16.
If I may butt in. ..
You may. No restriction on answering something someone states in a public forum, lol.


John 1:32 - when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.
Scripture Catholic - SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM
You make the same mistake many do, failing to understand that Christ's Baptism, performed by John...was within the framework of the Law.

John makes it clear that the Baptism Christ would effect (with the Holy Ghost) was something he needed, rather than he baptizing Christ. Had Christ refused to be baptized then it could have been seen as separation from the Covenant of Law, which He could not fulfill if He were found in violation of it. John was a Prophet of God and his baptism was a call to repentance to Israel.



Well, I have asked you what this pretty church you belong to is. Seems to me if you think we are not true Christians you would at least answer that question.

The Catholic Church is said to be the richest organization in the world, having more money and real estate than any other single organization in the world.


It is said to be but it isn't true. Vatican wealth is a myth. The CIA World Factbook analyses the economies of every country in the world. Most years shows a deficit. The annual budget smaller than some universities. https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/vt.html
So there is another organization that owns more real estate than the Catholic Church?
As I said, it is something that is said, and not something that detracts from the point concerning the CC's "never having recovered," though you seem to be supporting the point I debated in pointing out there annual deficit, lol.

The Catholic Church has not suffered to the point where we could say God has removed His blessings from them as was the point that my antagonist was making.


While I would agree they have nu!erous errors that have to be addressed, that does not mean all Catholics embrace everything their doctrine teaches.



Non-Catholics choose what they want to believe,
That is just as erroneous as trying to make all Catholics identical in their beliefs.

I am non-Catholic and I do not "choose what I want to believe," I have no such liberty. I am commanded of God to know what He has commanded, not cherry-pick Scripture to create Doctrine and Practice.

Nor do I give any authority to what men say Scripture teaches, except that which they teach lines up with Scripture and cannot be found to be in conflict with any point of Scripture, which is something we see in most of man's traditions and doctrines.

I have found no System of Theology that does not have problems. None. And I have found certain Systems which have more than a few.


Catholics are bound to believe revealed truth as handed down from the Apostles and their successors as expressed in Tradition and Scripture.
I am pretty familiar with Catholics, and just like any other group...they are diverse in their beliefs. They range from conservative to absolute nut-cases like any other group.


When Catholics get choosy they are called cafeteria Catholics.
And it is just typical to label anyone that disagrees with what we see as truth, eh? lol


And that is not what all Catholics believe.



Because it isn't true.
I agree it isn't true, but, I have spoken with Catholics who affirm Mary as Co-Redemptix and teach that in a context which lends salvific quality to Mary herself.

While this may not be the position of the Catholic Church, that doesn't mean there are no "Catholics" out there teaching it in public forums. You might call them Cafeteria Catholics, but, they identify themselves as Catholics and that is their choice.

And saying these people represent the Catholic Church and her doctrine is just as erroneous as you saying...
Non-Catholics choose what they want to believe,
It is a misrepresentation which is a typical debate ploy used by those who have no desire or capacity for actually addressing the particular and distinctive doctrines which separate the groups and Systems.


Here is the full context of Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius IX on the Immaculate Conception (December 8, 1854). Nowhere does it say Mary is equal to God. That is a lie Mec borrowed from some "bible-Christian" hate site. You have to have a good grasp of Luke 1:28 or the document won't make much sense.
And I am simply not interested in debating Catholic Doctrine, only the Doctrine of the Bible.

We are not going to affirm the truth of God's Word from the teachings of men, but only from the teachings of Scripture. That is the only authoritative source I recognize, which is not a Protestant position, but a position that pre-dates the very Church Herself (and I speak of the Body of Christ).

Scripture is the source Christ used to verify His teachings, and we should all follow that greatest of examples if we seek to be true to His example.


Now, two questions for you:

1. is the Protestant Church without guilt in regards to persecuting others of differing beliefs?


Let me help him with the answer.
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: The Protestant Inquisition: "Reformation" Intolerance and Persecution
I don't have time to look at the link, and to be honest, because I am neither Catholic or Protestant I will leave such proof-pong to you guys.

;)


2...what is this perfect church you are a member of?
Good question.
As I said, I've been looking for that Church, and despite caution from some that I not join it because I would wreck it, lol, I would be very glad to have this question answered, because as I have said, I have simply not found any particular System or group that is...perfect.

Except for the true Body of Christ, whose perfection is positional only, though that is a truth few understand.


God bless.
 
Sep 16, 2014
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If your Heart is not right with God epostle you are wasting your time doing the Sacraments. Judas walked with Jesus. Judas talked with Jesus. Judas had meals with Jesus. But yet Judas never accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior.

Without Jesus as your Lord and Savior epostle, you are wasting your time keeping the Sacraments of the Catholic Church. If you are working for your Salvation by the keeping of the Sacraments from the Catholic Church, then your Heart is not right with God and you are wasting your time keeping the Sacraments from the Catholic Church.

Your Heart HAS to be right with God!

How can your Heart be right with God when you teach the lies of Satan as Truths from God? You can believe all you want that Mary was born without sin, but to teach it as a Truth from God will keep you out of the Will of the Father. If your not doing the Will of the Father, your Heart is not right with God. If your Heart is not right with God then you are wasting your time keeping the Sacraments of the Catholic Church.

Judas was not doing the Will of the Father and neither are you epostle. What you are doing will keep you from entering into Heaven. You may think you will enter into Heaven, but like Judas you will never be allowed to enter.

Like i said before epostle, until you repent and mean it, until you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you will never enter into Heaven. You are a lot like Judas epostle.
 
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P1LGR1M

Guest
If your Heart is not right with God epostle you are wasting your time doing the Sacraments. Judas walked with Jesus. Judas talked with Jesus. Judas had meals with Jesus. But yet Judas never accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior.

Without Jesus as your Lord and Savior epostle, you are wasting your time keeping the Sacraments of the Catholic Church. If you are working for your Salvation by the keeping of the Sacraments from the Catholic Church, then your Heart is not right with God and you are wasting your time keeping the Sacraments from the Catholic Church.

Your Heart HAS to be right with God!

How can your Heart be right with God when you teach the lies of Satan as Truths from God? You can believe all you want that Mary was born without sin, but to teach it as a Truth from God will keep you out of the Will of the Father. If your not doing the Will of the Father, your Heart is not right with God. If your Heart is not right with God then you are wasting your time keeping the Sacraments of the Catholic Church.

Judas was not doing the Will of the Father and neither are you epostle. What you are doing will keep you from entering into Heaven. You may think you will enter into Heaven, but like Judas you will never be allowed to enter.

Like i said before epostle, until you repent and mean it, until you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you will never enter into Heaven. You are a lot like Judas epostle.

Judas was not the only disciple with issues:


Luke 9:54

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]54 [/SUP]And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

[SUP]55 [/SUP]But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.


Salvation is by grace through faith, not flawlessness in Doctrine. You would do well to leave judgment on an eternal basis to the Lord and spend your time simply trying to debate the doctrine itself.


God bless.
 
Sep 16, 2014
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Telling Catholics that they need to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior is not judging that person. Telling Catholics they need the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not judging that person.

Debating Doctrines with Catholics is a waste of time. They refuse to accept anything God says in the Scriptures. They have been brainwashed from birth to accept only what Catholicism teaches. In fact its a Mortal sin for a Catholic to read the Scriptures and accept what the Scriptures say. If a Catholic wants to study the Bible they have to study it with a Catholic Priest AND they have to accept only what the Priests says is the Truth.

If they question what the Priest says, that is a Mortal sin!

Do you see how the Catholic Church has the Catholics bound up in their lies so they cannot question them? To actually question the Priest about the lies they teach IS a Mortal sin accordingly to Catholicism!

This is why epostle refuses to accept anything outside of Catholicism because he is afraid of being excommunicated from the Catholic Church and we all know that Catholicism does teach only those IN the Catholic Church can enter into Heaven.

Do you see how Catholicism has bound up the Catholics? They are afraid of going against what the Pope says. They are afraid of going against what Catholicism says. They have been bound in chains to the Catholic Church.

It takes a lot of courage to leave the Catholic Church and follow God. Not every Catholic can do this.

I did it and i paid the price for it. But it was a price worth paying because i know for sure i am entering into Heaven when i die!
 

epostle

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2015
660
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You may. No restriction on answering something someone states in a public forum, lol.

You make the same mistake many do, failing to understand that Christ's Baptism, performed by John...was within the framework of the Law.
Yes, that is what I said. I agree with you and you call it a mistake. Scroll up and read my quote.

John makes it clear that the Baptism Christ would effect (with the Holy Ghost) was something he needed, rather than he baptizing Christ. Had Christ refused to be baptized then it could have been seen as separation from the Covenant of Law, which He could not fulfill if He were found in violation of it. John was a Prophet of God and his baptism was a call to repentance to Israel.
<sigh>
John 1:32 - when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.

You are re-inventing the wheel.

So there is another organization that owns more real estate than the Catholic Church?
Third world hospitals, orphanages, and medical clinics are real estate venture capital? Or do you mean the property purchased/donated by faithful Catholics over several generations? BTW, the churches don't belong to the Church, they belong to the parishioners. If you bothered to click ob the CIA link that shows the economy of the Vatican, you wouldn't be so mouthy.

As I said, it is something that is said, and not something that detracts from the point concerning the CC's "never having recovered," though you seem to be supporting the point I debated in pointing out there annual deficit, lol.
Some years there is a deficit. Until you show documented evidence of the Church owning lots of real estate, you are just blowing forum flatulence.
The Catholic Church has not suffered to the point where we could say God has removed His blessings from them as was the point that my antagonist was making.
Define "blessings".

That is just as erroneous as trying to make all Catholics identical in their beliefs.
Catholics are free to disagree with the Church, they are not free to rebel. "identical in belief" is hardly the point. What has been consistently taught for 2000 years IS the point.

I am non-Catholic and I do not "choose what I want to believe," I have no such liberty. I am commanded of God to know what He has commanded, not cherry-pick Scripture to create Doctrine and Practice.
Where in scripture are individuals apart from the Church commanded of God to know what He has commanded?

Nor do I give any authority to what men say Scripture teaches, except that which they teach lines up with Scripture and cannot be found to be in conflict with any point of Scripture, which is something we see in most of man's traditions and doctrines.
The authority of Scripture is a Tradition. The Bible came from the Catholic Church, a church did not come from a bible. To deny this fact, you have to re-write 400 years of early church history.

I have found no System of Theology that does not have problems. None. And I have found certain Systems which have more than a few.
Infallibility does not come from systems of theology, it is a gift given by Christ to the Church. It does not mean there can be no sin, and it does not mean there would be no problems. The gates of hell will not prevail, it does not mean the gates of hell will not attack (from within and from without)

Isa. 35:8, 54:13-17 - this prophecy refers to the Church as the Holy Way where sons will be taught by God and they will not err. The Church has been given the gift of infallibility when teaching about faith and morals, where her sons are taught directly by God and will not err. This gift of infallibility means that the Church is prevented from teaching error by the power of the Holy Spirit (it does not mean that Church leaders do not sin!)


Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14,22 - the early Church is identified as the "Way" prophesied in Isaiah 35:8 where fools will not err therein.


Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 - Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.


Matt. 16:18 - Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Also, since the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.


Matt. 16:19 - for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.


Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.


Matt. 28:20 - Jesus promises that He will be with the Church always. Jesus' presence in the Church assures infallible teaching on faith and morals. With Jesus present, we can never be deceived.


Mark 8:33 - non-Catholics sometimes use this verse to down play Peter's authority. This does not make sense. In this verse, Jesus rebukes Peter to show the import of His Messianic role as the Savior of humanity. Moreover, at this point, Peter was not yet the Pope with the keys, and Jesus did not rebuke Peter for his teaching. Jesus rebuked Peter for his lack of understanding.


Luke 10:16 - whoever hears you, hears me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me. Jesus is very clear that the bishops of the Church speak with Christ's infallible authority.

I agree it isn't true, but, I have spoken with Catholics who affirm Mary as Co-Redemptix and teach that in a context which lends salvific quality to Mary herself.
"Co" in co-redemptrix does not mean "equal to". A copilot does not have equal authority as the captain. Mary freely co-operated in Gods plan of salvation. Her role was not incidental, it was required. You are a co-redemptorix every time you pray for someone. Don't make a big deal about nothing.

It is a misrepresentation which is a typical debate ploy used by those who have no desire or capacity for actually addressing the particular and distinctive doctrines which separate the groups and Systems.
I don't use the word lightly. Most of what is posted in this forum are, in fact, misrepresentations of the Catholic faith. What is really taught is not hard to find, the hard part is presenting it in less than 25 words.

And I am simply not interested in debating Catholic Doctrine, only the Doctrine of the Bible.
That's odd, the Bible is a Catholic book!

We are not going to affirm the truth of God's Word from the teachings of men, but only from the teachings of Scripture. That is the only authoritative source I recognize, which is not a Protestant position, but a position that pre-dates the very Church Herself (and I speak of the Body of Christ).
The Patriarchs were sola scripturists?

Scripture is the source Christ used to verify His teachings, and we should all follow that greatest of examples if we seek to be true to His example.
Jesus read from the New Testament?

I don't have time to look at the link, and to be honest, because I am neither Catholic or Protestant I will leave such proof-pong to you guys.
;)

As I said, I've been looking for that Church, and despite caution from some that I not join it because I would wreck it, lol, I would be very glad to have this question answered, because as I have said, I have simply not found any particular System or group that is...perfect.
Perfect is the wrong word.

Except for the true Body of Christ, whose perfection is positional only, though that is a truth few understand.
Howdid the early Church evangelize and overthrow the Roman Empire,survive and prosper almost 350 years, without knowing for sure whichbooks belong in the canon of Scripture?


Whoin the Church had the authority to determine which books belonged inthe New Testament canon and to make this decision binding on allChristians?


Howwere the bishops at Hippo and Carthage able to determine the correctcanon of Scripture, in spite of the fact that they believed all thedistinctively Catholic doctrines such as the apostolic succession ofbishops, the sacrifice of the Mass, Christ's Real Presence in theEucharist, baptismal regeneration, etc?


IfChristianity is a "book religion," how did itflourishduring the first 1500 years of Church history when the vast majorityof people were illiterate?


Jesussaid that the unity of Christians would be objective evidence to theworld that He had been sent by God (John 17:20-23). How can the worldsee an invisible "unity" that exists only in the hearts ofbelievers?


Howdo " nondenominationalists" such as yourself , which hasit's own distinct theology, and often boast that you are “separatedfrom any denomination,” obey God’s command that Christians “allspeak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; butthat ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the samejudgment” (1 Cor. 1:10)?
 
B

Babylonisfalling

Guest
I think the notion that some are saved and some aren't could be applied to every church on the planet.

We also need to remember Luke 6:37 here. None of us are qualified to say who's NOT saved. Even if we're somehow right sometimes, it's still not our place.

Lastly, I think we ALL fail to realize how much theological stuff we can be wrong about and still be saved. God made salvation easy for us.
 

Vdp

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Nov 18, 2015
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There are some of us who are in the Catholic Church who have been saved. Not everyone in the Catholic Church is like epostle. But unfortunately I am seeing more and more people in my Church that are a lot like epostle.
 

Vdp

Banned
Nov 18, 2015
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Actually Catholics are not allowed to disagree with the teachings of the Church. Look at Martin Luther who disagreed with the teaching of the Church. At that time the Pope wanted Martin Luther to be put to death for disagreeing with the Catholic Church.

How can you epostle say the Catholic Church is Infallibility?

Martin Luther pointed out the error of the Catholic Church in its teachings. We know this to be a fact.

I sense in you epostle a Spirit of disobedience. A Spirit that opposes God.