I want to understand the Catholic faith so....
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The problem is Catholics like epostle cannot see nor understand the Truths in the Scriptures.
Romans 3:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP] As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
God says in the Bible that NONE are righteous, no not one. Which means Mary was never righteous. If Mary was never righteous then Mary was a sinner.
Romans 3:23
[SUP]23 [/SUP] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 5:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--
God says in the Bible that ALL have sinned. Last time i checked the word ALL included Mary. Therefore Mary was born a sinner and sinned just like everyone else.
You can believe all you want epostle that Mary is equal to God in her being without sin. BUT, your Heart is not right with God when you teach the commandments of men as Truths from God.
Matthew 15:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' "
God says here epostle your Heart is far from Him when you teach as Doctrines the commandments of men. In VAIN you try to Worship God epostle! God refuses to listen to your prayers to Him because you are teaching the commandments of the Catholic Church.
God cannot and will not listen to your Prayers epostle until you change your Heart. Repent epostle! Confess your sins to Jesus! Not to a Catholic Priest.
You have been deceived and you will continue to be deceived epostle by the Catholic Church. Only God has the Truth.
Romans 3:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP] As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
God says in the Bible that NONE are righteous, no not one. Which means Mary was never righteous. If Mary was never righteous then Mary was a sinner.
Romans 3:23
[SUP]23 [/SUP] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 5:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--
God says in the Bible that ALL have sinned. Last time i checked the word ALL included Mary. Therefore Mary was born a sinner and sinned just like everyone else.
You can believe all you want epostle that Mary is equal to God in her being without sin. BUT, your Heart is not right with God when you teach the commandments of men as Truths from God.
Matthew 15:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' "
God says here epostle your Heart is far from Him when you teach as Doctrines the commandments of men. In VAIN you try to Worship God epostle! God refuses to listen to your prayers to Him because you are teaching the commandments of the Catholic Church.
God cannot and will not listen to your Prayers epostle until you change your Heart. Repent epostle! Confess your sins to Jesus! Not to a Catholic Priest.
You have been deceived and you will continue to be deceived epostle by the Catholic Church. Only God has the Truth.
Jesus never baptized anyone, he commanded the Apostles and their successors to teach and baptize.. Your post is meaningless.
If a Catholic were to believe that, then his infallible opinions would be delusional. He could still be a Catholic, but an ill-informed one. How many Protestants hold scripture as the sole source of infallible authority on baptism? Why do sola scripturists have so many conflicting infallible authorities on what scripture says about that alone? I'll answer your questions, but you avoid or ignore mine altogether.
I should count the number of times I've posted this.
2 Tim 3:
[14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned (TRADITION) and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it (MAGISTERIUM)
[15] and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings (SCRIPTURE) which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
Sola scripturists ignore verse 14 and 15 because it demolishes their position.
The Bible on St. Paul's list comes in third, not first. He actually gives here the traditional Catholic teaching on the three sources of sound teaching.
In verse 15 he goes into an excursus on the Bible. This brief excursus emphasizes the value of the Bible and recommends a fourfold method of exegesis. This verse was used as a proof text for the Quadriga which was the standard Catholic approach to the Bible. The Quadriga method used the following four categories:
Literal/Literary (teaching) - the text as it is written
Analogical (reproof) - matters of faith
Anagogical (correction) - matters of hope/prophecy
Moral (training in righteousness) - matters of charity
The so called reformers rejected all this and instead adopted a more literal approach to biblical exegesis, and Martin Luther was rejected by his contemporaries for ignoring 2 Timothy 3:16.
I must conclude you abuse 2 Timothy 3:16 by removing it from its context to support an unbiblical tradition of men.
Your list is not good works. Practicing the faith gives us a means to obtain grace where we go out into the world and love our neighbor as we love ourselves for the love of God. We don't do good works for salvation. How many encyclicals over 2000 years would it take to convince you otherwise? I don't go to Mass to be a good Catholic, I go to Mass and receive the sacraments to be a better person, hopefully making the world a better place as a result. Sorry this offends you.
Where do you get your information on "rulings"? Snippets out of context from the "bible-Christian" Taliban?
You are an anti-Catholic propagandist, your agenda is based on what you think is true and nothing more.
Dictionaries are good for definitions of words, they do not teach doctrine or theology.
Being excommunicated from the Catholic Church is widely misunderstood: It doesn't mean that you're banned from church and stripped of your Catholicism. Rather, excommunication is a strong, remedial penalty meted out with the hope that it'll wake you up and move you to true repentance — and back into full communion with the faithful. In short, it's reversible. Excommunication is the most severe form of ecclesiastical penalty and is used only as an absolute last resort. Excommunicants remain Catholic because of baptism and still obligated to attend Mass, but they are deprived of all sacraments (except for the Sacrament of Penance). For example, you can go to Mass but not receive the Holy Eucharist. The excommunicated are forbidden from employment or holding any position of authority in a diocese or parish. They are also deprived of a Catholic burial.
Basically, the grounds for excommunication is this: You have committed a grave offense that caused you to be spiritually separated from the Church and the community of the faithful. You have left the Church on your own accord by committing the offense. (But remember, excommunication offers a way to go back!)
The following offenses warrant excommunication as a result of a judgment from a church authority:
The local bishop has the authority to remove most excommunications, but many bishops delegate this power to all their parish priests when it involves a penitent confessing the mortal sin of abortion. This way, the person going to confession can simultaneously have the sin absolved and the excommunication lifted. This is to make it easier for people to go to confession and reconcile themselves with God and the Church, especially after a very emotional, personal, and serious matter, such as abortion.
Some excommunications, however, are so serious that only the pope or his delegate can remove the penalty. For example, if someone desecrates (shows irreverence to) the Holy Eucharist, only the pope can remove that excommunication. Likewise, if a priest attempts to absolve someone guilty of breaking the Sixth or Ninth Commandment with whom he himself participated in that sexual sin, his excommunication is automatic and reserved to Rome. So, too, a bishop who ordains a priest to the order of bishop without prior orders from the pope is automatically excommunicated, and only the pope can remove that excommunication, which applies equally to the ordaining bishop and the bishop being ordained.
Other types of penalties
In addition to excommunication, the Code of Canon Law has other types of penalties:
The Catholic Church is NOT the only church that follows these steps.
That is a lie. Another lie. Another lie. When the arguments get demolished, pull out the purgatory bat.
That's 10 mispresentations/falsehoods in one sentence. I don't reply to psychotic ramblings. One topic at a time, please, not 10.
If a Catholic were to believe that, then his infallible opinions would be delusional. He could still be a Catholic, but an ill-informed one. How many Protestants hold scripture as the sole source of infallible authority on baptism? Why do sola scripturists have so many conflicting infallible authorities on what scripture says about that alone? I'll answer your questions, but you avoid or ignore mine altogether.
I should count the number of times I've posted this.
2 Tim 3:
[14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned (TRADITION) and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it (MAGISTERIUM)
[15] and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings (SCRIPTURE) which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
Sola scripturists ignore verse 14 and 15 because it demolishes their position.
The Bible on St. Paul's list comes in third, not first. He actually gives here the traditional Catholic teaching on the three sources of sound teaching.
In verse 15 he goes into an excursus on the Bible. This brief excursus emphasizes the value of the Bible and recommends a fourfold method of exegesis. This verse was used as a proof text for the Quadriga which was the standard Catholic approach to the Bible. The Quadriga method used the following four categories:
Literal/Literary (teaching) - the text as it is written
Analogical (reproof) - matters of faith
Anagogical (correction) - matters of hope/prophecy
Moral (training in righteousness) - matters of charity
The so called reformers rejected all this and instead adopted a more literal approach to biblical exegesis, and Martin Luther was rejected by his contemporaries for ignoring 2 Timothy 3:16.
I must conclude you abuse 2 Timothy 3:16 by removing it from its context to support an unbiblical tradition of men.
Your list is not good works. Practicing the faith gives us a means to obtain grace where we go out into the world and love our neighbor as we love ourselves for the love of God. We don't do good works for salvation. How many encyclicals over 2000 years would it take to convince you otherwise? I don't go to Mass to be a good Catholic, I go to Mass and receive the sacraments to be a better person, hopefully making the world a better place as a result. Sorry this offends you.
Where do you get your information on "rulings"? Snippets out of context from the "bible-Christian" Taliban?
You are an anti-Catholic propagandist, your agenda is based on what you think is true and nothing more.
Dictionaries are good for definitions of words, they do not teach doctrine or theology.
Being excommunicated from the Catholic Church is widely misunderstood: It doesn't mean that you're banned from church and stripped of your Catholicism. Rather, excommunication is a strong, remedial penalty meted out with the hope that it'll wake you up and move you to true repentance — and back into full communion with the faithful. In short, it's reversible. Excommunication is the most severe form of ecclesiastical penalty and is used only as an absolute last resort. Excommunicants remain Catholic because of baptism and still obligated to attend Mass, but they are deprived of all sacraments (except for the Sacrament of Penance). For example, you can go to Mass but not receive the Holy Eucharist. The excommunicated are forbidden from employment or holding any position of authority in a diocese or parish. They are also deprived of a Catholic burial.
Basically, the grounds for excommunication is this: You have committed a grave offense that caused you to be spiritually separated from the Church and the community of the faithful. You have left the Church on your own accord by committing the offense. (But remember, excommunication offers a way to go back!)
The following offenses warrant excommunication as a result of a judgment from a church authority:
- Pretended celebration of the Holy Eucharist (Mass) or conferral of sacramental absolution by one not a priest
- Violation of confessional seal by interpreter and others
- Procuring of abortion
- Apostasy: The total rejection of the Christian faith.
- Heresy: The obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth, which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith.
- Schism: The rejection of the authority and jurisdiction of the pope as head of the Church.
- Desecration of sacred species (Holy Communion)
- Physical attack on the pope
- Sacramental absolution of an accomplice in sin against the Sixth and Ninth Commandments
- Unauthorized episcopal (bishop) consecration
- Direct violation of confessional seal by confessor
The local bishop has the authority to remove most excommunications, but many bishops delegate this power to all their parish priests when it involves a penitent confessing the mortal sin of abortion. This way, the person going to confession can simultaneously have the sin absolved and the excommunication lifted. This is to make it easier for people to go to confession and reconcile themselves with God and the Church, especially after a very emotional, personal, and serious matter, such as abortion.
Some excommunications, however, are so serious that only the pope or his delegate can remove the penalty. For example, if someone desecrates (shows irreverence to) the Holy Eucharist, only the pope can remove that excommunication. Likewise, if a priest attempts to absolve someone guilty of breaking the Sixth or Ninth Commandment with whom he himself participated in that sexual sin, his excommunication is automatic and reserved to Rome. So, too, a bishop who ordains a priest to the order of bishop without prior orders from the pope is automatically excommunicated, and only the pope can remove that excommunication, which applies equally to the ordaining bishop and the bishop being ordained.
Other types of penalties
In addition to excommunication, the Code of Canon Law has other types of penalties:
- Suspension: The Church forbids a suspended cleric (priest, deacon, or bishop) to exercise his ordained ministry and to wear clerical garb. However, suspension doesn’t deprive the cleric of receiving the sacraments.
- Interdict: This is a temporary penalty that can be applied to one or more persons — or even a whole town or area. Under this punishment, the persons named can’t receive the sacraments, but they aren’t excommunicated, so they still can receive income from a diocese or parish, hold office, and so on. It is lifted when the person repents and seeks reconciliation.
Now you know, but I'm sure you will come up with the same distortions down the road...because you cannot be taught.
The Catholic Church is NOT the only church that follows these steps.
That is a lie. Another lie. Another lie. When the arguments get demolished, pull out the purgatory bat.
That's 10 mispresentations/falsehoods in one sentence. I don't reply to psychotic ramblings. One topic at a time, please, not 10.
Another Catholic lie. You baptize babies because you believe their soul is contaminated with original sin and that to baptize them removes the stain.
Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth. (CCC 1250).
Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth. (CCC 1250).
The problem is the Catholic Church has made itself equal to God in the Truth. Catholics hate and deny Sola Scriptura. In order for the Catholic Church to have Truths from Traditions that God does not have, makes the Truths the Catholics claim to have to be equal with the Truth from God.
Either God is God and is the only authority on the Truth or God is not God and He is powerless and weak. You cannot believe God is Omnipotent and Omniscience and claim you Catholics have Truths God does not have. Its not Protestant vs Catholics. Its Catholics vs God.
I see this so much all the time in the Catholic Church. Putting themselves equal and above God.
How can you believe epostle that a created person like yourself be as great or greater than God? Who created whom? Did God create us or did we create God?
By claiming that the Catholic Church is equal to God in Truths, you epostle are claiming then that God is a created being just like us.
Its not about what YOU want the Truth to be epostle, its all about YOU bowing down to God and Worshiping and serving Him only. You cannot bow down and Worship God and say the Catholic Church have Truths outside of God. Who then exactly is your God epostle?
From what little i have seen you really do not Worship God only. I see Catholicism is also a god you worship. Your not the first one to do this epostle. Most of the people in the Catholic Church and all of the Popes have done what you are doing.
Its not about you being right or wrong epostle. Its all about is will God allow you to enter into Heaven?
Its God we seek after. Its Heaven we seek to enter. You seem to seek only your Pride in only you having the Truth. You are very narrow in your thinking. Seeking out that which tickles your ears.
Either God is God and is the only authority on the Truth or God is not God and He is powerless and weak. You cannot believe God is Omnipotent and Omniscience and claim you Catholics have Truths God does not have. Its not Protestant vs Catholics. Its Catholics vs God.
I see this so much all the time in the Catholic Church. Putting themselves equal and above God.
How can you believe epostle that a created person like yourself be as great or greater than God? Who created whom? Did God create us or did we create God?
By claiming that the Catholic Church is equal to God in Truths, you epostle are claiming then that God is a created being just like us.
Its not about what YOU want the Truth to be epostle, its all about YOU bowing down to God and Worshiping and serving Him only. You cannot bow down and Worship God and say the Catholic Church have Truths outside of God. Who then exactly is your God epostle?
From what little i have seen you really do not Worship God only. I see Catholicism is also a god you worship. Your not the first one to do this epostle. Most of the people in the Catholic Church and all of the Popes have done what you are doing.
Its not about you being right or wrong epostle. Its all about is will God allow you to enter into Heaven?
Its God we seek after. Its Heaven we seek to enter. You seem to seek only your Pride in only you having the Truth. You are very narrow in your thinking. Seeking out that which tickles your ears.
You sound like a Jehovah's Witness or a Seventh Day Adventist. The Church is a servant of the Scriptures.
Material sufficiency means that all the bricks necessary to build doctrine is there in Scripture. However, it also teaches that since the meaning of Scripture is not always clear and that sometimes a doctrine is implied rather than explicit, other things besides Scripture have been handed to us from the apostles: things like Sacred Tradition (which is the mortar that holds the bricks together in the right order and position) and the magisterium or teaching authority of the Church (which is the trowel in the hand of the Master Builder). Taken together, these three things -- Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium -- are formally sufficient for knowing the revealed truth of God.
. . . those who hold to the formal sufficiency of Scripture warn darkly that setting Scripture in the context of Sacred Tradition will inevitably put Scripture under the Church. The fear, in fact, is that to admit the revelatory nature of Sacred Tradition will necessarily subjugate Scripture to merely human agendas.
The Trinity can be proven from Scripture, indeed (material sufficiency), but Scripture Alone as a principle was not formally sufficient to prevent the Arian crisis from occurring. In other words, the decisive factor in these controversies was the appeal to apostolic succession and Tradition, which showed that the Church had always been trinitarian. The Arians could not appeal to any such tradition because their christology was a heretical innovation of the 4th century.
The Arians thus appealed to Scripture Alone. And that is the point Catholics make about this. The Arian formal principle was deficient, so that they could appeal to the Bible Alone and come up with Arianism (just like Jehovah's Witnesses do today). If they had held also to an authoritative Sacred Tradition, this could not have happened because the "tradition of Arianism" was non-existent.
That is mindless Catholic bashing based on stupidity and ignorance. It doesn't deserve further comment.
You give no examples because you don't have any.
For that, you go in my ignorasium, I don't want my screen littered with such pathetically hateful drivel.
Provide official Catholic documents or stop with the hate speech.
All I do is explain and defend the truths the Church teaches. You don't like the truth outside of your own personal perspectives. God did not appoint you to preach your private opinions. What I explain and defend, hopefully, is 2000 years of consistent authoritive teaching. Jesus commissioned the Apostles and their successors to teach, and the succession directly from the Apostles is provable. Your falsehoods are the psychotic rantings of post-reformist cults founded about 100 years ago yet you claim they have authority over the Church Jesus founded. They have taken your mind.
You have seen little, the only honest thing you've said.
Your vicious mindless Catholic bashing has nothing to do with the topic. Did Mary do the will of God? Did Jesus love his mother? You can't answer the most basic questions I put forth but you weigh in swinging.
Why? Because you can't refute my posts and regurgitate the same nonsense of the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Seventh Day Adventists? Which post-reformist cult influences your twisted anti-Catholic thinking?
The difference between you and the ISIS beheading Catholics is one of degree.
Material sufficiency means that all the bricks necessary to build doctrine is there in Scripture. However, it also teaches that since the meaning of Scripture is not always clear and that sometimes a doctrine is implied rather than explicit, other things besides Scripture have been handed to us from the apostles: things like Sacred Tradition (which is the mortar that holds the bricks together in the right order and position) and the magisterium or teaching authority of the Church (which is the trowel in the hand of the Master Builder). Taken together, these three things -- Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium -- are formally sufficient for knowing the revealed truth of God.
. . . those who hold to the formal sufficiency of Scripture warn darkly that setting Scripture in the context of Sacred Tradition will inevitably put Scripture under the Church. The fear, in fact, is that to admit the revelatory nature of Sacred Tradition will necessarily subjugate Scripture to merely human agendas.
The Trinity can be proven from Scripture, indeed (material sufficiency), but Scripture Alone as a principle was not formally sufficient to prevent the Arian crisis from occurring. In other words, the decisive factor in these controversies was the appeal to apostolic succession and Tradition, which showed that the Church had always been trinitarian. The Arians could not appeal to any such tradition because their christology was a heretical innovation of the 4th century.
The Arians thus appealed to Scripture Alone. And that is the point Catholics make about this. The Arian formal principle was deficient, so that they could appeal to the Bible Alone and come up with Arianism (just like Jehovah's Witnesses do today). If they had held also to an authoritative Sacred Tradition, this could not have happened because the "tradition of Arianism" was non-existent.
That is mindless Catholic bashing based on stupidity and ignorance. It doesn't deserve further comment.
You give no examples because you don't have any.
For that, you go in my ignorasium, I don't want my screen littered with such pathetically hateful drivel.
Provide official Catholic documents or stop with the hate speech.
All I do is explain and defend the truths the Church teaches. You don't like the truth outside of your own personal perspectives. God did not appoint you to preach your private opinions. What I explain and defend, hopefully, is 2000 years of consistent authoritive teaching. Jesus commissioned the Apostles and their successors to teach, and the succession directly from the Apostles is provable. Your falsehoods are the psychotic rantings of post-reformist cults founded about 100 years ago yet you claim they have authority over the Church Jesus founded. They have taken your mind.
You have seen little, the only honest thing you've said.
Your vicious mindless Catholic bashing has nothing to do with the topic. Did Mary do the will of God? Did Jesus love his mother? You can't answer the most basic questions I put forth but you weigh in swinging.
Why? Because you can't refute my posts and regurgitate the same nonsense of the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Seventh Day Adventists? Which post-reformist cult influences your twisted anti-Catholic thinking?
The difference between you and the ISIS beheading Catholics is one of degree.
But you are preaching you private opinions epostle when you preach Mary was without sin.
Its not what the Catholic Church says. Its not the Traditions of the Catholics that count.
Its what God says and so far epostle you have made yourself very clear on the fact you believe the teachings of the Catholic Church is above the authority of God. Which in a sense now makes the Catholic Church a Cult. Anyone or any Church that puts itself above God is a Cult.
This site is a Christian chat site. Its not a Catholic Chat site. If you cannot refrain from teaching the lies of the Catholic Church as Truths above God, then you do need to leave this site.
This site is all about discussing the Truth in the Scriptures. Its not about being a forum that you can use to deceive people with the lies from Satan.
We are here to study and learn what God has said in the Scriptures. This site is not for Cults to come in are try to deceive people into following Satan. If you want to debate whats in the scriptures only you are welcomed here. But if all you are here for is to deceive people into accepting the false doctrines of the Catholic Church then you really need to leave this site epostle.
We do not need Catholics here on this site causing problems. We are here to study the Scriptures. If you cannot contain yourself only to the Scriptures from God then you epostle need to leave this chat site.
Its not what the Catholic Church says. Its not the Traditions of the Catholics that count.
Its what God says and so far epostle you have made yourself very clear on the fact you believe the teachings of the Catholic Church is above the authority of God. Which in a sense now makes the Catholic Church a Cult. Anyone or any Church that puts itself above God is a Cult.
This site is a Christian chat site. Its not a Catholic Chat site. If you cannot refrain from teaching the lies of the Catholic Church as Truths above God, then you do need to leave this site.
This site is all about discussing the Truth in the Scriptures. Its not about being a forum that you can use to deceive people with the lies from Satan.
We are here to study and learn what God has said in the Scriptures. This site is not for Cults to come in are try to deceive people into following Satan. If you want to debate whats in the scriptures only you are welcomed here. But if all you are here for is to deceive people into accepting the false doctrines of the Catholic Church then you really need to leave this site epostle.
We do not need Catholics here on this site causing problems. We are here to study the Scriptures. If you cannot contain yourself only to the Scriptures from God then you epostle need to leave this chat site.
Sir, you have several times said you put me on ignore. Presumably because you could not take the Truth. The point is you lie. According to your own dogma you must confess this sin of lying to a priest and do the requisite amount of Our Fathers and Hail mary's to be cleansed of this sin. How that aint the ULTIMATE in works, and how you can twist in your mind that it isn't is truly sad. I mean that in the bottom of my heart.
The Lord does miracles. That He saved me is beyond proof of that. I pray He would perform one in you. In Jesus Holy name I pray.
But we do know all about Indulgences epostle. Indulgences are based on "The Treasury of the satisfactions". The "treasury of the satisfactions" contains the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary and others. Its these good works of Mary and others that are used in the selling of Indulgences.
The Catholic Church dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions.
This is so much nonsense.
What prayers a person says and what good works a person does applies only to that person. But the Catholic Church in her hatred for the Word of God and her LUST for power and Gold, has claimed that the Catholic Church has the right to sell the merits of these Prayers and good works to others who lack Prayers and good works.
This is another example of how corrupted the Catholic Church has become in her lust for power and Gold!
The Catholic Church has never been a servant of God. Its been a servant to Power and Gold only!
The Catholic Church dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions.
This is so much nonsense.
What prayers a person says and what good works a person does applies only to that person. But the Catholic Church in her hatred for the Word of God and her LUST for power and Gold, has claimed that the Catholic Church has the right to sell the merits of these Prayers and good works to others who lack Prayers and good works.
This is another example of how corrupted the Catholic Church has become in her lust for power and Gold!
The Catholic Church has never been a servant of God. Its been a servant to Power and Gold only!
How did we get the Bible?
I have never said or implied such a stupid statement. That is an unsubstantiated insult and a lie. Just because the Church speaks with authority does not mean the authority is above God, it means the authority is from God. You have no divine/human authority in teaching faith and morals. You get it right some of the time, but Protestantism is morally compromised, with contraception, abortion, divorce, gay marriage, euthanasia, on and on, yet you tell me my Church is a cult. The Church stands strong against the onslaughts of the world, while your 20 year old fundie non-denom"churches" sit around complaining about the Big Boogie man. Why? Because she is the oldest and the biggest and you were not born into it? Or because deep down you know the Catholic Church is the one true church founded by Jesus Christ? So you are compelled to judgments based on what you see through a small piece of stained glass?
I haven't taught any lies that I know of. When I see a lie, I reply and expose it. Many in here are schooled in years of bigotry and think the lies they say about the Catholic Church are true. Somebody has to tell them what they are saying is in fact, a lie. If you notice, almost all my posts are defensive, so if ignorant anti-Catholic bigots would stop the lies, I won't have much to say.
That's a serious charge. Certain people accused Jesus of the same thing. He said, "a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand." Well, here we are, 2000 years later and its still ONE Catholic Church, and 30-40000 of yours.
I see you haven't learned anything so far.
Refuting and demolishing lies is not causing problems, and if you keep making the same lies after things have been explained as to why it is a lie, three or four times, then it is you who should leave. Sadism is a sickness, not a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
I have never said or implied such a stupid statement. That is an unsubstantiated insult and a lie. Just because the Church speaks with authority does not mean the authority is above God, it means the authority is from God. You have no divine/human authority in teaching faith and morals. You get it right some of the time, but Protestantism is morally compromised, with contraception, abortion, divorce, gay marriage, euthanasia, on and on, yet you tell me my Church is a cult. The Church stands strong against the onslaughts of the world, while your 20 year old fundie non-denom"churches" sit around complaining about the Big Boogie man. Why? Because she is the oldest and the biggest and you were not born into it? Or because deep down you know the Catholic Church is the one true church founded by Jesus Christ? So you are compelled to judgments based on what you see through a small piece of stained glass?
I haven't taught any lies that I know of. When I see a lie, I reply and expose it. Many in here are schooled in years of bigotry and think the lies they say about the Catholic Church are true. Somebody has to tell them what they are saying is in fact, a lie. If you notice, almost all my posts are defensive, so if ignorant anti-Catholic bigots would stop the lies, I won't have much to say.
That's a serious charge. Certain people accused Jesus of the same thing. He said, "a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand." Well, here we are, 2000 years later and its still ONE Catholic Church, and 30-40000 of yours.
I see you haven't learned anything so far.
Refuting and demolishing lies is not causing problems, and if you keep making the same lies after things have been explained as to why it is a lie, three or four times, then it is you who should leave. Sadism is a sickness, not a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
One thing there is
the truth about the catholics is most of them are not up to reading the holy scriptures . ...
and observed how their beliefs depends on the people in vatican especially from the pope itself . . . ...
:read:
Matthew: 15. 8. This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
:smoke: we are not against to any sects but only unto their doctrines . . ...
:happy: as what they say 8)
:read:
Acts: 28. 28. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
:now: ask this question to any catholic priest if they believe unto this verses that the salvation is sent unto the gentiles . ...
God bless us all always
:ty:
the truth about the catholics is most of them are not up to reading the holy scriptures . ...
and observed how their beliefs depends on the people in vatican especially from the pope itself . . . ...
:read:
Matthew: 15. 8. This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
:smoke: we are not against to any sects but only unto their doctrines . . ...
:happy: as what they say 8)
:read:
Acts: 28. 28. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
:now: ask this question to any catholic priest if they believe unto this verses that the salvation is sent unto the gentiles . ...
God bless us all always
:ty:
Last edited:
Absolutely false. The Catholic "church" has ruled that without the sacraments, you forfeit your salvation. You simply cannot be saved.
From Catholic.com: "Since the sacraments are the ordinary means through which Christ offers the grace necessary for salvation, and the Catholic Church that Christ established is the ordinary minister of those sacraments, it is appropriate to state that salvation comes through the Church."
"Since Jesus established the Catholic Church as necessary for salvation, those who knowingly and willingly reject him or his Church cannot be saved."
What "No Salvation Outside the Church" Means | Catholic Answers
The Catechism says: "Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (CCC 846)"
Your "church" teaches; without performing the sacraments, through the Catholic church alone, no one can be saved.
This is in direct contradiction to the Bible which says that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. That whosoever believes in Jesus, shall have everlasting life. Salvation comes by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus alone. It is offered as a free gift apart from the sacraments of, and membership in, the Catholic "church".
Do you think your "church" invented the word anathema? It did not. And it has always meant "cursed" or "damned." You can play all the word games you want, but you can't change the meaning, or what your "church's" councils intended by it's declarations.
You won't reply because you have no defense. Instead, you personally insult. But okay, I'll play your little game:
Here is the topic:
Did Jesus pay for all sin, for all people, for all time, by His sacrifice on the cross? And if so, what is there left to atone for?
From Catholic.com: "Since the sacraments are the ordinary means through which Christ offers the grace necessary for salvation, and the Catholic Church that Christ established is the ordinary minister of those sacraments, it is appropriate to state that salvation comes through the Church."
"Since Jesus established the Catholic Church as necessary for salvation, those who knowingly and willingly reject him or his Church cannot be saved."
What "No Salvation Outside the Church" Means | Catholic Answers
The Catechism says: "Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (CCC 846)"
Your "church" teaches; without performing the sacraments, through the Catholic church alone, no one can be saved.
This is in direct contradiction to the Bible which says that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. That whosoever believes in Jesus, shall have everlasting life. Salvation comes by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus alone. It is offered as a free gift apart from the sacraments of, and membership in, the Catholic "church".
Do you think your "church" invented the word anathema? It did not. And it has always meant "cursed" or "damned." You can play all the word games you want, but you can't change the meaning, or what your "church's" councils intended by it's declarations.
You won't reply because you have no defense. Instead, you personally insult. But okay, I'll play your little game:
Here is the topic:
Did Jesus pay for all sin, for all people, for all time, by His sacrifice on the cross? And if so, what is there left to atone for?
Actually epostle we received the Bible from God the Holy Spirit who Inspired men what to write. We had the Bible long before you Catholics appeared on the scene.
The Bible came from God epostle not the Catholic Church. In fact all the books in the Bible were determined back in the 1st century by the True Christians. All you Catholics did was to add the books that were written by Satan. This is all the Catholics did.
The Catholic Church did not write the Bible. The Catholic Church did not chose which books belonged in the Bible. All the Catholics did was to desecrate the Word of God by adding the books written by Satan.
How can the Catholic Church speak with any Authority when God never chose the Catholic Church? It was the Christian Church in the 1st century that God chose.
How can the Catholic Church say its the True Church when it sells the merits of Prayers and good works of other people for Gold to other people? It always has been about Gold and Power in the Catholic Church. It never has been about God.
Indulgences is just another example of how the Catholic Church has been corrupted. How can The Catholic Church believe that the merits of my Prayers are theirs to sell to someone else? How can the Catholic Church believe the merits of my good works are theirs to sell to someone one else?
The Catholic Church today is nothing more than a Cult. A Cult that follows Mary and Gold!
Like i said, this is a Christian chat site for the edification of God. Not a Catholic chat site for the Worshiping of Mary.
You need to leave epostle and take your god Mary with you.
The Bible came from God epostle not the Catholic Church. In fact all the books in the Bible were determined back in the 1st century by the True Christians. All you Catholics did was to add the books that were written by Satan. This is all the Catholics did.
The Catholic Church did not write the Bible. The Catholic Church did not chose which books belonged in the Bible. All the Catholics did was to desecrate the Word of God by adding the books written by Satan.
How can the Catholic Church speak with any Authority when God never chose the Catholic Church? It was the Christian Church in the 1st century that God chose.
How can the Catholic Church say its the True Church when it sells the merits of Prayers and good works of other people for Gold to other people? It always has been about Gold and Power in the Catholic Church. It never has been about God.
Indulgences is just another example of how the Catholic Church has been corrupted. How can The Catholic Church believe that the merits of my Prayers are theirs to sell to someone else? How can the Catholic Church believe the merits of my good works are theirs to sell to someone one else?
The Catholic Church today is nothing more than a Cult. A Cult that follows Mary and Gold!
Like i said, this is a Christian chat site for the edification of God. Not a Catholic chat site for the Worshiping of Mary.
You need to leave epostle and take your god Mary with you.
No, she has not. If a a person willfully rejects God and his mercy, then he cannot be saved,. But no Catholic, not even the Pope, can make that judgement. But you do.
What part of "ordinary means" don't you understand? "Knowingly and willingly reject him" covers a lot of territory. You can't reject what you don't know. You fall into the category of "not knowing". Intellectual assent has it's place, but it isn't conviction. We see you as separated from the Church, but still a part of the Church whether you like it or not. Taking one sentence out of an article completely out of context to force fit it into your agenda is straining a gnat and swallowing a camel. Read the whole thing. It doesn't say what you want it to say. And it's intended for Catholics, not for hostile anti-Catholics to slice-and-dice at your whim.
You are blind to the condition: "knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ" the proactive word is "knowing" which you can't seem to understand. In other words, you have to be a Catholic for this to apply. No, you are interpreting through Protestant lens. Sacraments are not performed. You get entertainment and performances in Protestant churches, I've seen enough of them to know. You are pressing hard to make the Church look like some kind of exclusive salvation club. This conflicts with your misunderstanding:
817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."[SUP]269[/SUP] The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism[SUP]270[/SUP] - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.[SUP]271
[/SUP]818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."[SUP]272
[/SUP]
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"[SUP]273[/SUP] are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."[SUP]274[/SUP] Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,[SUP]275[/SUP] and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."[SUP]276
The Catholic Church hands out the olive branch to Protestants and some of you spit on it. [/SUP]
Free gift, yes, not a free ticket. The Church recognizes salvation in other churches so she is not the all exclusive club you mistakenly think she is. You are projecting your man-made criteria onto the Church and it doesn't work. And it doesn't work on half the Protestant churches that disagree with you in varying degrees.
Your terminology is outdated and unbiblical. Through generations of use, beginning even with the usage of St. Paul in the New Testament, anathema came to mean something other than its literal, etymological meaning — particularly in Latin, and particularly in the councils of the Church. Anathema sit (“Let him be anathema”) became a legal formula, something repeated by the councils to announce a particular, traditional judgment. When the councils pronounced holders of a doctrine anathema, it marked a formal excommunication from the Church: nothing more and nothing less.
Excommunication, too, is often misunderstood; even though it is a biblical doctrine that many Protestants practice (I have heard them refer to it euphemistically as “disfellowship,” but the concept is the same): to remove one who is unrepentant in sin or incorrigibly teaching error from one’s church body, as St. Paul recommended in 1 Corinthians 5, even using language evocative of anathema (“deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh”, v. 5).
But the Catholic Church’s model of excommunication is just as St. Paul’s: it is not a pronouncement of eternal damnation, but a disciplinary measure designed to motivate the sinner to repentance and reconciliation. The full verse above reads, “Deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” The goal of excommunication is not damnation, but salvation. It is the Church’s mission to love and lead the lost to salvation in Christ, not to hate or damn to hell (hello Westboro Baptist Church). Excommunication is tough love, the Holy Mother Church kicking her prodigal son out of the house until he gets his act together. And just as with the father of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11–32), it is the Church’s great joy to accept and embrace her lost son back as soon as he repents and seeks forgiveness (cf. 2 Corinthians 2:5–11). “Let him be Anathema”: Not what many Protestants think it means | The Lonely Pilgrim
I discussed this in post #943. Scroll up. Either you missed it or ignored it.
Was the Church wrong in declaring anathema on the heretic Arius for his blasphemous teachings?
Was the Church wrong in declaring anathema on Sabellianism (Early 3rd Century)?
Pelagianism (5th Century)?
Nestorianism (5th Century)?
Catharism (11th Century)?
No, Budman, it's not me that is fixed on a pre-New Testament meaning of anathema. Maybe you would like to embrace all the heretics who were anathematized because you don't like how the Church used the term (no longer used by the Church for 500 years so you are blowing hot air over nothing. )
21. Many Protestants take a dim view towards Christian history in general, esp. the years from 313 (Constantine's conversion) to 1517 (Luther's arrival). This ignorance and hostility to Catholic Tradition leads to theological relativism, anti-Catholicism, and a constant, unnecessary process of "reinventing the wheel." 150 Reasons Why I'm Catholic (You Should Be Too!)
I don't insult people, I challenge arrogant bigotry and lies. Go over all my post and quote where I have directly insulted or attacked a person. Good luck, you will need it.
Jesus redeemed the human race, but we play a part in our salvation, a free gift, not a ticket. This post is already too long. What you are demanding is a 20 page treatise on soteriology that you would ignore anyway. Here's a helpful link:
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Salvation, Justification, and "Faith Alone" (Index Page for Dave Armstrong)
What part of "ordinary means" don't you understand? "Knowingly and willingly reject him" covers a lot of territory. You can't reject what you don't know. You fall into the category of "not knowing". Intellectual assent has it's place, but it isn't conviction. We see you as separated from the Church, but still a part of the Church whether you like it or not. Taking one sentence out of an article completely out of context to force fit it into your agenda is straining a gnat and swallowing a camel. Read the whole thing. It doesn't say what you want it to say. And it's intended for Catholics, not for hostile anti-Catholics to slice-and-dice at your whim.
You are blind to the condition: "knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ" the proactive word is "knowing" which you can't seem to understand. In other words, you have to be a Catholic for this to apply. No, you are interpreting through Protestant lens. Sacraments are not performed. You get entertainment and performances in Protestant churches, I've seen enough of them to know. You are pressing hard to make the Church look like some kind of exclusive salvation club. This conflicts with your misunderstanding:
817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."[SUP]269[/SUP] The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism[SUP]270[/SUP] - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.[SUP]271
[/SUP]818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."[SUP]272
[/SUP]
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"[SUP]273[/SUP] are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."[SUP]274[/SUP] Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,[SUP]275[/SUP] and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."[SUP]276
The Catholic Church hands out the olive branch to Protestants and some of you spit on it. [/SUP]
Free gift, yes, not a free ticket. The Church recognizes salvation in other churches so she is not the all exclusive club you mistakenly think she is. You are projecting your man-made criteria onto the Church and it doesn't work. And it doesn't work on half the Protestant churches that disagree with you in varying degrees.
Your terminology is outdated and unbiblical. Through generations of use, beginning even with the usage of St. Paul in the New Testament, anathema came to mean something other than its literal, etymological meaning — particularly in Latin, and particularly in the councils of the Church. Anathema sit (“Let him be anathema”) became a legal formula, something repeated by the councils to announce a particular, traditional judgment. When the councils pronounced holders of a doctrine anathema, it marked a formal excommunication from the Church: nothing more and nothing less.
Excommunication, too, is often misunderstood; even though it is a biblical doctrine that many Protestants practice (I have heard them refer to it euphemistically as “disfellowship,” but the concept is the same): to remove one who is unrepentant in sin or incorrigibly teaching error from one’s church body, as St. Paul recommended in 1 Corinthians 5, even using language evocative of anathema (“deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh”, v. 5).
But the Catholic Church’s model of excommunication is just as St. Paul’s: it is not a pronouncement of eternal damnation, but a disciplinary measure designed to motivate the sinner to repentance and reconciliation. The full verse above reads, “Deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” The goal of excommunication is not damnation, but salvation. It is the Church’s mission to love and lead the lost to salvation in Christ, not to hate or damn to hell (hello Westboro Baptist Church). Excommunication is tough love, the Holy Mother Church kicking her prodigal son out of the house until he gets his act together. And just as with the father of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11–32), it is the Church’s great joy to accept and embrace her lost son back as soon as he repents and seeks forgiveness (cf. 2 Corinthians 2:5–11). “Let him be Anathema”: Not what many Protestants think it means | The Lonely Pilgrim
I discussed this in post #943. Scroll up. Either you missed it or ignored it.
Was the Church wrong in declaring anathema on the heretic Arius for his blasphemous teachings?
Was the Church wrong in declaring anathema on Sabellianism (Early 3rd Century)?
Pelagianism (5th Century)?
Nestorianism (5th Century)?
Catharism (11th Century)?
No, Budman, it's not me that is fixed on a pre-New Testament meaning of anathema. Maybe you would like to embrace all the heretics who were anathematized because you don't like how the Church used the term (no longer used by the Church for 500 years so you are blowing hot air over nothing. )
21. Many Protestants take a dim view towards Christian history in general, esp. the years from 313 (Constantine's conversion) to 1517 (Luther's arrival). This ignorance and hostility to Catholic Tradition leads to theological relativism, anti-Catholicism, and a constant, unnecessary process of "reinventing the wheel." 150 Reasons Why I'm Catholic (You Should Be Too!)
I don't insult people, I challenge arrogant bigotry and lies. Go over all my post and quote where I have directly insulted or attacked a person. Good luck, you will need it.
Jesus redeemed the human race, but we play a part in our salvation, a free gift, not a ticket. This post is already too long. What you are demanding is a 20 page treatise on soteriology that you would ignore anyway. Here's a helpful link:
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Salvation, Justification, and "Faith Alone" (Index Page for Dave Armstrong)
Dear Blain, i can understand your questions about the rcc. I am coming from a protestant background(name christian), but my mother was catholic and the most of my relatives are catholics. Well at first you have to see the offical doctrine about the rcc. And then you have to see the faith of the base. the volk. So my relatives pray to some saints, if they f.e lost something. To be seen in church seems important. There are believers under rcc, i am shure, but the most which i know have no personal relationship to Jesus Christ. The pray to mother Mary and to saints but not to God. It is a work religion, the people has to work out their salvation through good deeds and following the church rules. It is common not from the heart. They have in common no insurance of heaven. I spoke once to an nun. She was in a higher position and she said, nobody can know to come into the heaven. First he has to go through the fire to pay for the sins. They opposing in common evangelical/fundament (in the bible) christians. But you will find different kind of rcc. Its depend in country and culture. Often they following still their old/former religion, because their is no change in the heart. And of course you find them from liberal till ultraorthodox. From their offical doctrine its difficult to see in them brothers and sisters. But its right,make your own picture
It is true epostle that a person who rejects God cannot enter into Heaven. Its also true epostle that a person who is an Idolater cannot enter into Heaven either.
Galatians 5:19-21
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]IDOLATRY, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
No person who worships an Idol will ever be allowed into Heaven epostle. Being devoted to Mary makes you an Idolater and you are committing Idolatry.
Praying the "Hail Mary" is Idolatry.
Praying the Rosary is Idolatry.
Bowing down to a statue of Mary is Idolatry.
We do know for a fact that Pope John Paul II bowed down to statues of Mary and Prayed to Mary. Pope John Paul II will never enter into Heaven. Neither will you epostle if you keep on being devoted to Mary.
Its not about keeping the Sacraments epostle, its all about who is your God. Being devoted to Mary makes her your God.
Exodus 20:2-5
[SUP]2 [/SUP] "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] You shall have no other gods before Me.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
You are breaking the Commandment we are not to have other gods before God.
We are NOT to judge people in the World who have never accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. We ARE to judge a so called Brother for what he does.
1 Corinthians 5:11-13
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
[SUP]13 [/SUP] But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."
We are to and can judge you epostle for what you do. You are an Idolater. We are told by God not to have anything to do with people like you epostle. In fact even God calls you an evil person for what you do epostle.
Galatians 5:19-21
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]IDOLATRY, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
No person who worships an Idol will ever be allowed into Heaven epostle. Being devoted to Mary makes you an Idolater and you are committing Idolatry.
Praying the "Hail Mary" is Idolatry.
Praying the Rosary is Idolatry.
Bowing down to a statue of Mary is Idolatry.
We do know for a fact that Pope John Paul II bowed down to statues of Mary and Prayed to Mary. Pope John Paul II will never enter into Heaven. Neither will you epostle if you keep on being devoted to Mary.
Its not about keeping the Sacraments epostle, its all about who is your God. Being devoted to Mary makes her your God.
Exodus 20:2-5
[SUP]2 [/SUP] "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] You shall have no other gods before Me.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
You are breaking the Commandment we are not to have other gods before God.
We are NOT to judge people in the World who have never accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. We ARE to judge a so called Brother for what he does.
1 Corinthians 5:11-13
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
[SUP]13 [/SUP] But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."
We are to and can judge you epostle for what you do. You are an Idolater. We are told by God not to have anything to do with people like you epostle. In fact even God calls you an evil person for what you do epostle.
L
Hi, I am a Catholic blogger and I caught a pingback from epostle quoting one of my posts. While I generally subscribe to the common adages about arguing on the Internet, and the tenor of this conversation is already pretty unpleasant, I felt compelled to come to my brother Christian's assistance and am here to cast my frijoles into the fracas.
Mr. Henderson, your response to epostle seems hostile in the extreme and not the way Christians are supposed to talk to one another. It's predicated solely on the charge that Catholicism amounts to "idolatry" -- but let's take a closer look at that.
"Idolatry" in the biblical and common sense of the word is the practice of worshipping images or other human creatures as gods -- more generally, worshipping something as a god that is not a god. And I'm sorry, just because you charge that asking the intercession of Mary or other saints is "idolatry" does not make it so.
Catholics don't -- and no, Pope John Paul II didn't -- "bow" to statues. Kneeling is a posture of prayer (as is standing), and sure, the pope and most other Catholics have been known to kneel near statues, in front of altars, at their pews, and in various other places for prayer. I have also witnessed Protestants kneel before their open Bibles (and I used to do myself as Protestant) -- so if the mere posture of lowering oneself in front of an object amounts to worship of it, am I to understand that such Protestants are also "idolators"?
Does a man being devoted to his mother make her his God? What if he remains devoted to her even after she passes on to the next life? Is that also "idolatry"?
The context of Scripture is quite clear that the mere making of an image does not amount to "idolatry" -- since God Himself commands the Israelites to fashion images on more than a few occasions (cf. the cherubim on the atonement cover of the Ark of the Covenant (Exodus 25:17–22, 37:7–9) and woven into the fabric of the tabernacle (Exodus 26:1, 31, 36:8, 35); the bronze serpent in the desert (Numbers 21:4–9); the elaborate carvings and adornments of Solomon’s Temple (1 Kings 6–7). So no, "idolatry" apparently involves something more than this: the actual intention to elevate a created thing as a god and to worship it.
Mary is not a god and no Catholic holds her to be that.
I'm afraid your charges fall substantially short of the truth. You have no basis or standard by which to judge or condemn Mr. epostle as a fellow believer, let alone to accuse him of being "evil." Jesus called His people to love one another. Why don't we strive to do that rather than attacking or condemning one another? It's clear that there are differences of doctrine here. That's well and good. I think the original poster posted saying he'd like to learn more. So why don't we discuss our doctrinal understandings in charity and respect and try to leave the rancor aside?
Mr. Henderson, your response to epostle seems hostile in the extreme and not the way Christians are supposed to talk to one another. It's predicated solely on the charge that Catholicism amounts to "idolatry" -- but let's take a closer look at that.
"Idolatry" in the biblical and common sense of the word is the practice of worshipping images or other human creatures as gods -- more generally, worshipping something as a god that is not a god. And I'm sorry, just because you charge that asking the intercession of Mary or other saints is "idolatry" does not make it so.
Catholics don't -- and no, Pope John Paul II didn't -- "bow" to statues. Kneeling is a posture of prayer (as is standing), and sure, the pope and most other Catholics have been known to kneel near statues, in front of altars, at their pews, and in various other places for prayer. I have also witnessed Protestants kneel before their open Bibles (and I used to do myself as Protestant) -- so if the mere posture of lowering oneself in front of an object amounts to worship of it, am I to understand that such Protestants are also "idolators"?
Does a man being devoted to his mother make her his God? What if he remains devoted to her even after she passes on to the next life? Is that also "idolatry"?
The context of Scripture is quite clear that the mere making of an image does not amount to "idolatry" -- since God Himself commands the Israelites to fashion images on more than a few occasions (cf. the cherubim on the atonement cover of the Ark of the Covenant (Exodus 25:17–22, 37:7–9) and woven into the fabric of the tabernacle (Exodus 26:1, 31, 36:8, 35); the bronze serpent in the desert (Numbers 21:4–9); the elaborate carvings and adornments of Solomon’s Temple (1 Kings 6–7). So no, "idolatry" apparently involves something more than this: the actual intention to elevate a created thing as a god and to worship it.
Mary is not a god and no Catholic holds her to be that.
I'm afraid your charges fall substantially short of the truth. You have no basis or standard by which to judge or condemn Mr. epostle as a fellow believer, let alone to accuse him of being "evil." Jesus called His people to love one another. Why don't we strive to do that rather than attacking or condemning one another? It's clear that there are differences of doctrine here. That's well and good. I think the original poster posted saying he'd like to learn more. So why don't we discuss our doctrinal understandings in charity and respect and try to leave the rancor aside?
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Mr. wolfwint, while I will be the first to admit that there are many in the Catholic "volk" who are poorly catechized and have poor foundations in the faith, I would respectfully argue that it's far more important to judge a church by what the church teaches than what any of her sheep do. So many in the world fall into the trap of rejecting all Christianity because "Christians are hypocrites", "Christians sin just as much as I do", etc., and many have even left the Church of Christ out of similar disaffection. If members of the flock believe something false, then yes, it's the fault of the shepherds for failing to properly guide them -- but the fact is that sheep wander. Does the fact that someone believes something false have any bearing on the truth? Is it not more truthful to judge the Church according to her doctrine than by the worst abuses you can catalogue among the faithful? The things you have named here are not representative of the true teachings of the Catholic Church.
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In fact, Mr. Mec99, the canon of the Bible (that is, what books were to be in it) was not substantially settled until the fourth century, with quite a number of books of both the Old Testament and New Testament still being discussed and discerned (in the New Testament, notably, Jude, 2 Peter, and Revelation were among the last books to be universally accepted as scriptural). What finally settled the matter were councils of the Church -- generally, each local church held its own council to discern what books would be accepted in their communion and what would not. There was no such thing as "the Bible" until the invention of the printing press in the fifteenth century: each of the scriptural books was seen as a separate writing.
As for "the Catholic Church adding books": I'm afraid not. The books of the Old Testament that Catholics supposedly "added" -- that is, the deuterocanonical books or "apocrypha" -- were included in the canon of Scripture by many of the earliest Christians and were almost universally considered scriptural from about the fourth century to the sixteenth century. They were included in all the earliest printings of the Bible, including Protestant ones. They were not "added" by Catholics, but removed by Protestants.
As for "Satan writing them": These same books were part of the Greek Septuagint edition of the Old Testament -- the very same edition that every author of the New Testament and Jesus Himself quotes from freely. If Satan had any part in writing the Scriptures from which Jesus quoted, then you have deeper problems on your hands than you realize.
Just what do you suppose the Catholic Church is -- and when do you suppose it "came on the scene"? In fact, the Church of Christ is first on record as being called "Catholic" ("Universal") by Ignatius of Antioch, an early bishop and martyr, about the year A.D. 107.
Funny, I go to my country Catholic church every week for Mass and see neither "gold" nor "power" -- only the power of God, and the praise of Him. Your charges are empty.
The Catholic Church does not "follow gold." The Catholic Church does not "worship Mary." Mary is not a God and no Catholic holds her as such. Catholics love, praise, and glorify God and God alone. This site, so far as I can tell, welcomes all Christians and even non-Christians for respectful discussion. Pardon me, but it seems you're the one not being very respectful, not Mr. epostle.
As for "the Catholic Church adding books": I'm afraid not. The books of the Old Testament that Catholics supposedly "added" -- that is, the deuterocanonical books or "apocrypha" -- were included in the canon of Scripture by many of the earliest Christians and were almost universally considered scriptural from about the fourth century to the sixteenth century. They were included in all the earliest printings of the Bible, including Protestant ones. They were not "added" by Catholics, but removed by Protestants.
As for "Satan writing them": These same books were part of the Greek Septuagint edition of the Old Testament -- the very same edition that every author of the New Testament and Jesus Himself quotes from freely. If Satan had any part in writing the Scriptures from which Jesus quoted, then you have deeper problems on your hands than you realize.
Just what do you suppose the Catholic Church is -- and when do you suppose it "came on the scene"? In fact, the Church of Christ is first on record as being called "Catholic" ("Universal") by Ignatius of Antioch, an early bishop and martyr, about the year A.D. 107.
Funny, I go to my country Catholic church every week for Mass and see neither "gold" nor "power" -- only the power of God, and the praise of Him. Your charges are empty.
The Catholic Church does not "follow gold." The Catholic Church does not "worship Mary." Mary is not a God and no Catholic holds her as such. Catholics love, praise, and glorify God and God alone. This site, so far as I can tell, welcomes all Christians and even non-Christians for respectful discussion. Pardon me, but it seems you're the one not being very respectful, not Mr. epostle.
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