Some conclusions I've made and want to start a debate
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[FONT="] cgaviria, [/FONT]
[FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]Since your intention is to debate, may I pick your No. 1, I quote:[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="][/FONT]First and foremost I believe in Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God and was made manifest in the flesh to us, and died, and was resurrected, and in him we have salvation.[FONT="][/FONT]
I suppose everybody believes on this. For a debate:
How come there are different recognition or identification of Jesus Christ being preached today:
1. 1. That JESUS CHRIST is only a man and not God (This is the Arian doctrine that some people believe)
2. That JESUS CHRIST is only a “mighty or junior God” because the FATHER is the “Almighty God” (This is the JEHOVAH doctrine followed by some people)
3. That JESUS CHRIST is the “name” of the FATHER and HOLY SPIRIT (This is the “Oneness doctrine” espoused by Sabellius many years ago.)
4. That JESUS CHRIST is both God and Man, and He is the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] person of the Blessed Trinity (This is preached by the greater segment of Christianity)
Is it not interesting to discuss the TRUE CHRIST that we may not be subject to His rebuke in the following?
[FONT="]John 8:19[/FONT][FONT="] Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. [/FONT]
[FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]Since your intention is to debate, may I pick your No. 1, I quote:[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="][/FONT]First and foremost I believe in Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God and was made manifest in the flesh to us, and died, and was resurrected, and in him we have salvation.[FONT="][/FONT]
I suppose everybody believes on this. For a debate:
How come there are different recognition or identification of Jesus Christ being preached today:
1. 1. That JESUS CHRIST is only a man and not God (This is the Arian doctrine that some people believe)
2. That JESUS CHRIST is only a “mighty or junior God” because the FATHER is the “Almighty God” (This is the JEHOVAH doctrine followed by some people)
3. That JESUS CHRIST is the “name” of the FATHER and HOLY SPIRIT (This is the “Oneness doctrine” espoused by Sabellius many years ago.)
4. That JESUS CHRIST is both God and Man, and He is the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] person of the Blessed Trinity (This is preached by the greater segment of Christianity)
Is it not interesting to discuss the TRUE CHRIST that we may not be subject to His rebuke in the following?
[FONT="]John 8:19[/FONT][FONT="] Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. [/FONT]
Hello James,
If the above were somehow true, then we would all still be in our sins, as there would have been no payment for our sins. Also, in that case, God would be found to be a liar, because regarding Christ the scripture says:
"You will not abandon me to the grave. You will not allow your Holy One to see decay" (Ps.16:10)
The above is a prophecy regarding the bodily resurrection of Christ. Regarding this, Paul says the following:
"But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied."
If the above were somehow true, then we would all still be in our sins, as there would have been no payment for our sins. Also, in that case, God would be found to be a liar, because regarding Christ the scripture says:
"You will not abandon me to the grave. You will not allow your Holy One to see decay" (Ps.16:10)
The above is a prophecy regarding the bodily resurrection of Christ. Regarding this, Paul says the following:
"But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied."
I totally agree with you. However Muslims don't believe Christ died for sins
I have found discussions with them to be pointless. They will quote the bible when it suits them, but if you quote anything that shows their beliefs to be wrong, they simply reply.
The bible is corrupted, texts have been changed from what was originally written
I have found discussions with them to be pointless. They will quote the bible when it suits them, but if you quote anything that shows their beliefs to be wrong, they simply reply.
The bible is corrupted, texts have been changed from what was originally written
Only if Micheal is an angel which I do not believe he is. Now you clearly differ but here is the reality. The word angel means messenger and can refer to either an angelic being or a messenger of any kind.
I believe when one studies all the occurrences of Michael and what he does it becomes clear that it is Christ.
Christ was hidden in times past and thus the name rightly given, Michael, Who is like God? The answer is the one who was thus named, even Christ.
not only this but archangel or chief messenger is a suitable title as Christ is the express image of the fathers person. He is indeed the greatest the chief messenger from God.
so lets have a look at the verses:
Dan_10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
When is an angel referred to as one of the chief princes? But Christ is the prince of peace.
Dan_10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
IS an angel Daniels prince? or is Christ Daniels prince?
If Gabriel is such a trusted messenger then who is this chief messenger who alone is greater than Gabriel and can hold against Satan the greatest of Gods created angels?
Dan_12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Is it an angel who will in the last days stand for us? Or is it when God/Jesus our High priest stands up to protect us?
Jud_1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Is it an angel that argues with the devil or is it the prince of life who holds the keys of life and death who may argue over Moses Body?
Rev_12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Is the war against another angel or against God himself? Who is Satan fighting? Satan has the angels that follow Him but who do the angels in heaven follow? Another angel or Christ?
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Is it the voice of an angel that brings life to the dead or the voice of Christ?
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
In the end It is Jesus who is like God,
It is Jesus who is the highest messenger of God in fact God himself.
It is Jesus who has the keys to life and death.
It is Jesus who can hold against the enemy.
It is Jesus who will raise the dead by his own voice.
It is Jesus who is the prince of peace.
It is Jesus who stands for us in the last days.
So when all considered I do not think that Michael is an angel in the sense of angelic being but Christ the Lord. You may disagree but I have never seen anything to suggest that any angel has the ability or right to do these things.
I believe when one studies all the occurrences of Michael and what he does it becomes clear that it is Christ.
Christ was hidden in times past and thus the name rightly given, Michael, Who is like God? The answer is the one who was thus named, even Christ.
not only this but archangel or chief messenger is a suitable title as Christ is the express image of the fathers person. He is indeed the greatest the chief messenger from God.
so lets have a look at the verses:
Dan_10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
When is an angel referred to as one of the chief princes? But Christ is the prince of peace.
Dan_10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
IS an angel Daniels prince? or is Christ Daniels prince?
If Gabriel is such a trusted messenger then who is this chief messenger who alone is greater than Gabriel and can hold against Satan the greatest of Gods created angels?
Dan_12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Is it an angel who will in the last days stand for us? Or is it when God/Jesus our High priest stands up to protect us?
Jud_1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Is it an angel that argues with the devil or is it the prince of life who holds the keys of life and death who may argue over Moses Body?
Rev_12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Is the war against another angel or against God himself? Who is Satan fighting? Satan has the angels that follow Him but who do the angels in heaven follow? Another angel or Christ?
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Is it the voice of an angel that brings life to the dead or the voice of Christ?
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
In the end It is Jesus who is like God,
It is Jesus who is the highest messenger of God in fact God himself.
It is Jesus who has the keys to life and death.
It is Jesus who can hold against the enemy.
It is Jesus who will raise the dead by his own voice.
It is Jesus who is the prince of peace.
It is Jesus who stands for us in the last days.
So when all considered I do not think that Michael is an angel in the sense of angelic being but Christ the Lord. You may disagree but I have never seen anything to suggest that any angel has the ability or right to do these things.
Jud_1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
So God argued with satan over the body of moses, but would not bring accusation against him, he simply rebuked him. That doesn't sound right to me
So God argued with satan over the body of moses, but would not bring accusation against him, he simply rebuked him. That doesn't sound right to me
Good question, but still who but God can dispute with Satan over life and death. Satan brings death, Christ brings life.
The interesting part is that Moses appears when Jesus is transfigured and He speaks to Jesus about His death to come. So Jesus raised Moses before He had paid the price for his sins. Probably what the argument was about.
The interesting part is that Moses appears when Jesus is transfigured and He speaks to Jesus about His death to come. So Jesus raised Moses before He had paid the price for his sins. Probably what the argument was about.
Nice thought, The verse does not say that Michael "could not" it says he does not boldly bring accusation against Him. It contextually is pitted against Humans who speak spitefully against others.
I think you are reading this wrong, There is a word that helps, it is "railing" accusation the actual word means: to speak evil about someone. The word is predominantly translated as blasphemy. Now let me ask you does God speak evil when he accuses like Humans do as is the context:
Jud 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
Note the point.
It does not say "can not" but basically does not.
It does not say accusation only but accusing with evil speaking. But rather just rebukes. God corrects and speaks the truth but does not vilify others as our own fruits do this.
I think you are reading this wrong, There is a word that helps, it is "railing" accusation the actual word means: to speak evil about someone. The word is predominantly translated as blasphemy. Now let me ask you does God speak evil when he accuses like Humans do as is the context:
Jud 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
Note the point.
It does not say "can not" but basically does not.
It does not say accusation only but accusing with evil speaking. But rather just rebukes. God corrects and speaks the truth but does not vilify others as our own fruits do this.